Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[GodsGrace]

He wasn't. That simple. Post #912 by atpollard quite eloquently proves that Judas never believed, was never saved, and was always different than the other 12 disciples.

P.S.
Post no. 912 proves nothing since all the scripture Atpollard posts is AFTER Jesus sent out the 12 in Mathew.
This is an important aspect of this topic - I feel as though it is not understood.

Wondering

 

[dirtfarmer]

Hi Dirtfarmer,
I said the above in post no. 910.
But then this would mean that the other Apostles weren't saved either. So we have to discard this reason.
Right?
Please see my next reply to Atpollard and could you comment, please.

Wondering

hello wondering , dirtfarmer here

Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the gospel by which we have faith in the resurrection of Christ and receive salvation. Paul received salvation on the Damascus Road through the resurrected Christ. Prior to this he believed salvation was keeping the law. The belief of Israel was that a "messiah" would come, over throw the Romans and establish an earthly kingdom. We know this from Acts 1:6 when the disciples ask the risen Lord would he "restore again the kingdom of Israel".

Romans 3:30 states " Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." The difference between "by faith" and "through faith". By faith is looking forward to the cross and through faith is looking back to the cross. Only a remnant of Israel was saved. In Romans 10:1 Paul said;" Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." In verse 2 he states; " For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." In verse 3 Paul says that "For they are ignorant of God's righteousness:" What is God's righteousness but the crucified savior. " and going about to establish their own righteousness": the keeping of the whole law. " have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
The next verse,4, tells us ," For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one the believeth."

 

[daninthelionsden]

Possibly.
I will grant that Matthew 10:1-16 is the strongest evidence for Judas being a true follower and not always a wolf in sheep's clothing. If it said specifically that Judas performed those acts, I would not bother arguing against this point. However, note carefully what it actually does say. It says the Apostles collectively received power and collectively performed miracles. It does not explicitly state that each and every Apostle performed each and every act. Were 12 demons cast out of 12 people, one by each Apostle? Is it possible that one apostle cast 4 demons out of 4 different people and each of the other apostles cast out no demons? Were 12 sick people healed, one by each apostle? Is it possible that two apostles healed 100 people between them and the other 10 had no opportunity to heal anyone?

I am simply applying what we know about how the Holy Spirit dispenses gifts among the body and asking if it is reasonable or unreasonable to think that the Holy Spirit might have done the same among the apostles. Does the wording in the verse support this as a possibility?

It seems to me that it is at lest a possibility in Matthew 10 that Judas was always a wolf on sheep clothing, outwardly appearing as one of the faithful, but inwardly never being a believer. This is why over and over, Jesus points out that one of the 12 is unsaved. Jesus lost none EXCEPT THE SON OF PERDITION (John 17:12) that scripture might be fulfilled. Peter exclaims 'We believe' and Jesus respond ONE OF YOU IS A DEVIL (John 6:69-70). When Jesus says 'You are clean' he quickly adds BUT NOT ALL OF YOU (John 13:10).

So it seems at least plausible from the scriptural evidence that Judas did nothing more than proclaim the news that the Messiah had arrived while others of the 12 performed the collective miracles that we are quick to ascribe to the man that Jesus singled out as one of the 12, but not a true follower ... the 'son of perdition', 'a devil', and 'unclean'.

The question has been asked 'does God ever empower an unbeliever to perform miracles?' The assumption being 'no' and the implication being that if Judas was empowered then he must have been 'saved' (per the OP title) 'for a while'. Respectfully, I believe that I can demonstrate the answer is YES, God does empower unbelievers and, therefore, even if Judas was empowered as an Apostle, it does not guarantee his being 'saved for a while'.

Was Balaam's Donkey saved when God worked miracles through the donkey? (Numbers 22)

What we know Judas did, with complete certainty is:
(John 12:6) Judas stole from the group's funds.
(Matthew 26:16) Judas watched for an opportunity to betray him.
(Luke 22:48) Judas betrayed him with a kiss.
(Matthew 27:5) Judas hung himself.

Placing the veiled references to what Judas may or may not have done on one side of the scale, and Jesus statements about him and what we know he did with certainty on the other side of the scale it doesn't really seem like a close call to me.

Could Judas have been a faithful believer at some early point? Sure, anything is possible.
Does scripture prove that he was? No, not even close.
He was a disciple, following Jesus around. He was an Apostle, one chosen by Jesus for a special honor. He appears always to also have been a thief and a puppet of Satan sent to betray the Christ.
A wolf in sheep clothes. Son of perdition, a devil, unclean.

