Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[MarkT]

I give up FreeGrace.
People here have their minds made up and don't really listen. I don't have all that much time since I'm not actually sitting here when my name shows up on the members online list.

SO, apparently you don't understand that your scripture up above means NOTHING to me because you apparently don't understand my point.

Your scripture, John, comes a long time AFTER Mathew 10 when Jesus annointed the Apostles.
So IT'S IRRELEVANT to your point.

And, BTW, Jesus was NOT omniscient while on earth. Nor was he omnipresent or omnipotent.

Seems like you should know something simple like that.



Wondering

So you're not going to accept anything Jesus said about Judas if it comes after Mt. 10?

 

[MarkT]

We know his word made them clean John 15: 3 and we know Judas was not clean. John 13:10-11 So we know his word was not in Judas.

 

[atpollard]

So you're not going to accept anything Jesus said about Judas if it comes after Mt. 10?

Do you have anything that is clearly applicable to Judas before Jesus anointed him with power in Matthew 10?
I went looking, but came up with lots of 'maybe and maybe not' verses. All of the clear verses on Judas seem to apply to late in the ministry. If you have proof of bad faith on Judas part from the beginning, I'd love to see it.

 

[JohnDB]

Just for the record, I haven't claimed that he was.
I just claimed that Jesus knew Judas would betray him.

... and, yes, from the context, I know who 'they' are.

I find that the Judas account is a fascinating one.

He was the keeper of the money bag.
He was a chosen apostle...Even though many others were rejected as even disciples.

Jesus knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him.

And Judas of Iscariot (named after Judas Maccabee) was the only apostle from the tribe of Judah. (Iscariot was a city in the tribe of Judah's territory)

 

[daninthelionsden]

What evidence is there of this?
Just to be clear that it is not Judas that I am picking on here, but a willingness to make broad statements that go beyond the what the text actually states. Is there and evidence that every apostle cast out a demon and healed a sick person? Rather than pick on Judas, let's pick on Stephen. Can you find a scripture that indicates that Stephen specifically performed either of these two miracles?

I have had to deal with the nonsense that 'everyone who is saved will speak in tongues' crowd, so I am sensitive to any claim that the Holy Spirit distributes all gifts to all people the same way. That is NOT what is taught over and over in the OT and the NT. So I am unwilling to blindly swallow the camel that all apostles did everything that the bible claims any apostle had done. Please provide some evidence, I welcome correction from Scripture proving me wrong. All I see is an oft quoted blanket statement about what Jesus empowered the Apostles to do collectively, just as the Church is empowered to do certain things collectively without each member being gifted to perform every function.

First I am sorry others used the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as some manipulative way to try and validate/invalidate your walk with Christ. No one stands between ourselves and our Lord and we are told to let each work out their own salvation. Christians are to facilitate each others walk and not to stand as road blocks. Those who attempt this tend to expose themselves as spiritual midgets.
Jesus did not give out blanket gifts. He gave specific powers to specific people to carry out a specific task. This was not Pentecost. Just the fact that these given powers were specifically targeted serve as an indication that Judas participated. If Judas had been showing the reservations to fully participate then the other disciples would have been suspicious. They weren't idiots. Why else would they have been so surprised when Jesus said one would betray Him?

 

[GodsGrace]

So you're not going to accept anything Jesus said about Judas if it comes after Mt. 10?

Yes. In fact I do accept it.
By the time of the John verses, Judas was lost and Jesus knew it.

 

[GodsGrace]

First I am sorry others used the Gifts of the Holy Spirit as some manipulative way to try and validate/invalidate your walk with Christ. No one stands between ourselves and our Lord and we are told to let each work out their own salvation. Christians are to facilitate each others walk and not to stand as road blocks. Those who attempt this tend to expose themselves as spiritual midgets.
Jesus did not give out blanket gifts. He gave specific powers to specific people to carry out a specific task. This was not Pentecost. Just the fact that these given powers were specifically targeted serve as an indication that Judas participated. If Judas had been showing the reservations to fully participate then the other disciples would have been suspicious. They weren't idiots. Why else would they have been so surprised when Jesus said one would betray Him?

Terrific point!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I find that the Judas account is a fascinating one.

He was the keeper of the money bag.
He was a chosen apostle...Even though many others were rejected as even disciples.

Jesus knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him.

And Judas of Iscariot (named after Judas Maccabee) was the only apostle from the tribe of Judah. (Iscariot was a city in the tribe of Judah's territory)

John,

Judas and Jesus were both of the tribe of Judah. Good point.
Judgement as to the salvation of a soul belongs only to God, but I'm making an exception in this case!

