Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[JLB]

We know his word made them clean John 15: 3 and we know Judas was not clean. John 13:10-11 So we know his word was not in Judas.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6


The principle of being clean, found in John is clear, and is explained by Jesus in Chapter 15.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

Jesus just explained that the branches "in Him" are pruned, which is how the branch is cleaned.

Clean here means - Strong's G2513 - katharos

clean, pure

1. physically
   
   1. purified by fire
   2. in a similitude, like a vine cleansed by pruning and so fitted to bear fruit
      
2. in a levitical sense
   1. clean, the use of which is not forbidden, imparts no uncleanness
      
3. ethically
   
   1. free from corrupt desire, from sin and guilt
   2. free from every admixture of what is false, sincere genuine
   3. blameless, innocent
   4. unstained with the guilt of anything
      

Judas did not abide [remain connected] in Him, and was cast out like a branch.


This lesson is for all of us, who have the hope of inheriting eternal life, that we must remain connected in Him, by continuing in the faith, that is to say, continuing to believe and hold fast, [keep] the word, and bear fruit, like the example Jesus taught us.

Paul said it this way:

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

The hope of inheriting eternal life, is the substance of faith; the faith we have in Christ Jesus, and is the unseen evidence of our hope.

...that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

• Jesus taught us about this very thing, here in this parable:

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Here is the question: Which one of these 4 groups, will end up inheriting eternal life?



JLB

 

[JLB]

'Discern'??? Just read it and believe what's written without adding/subtracting from it.

Yes, Chessman, please read what it plainly says, and believe:

The principle is clear, those who come to Him and follow Him, do so because they believe.

That's the principle here.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


Those who didn't believe, turned from Him and no longer followed Him.


Was Judas among that group, who went back from Him, in this passage?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus Himself tells us exactly which of His disciples did not believe and even predicts that he would betray him years later and even calls him a devil.

Those who didn't believe, are pointed out by the language used.


Look at it yourself from the scripture you quoted.

Jesus Himself tells us exactly which of His disciples did not believe and even predicts that he would betray him years later and even calls him a devil.

John 6:64 (NKJV) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
John 6:70-71 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe...

The group identified as not believing is done so by the plural, "they", meaning more than one.

We know Judas betrayed Jesus.

However, those who didn't believe are identified as the disciples, who turned back from Him, and walked with Him no more.


Did Judas turn back from Him, in this passage, or did he continue as one of the twelve?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Satan is an angel.

An angel is a spirit.

God is the Father of spirits.

Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? Hebrews 12:9

Please explain how this verse relates to the above statements.

God created all things, including angels.

God is the Father of all angels, which is why angels are called sons of God.
JLB

Please explain the reason for lumping angels as "sons of God" with those who believe in Jesus Christ and are born again of God.

Since there are no references in Scripture to any angels whatsoever being BORN OF GOD, there is no reason to try to lump fallen angels with either believers or former believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not in Matthew, I don't think. John gives us the goods on Judas.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” Jesus did the choosing before he sent them out in Mt. 10 And Jesus knew he was choosing a devil, for he said, "I know whom I have chosen"

'I am not speaking of you all; I know whom I have chosen; it is that the scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 13:18

Jesus KNEW He was choosing a devil to be an Apostle???

This is getting crazy.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus KNEW He was choosing a devil to be an Apostle???

This is getting crazy.

THIS is why chronology is important.
BUT WHY WASTE TIME ON CHRONOLOGY???

 

[FreeGrace]

MarkT said: ↑
We know his word made them clean John 15: 3 and we know Judas was not clean. John 13:10-11 So we know his word was not in Judas.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:1-6

The principle of being clean, found in John is clear, and is explained by Jesus in Chapter 15.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. John 15:3

Who do you think He was addressing here in ch 15? Was Judas present? No, he had left the supper in ch 13:30 - As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

Therefore, nothing that Jesus said in ch 15 was addressed to Judas, who wasn't even there.

And Jesus explained what He meant by "clean" back in ch 13 when Judas WAS present and got his own feet washed by Jesus. However, Jesus explained what He meant by "clean" here:
9 “Then, Lord,” Simon Peter replied, “not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!”
10Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.”
11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

Peter failed to understand that Jesus was talking about fellowship back in v.6-8
6 He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, “Lord, are you going to wash my feet?”
7 Jesus replied, “You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.”
8 “No,” said Peter, “you shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered, “Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.”