The Gospels were all written in hindsight. The authors were recording past events and the mentioning of Judas sprinkled throughout the story does not indicate anyone knew or suspected Judas of anything. The Disciples were astonished any of them were going to betray Jesus at the Last Supper. When Jesus spoke of Judas, He was stating the obvious to Himself but to the bewilderment of the other disciples. God sees our past, present and future when He looks at us. Jesus knew Judas had a weakness and that this weakness about money would be his downfall. In all probability Judas actively partook in casting out demons and healing the sick ( this took faith )and this is why the disciples were all the more astonished at the Last Supper. The indication is only Jesus knew.

 

[chessman]

I do wish you'd explain the difference between a believer and a genuine believer.

With respect to salvific belief: a genuine believer is one who is born again by the Holy Spirit of God and indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Thus, with respect to salvific belief, a 'believer' can be a genuine believer (and thus genuinely be saved) or a non-genuine believer (and thus not saved).

An Atheist, for an example of a believer who is not saved (a non-genuine believer), is a person who believes no God exists. A universalist believer is someone who believes all people will be saved. A person that believes "genuine believers" can be separated from the love of Jesus Christ is someone who does not believe this site's Statement of Faith:

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."​

The second paragraph is incorrect.

No, it's correct. See the verses I posted that prove Judas was unclean yet the other 11 were already clean.

Even in the old testament people were saved.
Hebrews 11 They were saved by faith.

Hebrews 11 doesn't say "they were saved by faith". Nor does it mention whether Judas was clean or not. So, your referring to Heb 11 doesn't support your claim that my second paragraph is incorrect.

They (the OT faithful), who had faith, obtained a "good testimony" by their faith. They "pleased God" by their faith and He "rewarded" them for it in various ways. Yet still, these all died, not having received eternal life (just yet). They saw it afar off, sure. And were promised to receive it later.

Hebrews 11:39-40 (NKJV) And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us. ​

At some point, Jesus did realize Judas would betray Him, but NOT at the time frame which you state.

Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray Him. See John 6:64-71 (occurs early in Jesus' ministry) for proof of the correctness of my claim and incorrectness of yours above.

Are you saying that only persons who agree with the SOF can be on this forum??

No.

Why do you continue to use the SOF as a defense for yourself??

Because it is obvious that many here do not actually believe this site's SoF. Which is Biblically based and a very commonly published SoF.

It is of no help to you, only biblical references can help you (or me).

I posted the Biblical references that support my claims. And that support the SoF's claims that I mentioned.

 

[atpollard]

In all probability Judas actively partook in casting out demons and healing the sick ( this took faith )

What evidence is there of this?
Just to be clear that it is not Judas that I am picking on here, but a willingness to make broad statements that go beyond the what the text actually states. Is there and evidence that every apostle cast out a demon and healed a sick person? Rather than pick on Judas, let's pick on Stephen. Can you find a scripture that indicates that Stephen specifically performed either of these two miracles?

I have had to deal with the nonsense that 'everyone who is saved will speak in tongues' crowd, so I am sensitive to any claim that the Holy Spirit distributes all gifts to all people the same way. That is NOT what is taught over and over in the OT and the NT. So I am unwilling to blindly swallow the camel that all apostles did everything that the bible claims any apostle had done. Please provide some evidence, I welcome correction from Scripture proving me wrong. All I see is an oft quoted blanket statement about what Jesus empowered the Apostles to do collectively, just as the Church is empowered to do certain things collectively without each member being gifted to perform every function.

 

[GodsGrace]

hello wondering , dirtfarmer here

Paul stated in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. This is the gospel by which we have faith in the resurrection of Christ and receive salvation. Paul received salvation on the Damascus Road through the resurrected Christ. Prior to this he believed salvation was keeping the law. The belief of Israel was that a "messiah" would come, over throw the Romans and establish an earthly kingdom. We know this from Acts 1:6 when the disciples ask the risen Lord would he "restore again the kingdom of Israel".

Romans 3:30 states " Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith." The difference between "by faith" and "through faith". By faith is looking forward to the cross and through faith is looking back to the cross. Only a remnant of Israel was saved. In Romans 10:1 Paul said;" Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." In verse 2 he states; " For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge." In verse 3 Paul says that "For they are ignorant of God's righteousness:" What is God's righteousness but the crucified savior. " and going about to establish their own righteousness": the keeping of the whole law. " have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
The next verse,4, tells us ," For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to every one the believeth."

Hi Dirtfarmer

I very much like how you explained this:

Romans 3:30 states " Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcisionby faith, and uncircumcision through faith." The difference between "by faith" and "through faith". By faith is looking forward to the cross and through faith is looking back to the cross.

Thanks!

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

How could JESUS, our LORD AND SAVIOR, not have know Judas was NEVER saved???