The question is WHEN did Jesus realize Judas would betray Him?
After all, He was not omniscient and he did pick Judas. @danintnelionsden has made excellent points
And my point is that, chronologically, Mathew and the anointing of the 12, comes before John 6, when Jesus now realizes that Judas will betray Him... When Jesus annointed Judas in Mathew for service, in all likelyhood Jesus believed him to be saved. Surely Jesus must have known the state of his soul.

I don't even think he might have been lost at the point of his betrayal since Jesus told him to go and do what he must do, but perhaps at the time he becomes distraught and kills himself.


John 13:27
Jesus said, What you do, do quickly.
Jesus is authorizing Judas to go to the Sanhedrin.
Judas is doing what His master tells him to do.
Only later does Judas realize that he has sealed his master's fate and feels sorry for his action.
I say, feels sorry and Not Repent because we do not know if he ever repented unto salvation.
Probably not.

Also, I'd like to mention Luke 22:23. The apostles began to discuss among themselves who it would be that would "betray" Jesus. This would mean that to them they all seemed to be saved since they could not tell who the betrayer would be. To them, Judas was not different from the others.

The word Betray could also be discussed, but it would bring us too far out.

Comments?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no desire to split hairs over chronology, but allow me to make a point and ask a question.
John 6:64-71 states (whenever it was stated) that Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING".
Is John 6 true or not?
If it is true, then doesn't 'Jesus knew from the beginning' mean that Jesus knew from the beginning? Jesus chose an Apostle that Jesus knew 'from the beginning' would betray Jesus.

John 6:64-71 is indeed an interesting statement.

But what did Jesus know from the beginning?
I checked several bibles, including YLT.
When reading the bible we always have to remember that God did not sit at a computer and type it out - men wrote the words under inspiration from the Holy Spirit. This is different, in that what the men wrote may not always sound exactly as what they meant.

So, John 6:64-71

Disciples were following Jesus. Some of them turned away because they found the saying about their having to eat His flesh to be too much to take.

The writer, John, now tells us that Jesus turned to the 12 and said, Do You Also Want to Leave?
Peter tell Jesus, To Whom Shall We Go?
In verse 71 we know for sure that Jesus knows that Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, was going to betray Him.

So in verse 64 John tell us that Jesus knew from THE BEGINNING who THEY were that did not believe and thus would walk away. Here Jesus is talking about His dicsiples, NOT the apostles. The Beginning refers to whom He knew would not believe.

THEN John also tells us that Jesus also knew who would betray Him.

No problem - as I've stated, by the time of John's statements, Jesus DID KNOW who would betray Him.

It's two different statements. This would make sense in accordance with the fact that Jesus was not omniscient while on Earth and it took Him time to know who would betray Him.

Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

All of Israel (at the time of the Roman occupation) was looking for the Messiah. Indeed there had been several people claiming to be a Messiah and had gathered together small to large armies and met up with the Roman army and got slaughtered. Acts 5:36-37 (Refusal to pay taxes and tribute to Rome being their common theme...After Alexander the great all Caesars claimed to be a god)

Praying for God to send the Messiah was part of the customary prayer said at the morning and evening incense offering at the Temple. (Like Zachariah did when he met Gabriel)

Now it was when Andrew and John heard John the Baptist call Jesus the Messiah any doubt was removed from the Apostles as to who Jesus was. John and Andrew both wanted to be Jesus' disciples...So did Peter. (John 1: 40-41)
Although none were officially called into discipleship/apostle status until John the Baptist was imprisoned it wasn't new information that Jesus was the Messiah.

What was rather starting to the Apostles was that their Messiah was God's Son. The water into wine, calming of the storm, walking on water, and the test of the deaf/mute man speaking these miracles could only be done by God. The real driving out of demons in the Galilee region got everyone's attention....So did Jesus' preaching style. It was all in prose.

So when they were in Northern Israel at Caesarea (Phillipi) and Peter says that Jesus is the son of God AND the Messiah...It's not new news... After all it had been 3 years already. All 12 of them were there then... Including Judas.

No one didn't believe that Jesus was God's Son.

So...What else do we know?

That most Jews thought that the Messiah was going to bring about God's Kingdom (like what was talked about in Zachariah and Ezekiel)
That the disgusting Roman Empire would be gone and righteousness would be everywhere. Israel (as in the days of Solomon's empire) would rule the world. These Apostles (just like David's Mighty Men) would be appointed to high places of importance in God's Kingdom.

Judas of Iscariot was never doubted. He carried the Treasury. He was responsible for handing out money to the poor and safekeeping it as it was received from wealthy patrons. Granted he helped himself to the poor box instead of just living off of what his family had provided him with. (But this shows his motivation)

When Judas got the idea of betraying Jesus...It wasn't like it was a new idea either. Jesus had said something about it several times already. The Apostles had discussed it amongst themselves several times.

So why would Judas do such a thing?