That's what "having part with Me" mean; fellowship. Not salvation.

Further, Jesus point blank told Peter that he was ALREADY CLEAN and didn't need that bath that he requested. And He also noted that "not every one of you is clean" in v.10, a clear reference to Judas, whose feet were washed by Jesus.

Now, back to 15:3. Only those disciples (the remaining 11) were clean. And this is His explanation in v.3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

From many many other verses, we know that they weren't clean just because He spoke to them, but that they BELIEVED what He said. Unlike Judas, who never believed, according to John 6:64.

Jesus just explained that the branches "in Him" are pruned, which is how the branch is cleaned.

This totally misunderstands the entire context. They were clean because of the Word He spoke to them and they believed, not because He pruned them.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15

Where, in this parable, does Jesus teach that those who believe only for a while are saved only for a while?

 

[GodsGrace]

'Discern'??? Just read it and believe what's written without adding/subtracting from it.

Jesus Himself tells us exactly which of His disciples did not believe and even predicts that he would betray him years later and even calls him a devil.

John 6:64 (NKJV) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.​

John 6:70-71 (NKJV) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. ​

He even tells us why he chose the one who was a devil and would later betray Him.


Yep, that's exactly why He said Judas was a devil and would betray Him.



Two points here:
1. Why do you add "anymore" to what's written??? Jesus' didn't say to "His disciples" that He knew who 'do not believe anymore'. Where in the world do you get 'anymore' from???
2. Plus, are we talking about belief (or none belief) from among His disciples or not???

John 6:16-17 (NKJV) Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, got into the boat, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was already dark, and Jesus had not come to them.​

"His disciples" = the ones who were in boat the night before. Yet He said one of His disciples was a devil. Not the ones that walked away that day.


So says you. There was one of His disciples (yes one still following Him) who Jesus knew "from the beginning" that "did not believe" and would betray Him later.

​

Are you suggesting that "His disciples" were
not the very ones who went in the boat but rather the ones in the crowd who walked away? That's an odd "discerning". And one literally refuted by the fact that John says His disciples were sent in the boat the night before.


They're all key. Yet none say anything about not believing 'anymore'.


Yep. One of His disciples who was in the boat was a devil who Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe, yet he followed Him (and the money bag) around for another two years.

You'll be happy to know I'm leaving this discussion so you boys could have your fun.

But before I go, two points:

1. JESUS DID NOT CHOOSE A DEVIL TO BE AN APOSTLE.

2. THE BLUE UNDERLINED ABOVE IS SPEAKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS.
John 6:64
A. Jesus knew FROM THE BEGINNING who would not believe.
B. He knew who would betray Him. (NOT from the beginning since He was not omniscient and He sent Judas out as an apostle in Mathew 10. MUCH TIME BEFORE John 6. In fact, John 6 was close to the last few months
of Jesus' life.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Please explain the reason for lumping angels as "sons of God" with those who believe in Jesus Christ and are born again of God.

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Hebrews 12:7-9

God is the Father of spirits, both angel and those who are reconciled to Him by faith.

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Colossians 1:19-23

We have God as our Father, if we continue in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel [which is eternal life].

• Judas Iscariot fell away, and did not continue to the end.
• Judas Iscariot is an example of those who believe for a while, then because of temptation fell by transgression.
• Lucifer, and the angels who sinned during the days of Noah, also fell by transgression.
• Being sons of God, does not prevent one from being cast down to hell.

Those who are counted as worthy to attain to the resurrection of the dead, will have become sons of God, and be as equal to the angels, as sons of God.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

Being equal to the angels, and are sons of God.


I hope this clears it up for you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Therefore, nothing that Jesus said in ch 15 was addressed to Judas, who wasn't even there.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:1-8

This teaching referred to disciples.

Was Judas a disciple?

John 15:1-6 was a teaching for them to teach their disciples, Judas being a good example.



JLB

 

[chessman]

You'll be happy to know I'm leaving this discussion so you boys could have your fun.

Why would that make my happy? It doesn't make me happy.