Of course there is no way He could NOT have known. As God, He is omniscient. Further, He actually said that Judas was "not clean", meaning, obviously that he wasn't saved. John 13:6-11
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Why would Jesus have annointed him and sent him out with the other 11 if he wasn't saved?
Did Jesus make a mistake??

The Bible doesn't tell us why He commissioned him along with the saved 11, who believed that He was the Messiah.

But we all can be assurred that Jesus never made a mistake. He knew all along that Judas was the one who would betray Him, as indicated by His very words in John 6:64-71

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[GodsGrace]

Of course there is no way He could NOT have known. As God, He is omniscient. Further, He actually said that Judas was "not clean", meaning, obviously that he wasn't saved. John 13:6-11
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8“No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.


The Bible doesn't tell us why He commissioned him along with the saved 11, who believed that He was the Messiah.

But we all can be assurred that Jesus never made a mistake. He knew all along that Judas was the one who would betray Him, as indicated by His very words in John 6:64-71

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

I give up FreeGrace.
People here have their minds made up and don't really listen. I don't have all that much time since I'm not actually sitting here when my name shows up on the members online list.

SO, apparently you don't understand that your scripture up above means NOTHING to me because you apparently don't understand my point.

Your scripture, John, comes a long time AFTER Mathew 10 when Jesus annointed the Apostles.
So IT'S IRRELEVANT to your point.

And, BTW, Jesus was NOT omniscient while on earth. Nor was he omnipresent or omnipotent.

Seems like you should know something simple like that.



Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

With respect to salvific belief: a genuine believer is one who is born again by the Holy Spirit of God and indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Thus, with respect to salvific belief, a 'believer' can be a genuine believer (and thus genuinely be saved) or a non-genuine believer (and thus not saved).

An Atheist, for an example of a believer who is not saved (a non-genuine believer), is a person who believes no God exists. A universalist believer is someone who believes all people will be saved. A person that believes "genuine believers" can be separated from the love of Jesus Christ is someone who does not believe this site's Statement of Faith:

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."​

Chessman,
There is NO DIFFERENCE between a believer and a genuine believer.
A "believer" refers to a Christian person who truly believes in Jesus and is born again and trusts in Him for their salvation.

There is no such thing as a genuine believer. ALL believers are genuine.

Now, if you want to say that everyone believes in SOMETHING, this is correct. Even atheist believe in something. They believe everything was created out of nothing. A very interesting belief, BTW.

But when you ask someone if they are a believer, it us UNDERSTOOD that you mean a Christian believer in Christ.

Also, SALVIFIC BELIEF, refers to a belief in Jesus that goes BEYOND just believing that He was a human person that lived at some point in time. THIS is NOT salvific belief.

Salvific belief refers to a belief that brings to salvation: That is: Trusting in Jesus, and believing that He died for your sins and that he died on the cross and rose again after 3 days and has made atonement for you.​

No, it's correct. See the verses I posted that prove Judas was unclean yet the other 11 were already clean.


Hebrews 11 doesn't say "they were saved by faith". Nor does it mention whether Judas was clean or not. So, your referring to Heb 11 doesn't support your claim that my second paragraph is incorrect.

They (the OT faithful), who had faith, obtained a "good testimony" by their faith. They "pleased God" by their faith and He "rewarded" them for it in various ways. Yet still, these all died, not having received eternal life (just yet). They saw it afar off, sure. And were promised to receive it later.

Hebrews 11:39-40 (NKJV) And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.​

The verses you posted about Judas being unclean comes at the END of Jesus' ministry.

Hebrews 11 does not speak about faith and how the O.T. saints were not saved by faith?????
I'm not making any further statement on this. Just open your bible to Hebrews 11 and read.
So WHEN did these O.T. men actually receive their salvation? You say they saw if far off.
How far off?
Where were they when they died?
This is really toooo elementary.​

Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray Him. See John 6:64-71 (occurs early in Jesus' ministry) for proof of the correctness of my claim and incorrectness of yours above.

I'm sorry to inform you that John 6:64-71 occurs AFTER Mathew 10:1-8

Mathew 10 happens at the second year of Jesus' ministry.
John 6 happens in the middle of the third year of His ministry.

Please supply a source if you do not agree with this.

My sources are:
Chronological Order of Gospel Events
The Parrallel Gospels: Chronological List of Events

Because it is obvious that many here do not actually believe this site's SoF. Which is Biblically based and a very commonly published SoF.


I posted the Biblical references that support my claims. And that support the SoF's claims that I mentioned.

Your biblical references do not support anything according to the points I've made which are apparently not understood.