Because as we read the different Gospel accounts it's obvious that these 12 guys were ordinary men. They weren't theologians or even exceptionally bright. They were your average schmucks. Whom had a lot of bad theology between their ears. Jesus straitened out a lot of this...But not everything. Peter kept making mistakes long after Jesus ascended.

So...Judas knew that Jesus was God's Son...He was counting on that fact.
Judas also knew that Jesus was truly humble...Never once had Jesus acted in his own self interests. (Except for the perfume incident)

What one thing was it that the Apostles had the hardest time believing?

That God would allow his own son to die.
(Peter rebuked Jesus privately for saying this)

So much so that this was what Judas was counting on...That God the Father wouldn't allow it... And instantly institute God's Kingdom. (Of which he (Judas) would be a major part).
And Jesus sent him to do it... Quickly.

 

[FreeGrace]

Your scripture, John, comes a long time AFTER Mathew 10 when Jesus annointed the Apostles.
So IT'S IRRELEVANT to your point.

Maybe what you don't understand is that each of the gospels is RELEVANT within them. I wasn't comparing Matt to John. And as to what occurred first when comparing the gospels, that's just very difficult to do.

So, let's just stick with John's gospel. In ch 6 Jesus lumped Judas in with other disciples who didn't believe in Him, per 6:64. And I'm sure it clear to everyone that ch 6 occurred WAY BEFORE ch 13 when Jesus clearly indicated that Judas wasn't saved, per 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

And, BTW, Jesus was NOT omniscient while on earth. Nor was he omnipresent or omnipotent.

This is basically a denial of His deity. I couldn't disagree more. He didn't give up His deity. He just didn't use it.

Seems like you should know something simple like that.


Wondering

I would think every believer knows that Jesus is the Son of God, full deity.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus knew two different things, in this passage, from the beginning.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. John 6:64

Who THEY were who did not believe.
Who would betray Him.

Can you define, from the context, who THEY were who did not believe.

We know who it was that betrayed Him.

How can we know from the surrounding context, who THEY were who didn't believe?

I know.

Do you?

If you don't know who THEY were who didn't believe, then how can you be sure that Judas, was among the group who didn't believe?
JLB

v.70 provides the key to understanding v.64. Judas never believed and betrayed Jesus. Jesus lumped Judas with the other disciples who didn't believe in v.64 and identified Judas as the betrayer.

 

[chessman]

Can you define, from the context, who THEY were who did not believe.

He was talking to His disciples. Thus, some among His disciples did not believe.

John 6:61-65 (NKJV) When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
​

Please show us from scripture where this term, "Non-genuine believer " is found?

An example is Judas' non-genuine belief. Notice that Judas was one among His disciples who did not believe Jesus' saying because genuine belief (brought about by the Holy Spirit of God) had not been granted to Judas by the Father.

 

[GodsGrace]

All of Israel (at the time of the Roman occupation) was looking for the Messiah. Indeed there had been several people claiming to be a Messiah and had gathered together small to large armies and met up with the Roman army and got slaughtered. Acts 5:36-37 (Refusal to pay taxes and tribute to Rome being their common theme...After Alexander the great all Caesars claimed to be a god)

Praying for God to send the Messiah was part of the customary prayer said at the morning and evening incense offering at the Temple. (Like Zachariah did when he met Gabriel)

Now it was when Andrew and John heard John the Baptist call Jesus the Messiah any doubt was removed from the Apostles as to who Jesus was. John and Andrew both wanted to be Jesus' disciples...So did Peter. (John 1: 40-41)
Although none were officially called into discipleship/apostle status until John the Baptist was imprisoned it wasn't new information that Jesus was the Messiah.

What was rather starting to the Apostles was that their Messiah was God's Son. The water into wine, calming of the storm, walking on water, and the test of the deaf/mute man speaking these miracles could only be done by God. The real driving out of demons in the Galilee region got everyone's attention....So did Jesus' preaching style. It was all in prose.

So when they were in Northern Israel at Caesarea (Phillipi) and Peter says that Jesus is the son of God AND the Messiah...It's not new news... After all it had been 3 years already. All 12 of them were there then... Including Judas.

No one didn't believe that Jesus was God's Son.

So...What else do we know?

That most Jews thought that the Messiah was going to bring about God's Kingdom (like what was talked about in Zachariah and Ezekiel)
That the disgusting Roman Empire would be gone and righteousness would be everywhere. Israel (as in the days of Solomon's empire) would rule the world. These Apostles (just like David's Mighty Men) would be appointed to high places of importance in God's Kingdom.

Judas of Iscariot was never doubted. He carried the Treasury. He was responsible for handing out money to the poor and safekeeping it as it was received from wealthy patrons. Granted he helped himself to the poor box instead of just living off of what his family had provided him with. (But this shows his motivation)

When Judas got the idea of betraying Jesus...It wasn't like it was a new idea either. Jesus had said something about it several times already. The Apostles had discussed it amongst themselves several times.