THE BLUE UNDERLINED ABOVE IS SPEAKING ABOUT TWO DIFFERENT CONCEPTS.

In the same sentence??? I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Seems counter to the actual Text.

He knew who would betray Him. (NOT from the beginning since He was not omniscient and He sent Judas out as an apostle in Mathew 10. MUCH TIME BEFORE John 6.

Your reason is not grammatically sound to the sentence, nor theologically sound. Jesus knew all that the Father and the Holy Spirit told Him. And He knew the Scripture that predicted Judas' betrayal. But you keep thinking I've said or think that John 6 occurs before Matt 10. I have never said or thought that. I know when and where these events happened.

In fact, John 6 was close to the last few months
of Jesus' life.

No it wasn't. John 6, provably, occurs the day after Jesus walks on the water (in the spring, mid ministry) two years prior to His spring time cross. Just read it, the people were still looking to make Him king (versus crucifying Him) during this time period. And He'd just feed the 5,000. But it doesn't really matter when Jesus made the statements He made. He knew Judas didn't believe and would betray Him from the beginning. That's the point.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would that make my happy? It doesn't make me happy.

In the same sentence??? I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Seems counter to the actual Text.

Grammar is important. You're right. So let's look at it again:
First let's examine Jesus words from the cross:
I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise.
I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.

Big difference.

Now to John 6:64 which you say I have misinterpreted grammatically:

From the YLT John 6:64:
64 "but there are certain of you who do not believe;' for Jesus had known from the beginning who they are who are not believing, and who is he who will deliver him up, "

It seems to me that Jesus knew from the beginning who they are who are not believing.
He ALSO knows who is he who will deliver Him up.

This is the only conclusion that makes sense to me.
Some here are saying that Jesus knew from the beginning who it was who would betray him, incl you.
Jesus called Judas the son of perdition, and a devil.
John 17:12
John 6:70

If Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas was the son of perdition and a devil, WHY would He have sent him out with the other 11 (Mathew 10) to preach the salvation message? This absolutely does not make sense.
God would not send a devil to preach His word.

We also know that the devil did not "enter" into Judas until the time of the Last Supper or Passover, Luke 22:3

Since this is when the devil "entered" Judas, we can safely assume that he was a saved person prior to this, and definitley when Jesus chose him to be an Apostle.

Again, I repeat, when Jesus announced that he who would dip into the bowl with Him would be the betrayer, the other 11 Apostles began to murmer WHO it might be. This means that they could not tell that Judas was any different than themselves. It means that they trusted him. He was tempted and stole from the money bag, but this does not mean he was not saved. We all sin.


Your reason is not grammatically sound to the sentence, nor theologically sound. Jesus knew all that the Father and the Holy Spirit told Him. And He knew the Scripture that predicted Judas' betrayal. But you keep thinking I've said or think that John 6 occurs before Matt 10. I have never said or thought that. I know when and where these events happened.

You're right! Jesus knew all that the Father and the Holy Spirit told Him. BUT NOTHING MORE!! While in human form, Jesus did not know everything. He was limited. He was NOT omnipresent, omnipotent or omniscient.
Philippians 2:6-7

Eventually, Jesus did know that He would be betrayed to fulfill scripture.
IF Jesus knew everything at all times, why would He have prayed in the Garden to have the cup lifted from Him?
This was a human reaction - I understand this. But does it not show that He had not fully accepted what was to happen? He wished there was another way to accomplish the atonement, perhaps?
Not to change the topic, but how does this demonstrate His omniscience? Which is my point, He knew only what the Father wanted Him to know at any given point in time.

No it wasn't. John 6, provably, occurs the day after Jesus walks on the water (in the spring, mid ministry) two years prior to His spring time cross. Just read it, the people were still looking to make Him king (versus crucifying Him) during this time period. And He'd just feed the 5,000. But it doesn't really matter when Jesus made the statements He made. He knew Judas didn't believe and would betray Him from the beginning. That's the point.

The timing of the gospels is not an easy task.
Jesus' ministry began in 25 AD
He annointed the 12 in 27 AD, maybe April
He died in 28 AD, April

John 6:64 happened some time in 27 AD, ONE YEAR prior to his death, not two.
Please check your source.