Wondering

 

[atpollard]

I'm sorry to inform you that John 6:64-71 occurs AFTER Mathew 10:1-8

I have no desire to split hairs over chronology, but allow me to make a point and ask a question.
John 6:64-71 states (whenever it was stated) that Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING".
Is John 6 true or not?
If it is true, then doesn't 'Jesus knew from the beginning' mean that Jesus knew from the beginning? Jesus chose an Apostle that Jesus knew 'from the beginning' would betray Jesus.

 

[atpollard]

Your scripture, John, comes a long time AFTER Mathew 10 when Jesus annointed the Apostles.

For what little it might be worth, I get your point. I have no response because I have nothing definitive one way or another to prove conclusively that Judas did believe, or that he did not believe at the moment of Matthew 10. Either seems possible, although his faith (if he had one) was clearly not a faith that endured to the end.

I didn't want you to think that no one got it.
It is just not conclusive proof one way or another ... which probably says something in and of itself.

 

[GodsGrace]

For what little it might be worth, I get your point. I have no response because I have nothing definitive one way or another to prove conclusively that Judas did believe, or that he did not believe at the moment of Matthew 10. Either seems possible, although his faith (if he had one) was clearly not a faith that endured to the end.

I didn't want you to think that no one got it.
It is just not conclusive proof one way or another ... which probably says something in and of itself.

I appreciate the above post. I feel the same.
It's interesting because it brings up other points.
For instance, did Jesus know at the beginning of His ministry how long it would last?
When He said, My time has not yet come...John 2, WHICH time? His ministry of His death?
Did He know the plan of betrayal? He was not omniscient. Why would He send out an unsaved person to preach repentance and God's Kingdom? An unbeliever could not understand God's Kingdom, let alone explain it.

I agree wholeheartedly that by the end he was lost.
Judas was always listed last as an Apostle. Of course, the Gospels were written after the fact so this is if no value. The writers just listed them in order of importance, a very human thing to do.

Many questions - as often happens.

Will be thinking on John 6.

Wondering

 

[WIP]

WIP,
Satan is not a son of God.
Men are sons of God.
Angels are created beings of which one third of them were cast out of heaven and out of the government of God because they rebelled against Him.
Ezekiel 28:12-15
Isaiah 14:12-17

The angels who remained in heaven with God would, in all likelyhood, be very adverse to sinning. It's correct to say that man can sin, but God's angels cannot.

Satan could not be saved. He is by far the most lost creature of all and would like to see us follow in his footsteps.
He is lost because He rebelled against God, just as lost humans do.

Wondering

Can one who is not a son of God enter heaven? As I read Job I get the understanding that Satan's interraction with God took place in Heaven for that is where God is. Also, Isaiah 14 indicates that Satan came from heaven. Having been a sinner from the beginning, how could he be in heaven and still be a sinner?

 

[WIP]

Read it again.
It says "Satan also came among them."
It did not say, Satan is also one of them."

I understand where you're coming from but I have already shown how this Scripture could be taken in another way. Obviously, both ways can't be correct so I'm searching for the correct understanding.

 

[Jim Parker]

As I read Job I get the understanding that Satan's interraction with God took place in Heaven for that is where God is.

So you think God is confined to a place called "heaven"?
God is everywhere.
Psa 139 (NKJV)
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning,
And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
And Your right hand shall hold me.

 

[JLB]

non-genuine believer

Man made terms to prop up man made doctrine.

Please show us from scripture where this term,
"Non-genuine believer " is found ?


JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

I understand where you're coming from but I have already shown how this Scripture could be taken in another way. Obviously, both ways can't be correct so I'm searching for the correct understanding.

The manner in which the two are presented (sons of God and Satan) is a literary device which separates them and indicates that they are different types.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please show us from scripture where this term, "Non-genuine believer " is found ?

The term "submarine" is not found in scripture.
Does that mean there is no such thing as a submarine?

 

[JLB]

I have no desire to split hairs over chronology, but allow me to make a point and ask a question.
John 6:64-71 states (whenever it was stated) that Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING".
Is John 6 true or not?
If it is true, then doesn't 'Jesus knew from the beginning' mean that Jesus knew from the beginning? Jesus chose an Apostle that Jesus knew 'from the beginning' would betray Jesus.

Jesus knew two different things, in this passage, from the beginning.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. John 6:64

Who THEY were who did not believe.
Who would betray Him.

Can you define, from the context, who THEY were who did not believe.

We know who it was that betrayed Him.

How can we know from the surrounding context, who THEY were who didn't believe?

I know.

Do you?

If you don't know who THEY were who didn't believe, then how can you be sure that Judas, was among the group who didn't believe?


JLB

 

[atpollard]

If you don't know who THEY were who didn't believe, then how can you be sure that Judas, was among the group who didn't believe?

Just for the record, I haven't claimed that he was.
I just claimed that Jesus knew Judas would betray him.

... and, yes, from the context, I know who 'they' are.