So why would Judas do such a thing?

Because as we read the different Gospel accounts it's obvious that these 12 guys were ordinary men. They weren't theologians or even exceptionally bright. They were your average schmucks. Whom had a lot of bad theology between their ears. Jesus straitened out a lot of this...But not everything. Peter kept making mistakes long after Jesus ascended.

So...Judas knew that Jesus was God's Son...He was counting on that fact.
Judas also knew that Jesus was truly humble...Never once had Jesus acted in his own self interests. (Except for the perfume incident)

What one thing was it that the Apostles had the hardest time believing?

That God would allow his own son to die.
(Peter rebuked Jesus privately for saying this)

So much so that this was what Judas was counting on...That God the Father wouldn't allow it... And instantly institute God's Kingdom. (Of which he (Judas) would be a major part).
And Jesus sent him to do it... Quickly.

Thanks John.
I love your comments.

Wondering

 

[JohnDB]

Thanks John.
I love your comments.

Wondering

I'm glad...

What I find amazing is how hung up on this Kingdom of God that the Apostles were.

When Jesus (recently ressurected) had re-instated Peter as the Apostolic Leader... Peter asked Jesus a Question. "Are you going to install your kingdom now?"

Jesus told Peter that it wasn't his job to know when. (Of course the answer wouldn't have done Peter any good either...It would have been a completely different calendar than Peter knew)

But even after Judas' failure...All over this Kingdom notion...He still wants it.

 

[MarkT]

Do you have anything that is clearly applicable to Judas before Jesus anointed him with power in Matthew 10?
I went looking, but came up with lots of 'maybe and maybe not' verses. All of the clear verses on Judas seem to apply to late in the ministry. If you have proof of bad faith on Judas part from the beginning, I'd love to see it.

Not in Matthew, I don't think. John gives us the goods on Judas.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” Jesus did the choosing before he sent them out in Mt. 10 And Jesus knew he was choosing a devil, for he said, "I know whom I have chosen"

'I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 13:18

 

[JLB]

Here is something that I found that seems relevant but my expertise lacks so I'll throw it out there for discussion. Maybe I will learn something.

"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." Job 1:6 NKJV

As I read this, Satan is a son of God. Satan certainly is not in fellowship with God but is he saved?

Satan is an angel.

An angel is a spirit.

God is the Father of spirits.

Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9

God created all things, including angels.

God is the Father of all angels, which is why angels are called sons of God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Just for the record, I haven't claimed that he was.
I just claimed that Jesus knew Judas would betray him.

... and, yes, from the context, I know who 'they' are.

Ok. Thanks

 

[JLB]

He was talking to His disciples. Thus, some among His disciples did not believe.

Amen.

Now that we have clarified that, can you discern from the context which of His disciples did not believe and which of His disciples did believe?

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:61-71


Here are the key verses, the one's left out of your quote, which leads me to believe that you may not understand which disciples didn't believe, and which disciples did believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Key Verse's -

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Those who walked away from Him, didn't believe anymore.

The twelve however did believe and demonstrated that they continued to believe by continuing to follow Him.

The twelve believed.

The other disciples no longer believed, in which their initial believing was in vain.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Now that we have clarified that, can you discern from the context which of His disciples did not believe and which of His disciples did believe?

'Discern'??? Just read it and believe what's written without adding/subtracting from it.

Jesus Himself tells us exactly which of His disciples did not believe and even predicts that he would betray him years later and even calls him a devil.

John 6:64 (NKJV) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.​

John 6:70-71 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

He even tells us why he chose the one who was a devil and would later betray Him.

“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Yep, that's exactly why He said Judas was a devil and would betray Him.

Those who walked away from Him, didn't believe anymore.

Two points here:
1. Why do you add "anymore" to what's written??? Jesus' didn't say to "His disciples" that He knew who 'do not believe anymore'. Where in the world do you get 'anymore' from???
2. Plus, are we talking about belief (or none belief) from among His disciples or not???

John 6:16-17 (NKJV) Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them.​

"His disciples" = the ones who were in boat the night before. Yet He said one of His disciples was a devil. Not the ones that walked away that day.

The twelve however did believe and demonstrated that they continued to believe by continuing to follow Him.

So says you. There was one of His disciples (yes one still following Him) who Jesus knew "from the beginning" that "did not believe" and would betray Him later.

​

Are you suggesting that "His disciples" were
not the very ones who went in the boat but rather the ones in the crowd who walked away? That's an odd "discerning". And one literally refuted by the fact that John says His disciples were sent in the boat the night before.

Key Verse's -

They're all key. Yet none say anything about not believing 'anymore'.

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Yep. One of His disciples who was in the boat was a devil who Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe, yet he followed Him (and the money bag) around for another two years.