I'd say that within that last year, Judas began to change and eventually became the betrayer, and also became lost.

I'm repeating at this point, and to continue seems futile. We have each stated our belief.

CLICK TO EXPAND

 

[chessman]

The group identified as not believing is done so by the plural, "they", meaning more than one.

I know. And the "you" means "the 12". That's why He said that there are some "of you" do not believe.

John 6:43-44, 53-54, 61, 64 (NASB) Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.​

Yep, it's right there in plain English, the part you didn't quote. There are "some of you" (the 12) that do not believe. Remember, this is before they had the indwelling of Holy Spirit, though.

[Which is really the only point that matters in this discussion. It's been educational to me to see just how little credit the Holy Spirit gets in salvation as viewed by some people here.]

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe...

Yes "some of you... AND who would betray Him". You're not even quoting a whole verse.

John 6:64 (NKJV) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. ​

He spoke this to the 12! And some of them (the 12) did not believe at that time. And one of the 12 would betray Him. Clear as day.

However, those who didn't believe are identified as the disciples, who turned back from Him, and walked with Him no more.

The Greek clearly does identify and distinguishes "the 12" of His disciples ( "The Disciples") from the people who followed Him over in other boats (the disciples in the crowd of people). Glad you mentioned it. It's like the difference in English of writing The White House (meaning the one on Pennsylvania Ave) versus the white house on Elm street (meaning a house that happens to be painted white). In the Greek, it's clear, though.

In this account, John uses the same definite article for "His disciples" meaning "the 12" seven times in Chapter 6:

John 6:12, 16, 22, 24, 61 (NASB) So when they [the people] were filled, He said to His disciples, “Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost.” Now when evening came, His disciples went down to the sea, On the following day, when the people who were standing on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, except that one which His disciples had entered, and that Jesus had not entered the boat with His disciples, but His disciples had gone away alone— when the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they also got into boats and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you?​

And the verses where "disciples" is used without this form of the definite article (i.e. in a generic sense) are (you guessed it):

John 6:2-3, 60, 66 (NKJV) Then a great multitude followed Him, because they saw His signs which He performed on those who were diseased. And Jesus went up on the mountain, and there He sat with His disciples.
Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”
From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. ​

It is clear that in verse 66, John means the disciples from within the crowd, not "The 12".

Did Judas turn back from Him, in this passage, or did he continue as one of the twelve?

He continued on as the one of "The 12" that was a devil.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Therefore, nothing that Jesus said in ch 15 was addressed to Judas, who wasn't even there."

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:1-8

This teaching referred to disciples.

Specifically, the remaining 11, if one only continues reading from John 13:30. After the last supper, Jesus was not with any crowds of people, but only the 11.

Was Judas a disciple?

Irrelevant question, because he left in John 13:30. Therefore, he wasn't being addressed in ch 15.

John 15:1-6 was a teaching for them to teach their disciples, Judas being a good example.

I don't see how anyone could even think that Judas was a good example. He was not even an example of a saved disciple.

To date, no one has shown from Scripture that Judas ever believed or was ever saved. All that has been posted is speculation and assumption about Judas.

 

[atpollard]

To date, no one has shown from Scripture that Judas ever believed or was ever saved. All that has been posted is speculation and assumption about Judas.

Matthew 10:1 Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

I am generally inclined to agree about Judas being a false disciple from the first, but tend to choke on Matthew 10:1 and am thus unable to make such a strong claim as a definitive statement of fact. It must be relegated to a personal opinion supported by some scriptures and challenged by others with no irrefutable proof one way or another. Setting aside 'saved' (a whole different kettle a fish), how do YOU reconcile an unbelieving Judas with the authority specifically granted by Jesus to Judas in Matthew 10:1?

 

[JLB]

Irrelevant question, because he left in John 13:30. Therefore, he wasn't being addressed in ch 15.

Pertinent question since the teaching in John 15 was about disciples.

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. John 15:1-8



This teaching specifically pertained to Judas, and revealed his fate, since he was a disciple, and the topic concerned disciples.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. John 10:27


Were you there when Jesus said this?
Judas was.

Do you hear His voice and follow Him?
Judas did.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

• Judas was counted as "a sheep", rather than a wolf.

“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. Matthew 10:16

• Judas "heard His voice"... for a while.

• Judas "followed Him"... for a while.

• Judas was a part of the "household of Christ"... for a while.

This was said to the twelve before they were sent out, as Apostles.


Matthew 10 -

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

...It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they callthose of his household!Matthew 10:25

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-6


JLB

 

[JLB]

In the same sentence??? I don't see how you come to that conclusion. Seems counter to the actual Text.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


Those who didn't believe, turned from Him and no longer followed Him.


Was Judas among that group, who went back from Him, in this passage?



JLB

 

[atpollard]

If we are going to speculate, then anything goes.
JLB

Respectfully,
You are drawing inferences from the FACT that Judas did not leave with the others in John 6:66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. [NIV]
Your conclusision is that he did not leave because he still believed.

Yet John 6:70 states Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” [NIV] which you choose to ignore and John 12:6 states He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. [NIV]

It seems more than idle speculation that the "thief" (John 12:6) who "is a devil" (John 6:70) may have had a reason not leave with the other unbelieving 'disciples' who "turned back" in John 6:66. Judas having faith is clearly not the only possible reason for him to stay. In my opinion, it is not even the most likely reason for him to stay given the reality of John 6:70.

 

[chessman]

The timing of the gospels is not an easy task.

Timing some events is not easy. The timing of John 6 is not one of them. It's specifically stated what time of year it was. And all that's necessary for determining what year within Jesus' ministry is to match it to Jesus' later journeys and His transfiguration.

The First Passover:

John 2:13-15 (NASB) The Passover of the Jews was near, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;​

The Second Passover (Jesus walks on water on His way back to Capernum):

John 6:4, 21-22, 64 (NASB) Now the Passover, the feast of the Jews, was near. ​

...

So they were willing to receive Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going. The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone. ​

...

But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.​

This 2nd Passover and the feeding of the 5,000 and walking on water corresponds to the events/timing that Luke records in Luke 9:7-17 and in Matt 14:22-36, Mark 6:47-56. Then Luke records Jesus going back to Samaria. And matches to events Matthew records in Matt 15 and 16 over that summer while outside Palestine.

After the Second Passover of John 6 comes the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles) which is in October.

John 7:1-3 (NASB) After these things Jesus was walking in Galilee, for He was unwilling to walk in Judea because the Jews were seeking to kill Him. Now the feast of the Jews, the Feast of Booths, was near. Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.​

Then in that winter, Jesus went back to Jerusalem:

John 10:22-24 (NASB) At that time the Feast of the Dedication [Hanukkah] took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”​

...

John 10:40 (NASB) And He went away again beyond the Jordan to the place where John was first baptizing, and He was staying there.​

Then we have Jesus' transfiguration which matches back up to Matt 17 and another Passover that John doesn't mention. But Mathew does indirectly:

The Third Passover:

Matthew 17:24 (NASB) When they came to Capernaum, those who collected the two-drachma tax came to Peter and said, “Does your teacher not pay the two-drachma tax?”​

This tax was collected from Jews starting the month before Passover (Spring) from the outlying regions and taken to Jerusalem for Passover.

Then we have a whole year of events recorded in both Matt 18-19 and Luke 9-19 (yet not in John for some reason) before John picks back up at John 11 and Matt 20 and Luke 19, where they match again.

The Last Passover:

John 11:55-57 Now the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the Passover to purify themselves. So they were seeking for Jesus, and were saying to one another as they stood in the temple, “What do you think; that He will not come to the feast at all?” Now the chief priests and the Pharisees had given orders that if anyone knew where He was, he was to report it, so that they might seize Him. ...​

 

[chessman]

However, those who didn't believe are identified as the disciples, who turned back from Him, and walked with Him no more.

Was Judas among that group, who went back from Him, in this passage?

I already answered this question. No.

He continued on as the one of "The 12" that was a devil.

Your turn to answer; Did Jesus say these words that those that turn back from Him and walked with Him no longer?

John 6:64 (NKJV) "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. ​

And did John not tell us exactly why Jesus said those words to the 12?

If I said;

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who would win the presidential election and Trump would be President.'​

would that not clearly mean that Trump would win the election along with Pence and the rest of the Republican party???