Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

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Please show us the scripture that says God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

When Jesus said He SHALL be betrayed. Already cited those facts many times. Matt. 17:22, Matt. 20:18, Matt. 26:21, Matt. 26:23 and many many more.

When Jesus said something SHALL happen, that is a command and it IS going to happen, regardless of any "man/peon" claims to the contrary.

 

[smaller]

Jesus chose the twelve to be disciples and then Apostles, Judas Iscariot included.

If we consider betraying innocent blood a sin, which it is, and Jesus knowing Judas would do this, Jesus could have easily avoided that sin from happening by simply not choosing Judas. Just as Jesus could have avoided others from committing MURDER by not putting Himself in that position, but DID NOT.

Judas chose to betray Jesus, and no longer be an Apostle and part of that ministry.

You can make any claims you please. Jesus knew and did not avoid, but commanded His betrayal. Matt. 17:22, Matt. 20:18, Matt. 26:21, Matt. 26:23 and many many others.

Sure Judas had a choice, and chose not to follow Jesus any longer, and he chose to betray Him, in which he fell by transgression, and died in his sin, having committed suicide.
He made choices the whole way.

Judas could not have broken the scriptures. Not even remotely possible.

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

The problem with your positions never change. Your positions purposefully REMOVE the Working of God from the equations. I reject GODLESS notions. Even though I understand that such claims are also from God. Acts 4:26-28, Acts 17:25, Isa. 66:4

 

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18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, “Your sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother’s house, 19 and suddenly a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people, and they are dead; and I alone have escaped to tell you!” Job 1:18-19

Where in these passages does it say God turned Satan loose to kill Job's children?

Job 1:
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

 

[JLB]

When Jesus said He SHALL be betrayed. Already cited those facts many times. Matt. 17:22, Matt. 20:18, Matt. 26:21, Matt. 26:23 and many many more.

When Jesus said something SHALL happen, that is a command and it IS going to happen, regardless of any "man/peon" claims to the contrary.

So far you have failed to provide a scripture that teaches us Judas Iscariot was force by God to betray Jesus Christ.

Please show the scripture, not scripture reference "tagged to your opinion", since you have been shown to be guilty of claiming many things the scripture doesn't mention, that says God forced Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus?

Example:

Now while they were staying in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men,
Matthew 17:22

No where does this scripture, say God forced Judas Iscariot to betray Jesus.

Judas chose to betray Jesus, and no longer be an Apostle and part of that ministry.

Sure Judas had a choice, and chose not to follow Jesus any longer, and he chose to betray Him, in which he fell by transgression, and died in his sin, having committed suicide.

He made choices the whole way.

• He made the choice to follow Jesus, in the beginning, when called.

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when sent out as a sheep among wolves to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils [showing the signs of a believer].

• He made the choice to continue with Jesus, when many other disciples turned back from following Him.

• Then he made the choice to no longer follow Jesus, and no longer be a disciple, and no longer be an apostle, just like the other disciples, who no longer followed Him, when they heard a hard saying.

Why is this so called "no choice' in the bible?



JLB

 

[JLB]

If we consider betraying innocent blood a sin, which it is, and Jesus knowing Judas would do this, Jesus could have easily avoided that sin from happening by simply not choosing Judas.

That still doesn't mean God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

God foresaw that Judas would betray Jesus of his own freewill.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Job 1:
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Satan falsely claimed that Job would curse God.
God allowed Satan to prove what he said was true.
Job did not curse God.

Did God force Satan to do anything?

No?

Did God force Job to do anything?

No.

Case Closed.



JLB

 

[smaller]

So far you have failed to provide a scripture that teaches us Judas Iscariot was force by God to betray Jesus Christ.

Did God PLAN His Own Sacrifice, or did God only FORESEE that MAN would perform the sacrifice? That's probably at the heart of the matter.

IF we concede to the fact that it was a DIVINE PLANNED MATTER, that pretty well wipes freewill off the map of credibility.

The hard fact is that God Himself Planned to SMITE THE SHEPHERD, as the scriptures state. Your positions guesswork, that God only FORESAW that Jesus would be killed gets tossed out on it's ear, rightfully so.

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

Did God KILL His Own Son? Sure looks like it to me.

 

[smaller]

That still doesn't mean God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

God foresaw that Judas would betray Jesus of his own freewill.

JLB

Then, in your view, the crucifixion was an action of freewill man only, GOD had no involvement whatsoever, and it was not GODS DIVINE PLAN whatsoever. I think your position is Godless.

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

 

[smaller]

Satan falsely claimed that Job would curse God.

You asked for the scripture. I cited it. No sense jumping around from there to other forms of your positions Godless God is not involved nonsense. Acts 17:25

 

[JLB]

You asked for the scripture. I cited it. No sense jumping around from there to other forms of your positions Godless God is not involved nonsense. Acts 17:25

You have yet to provide a scripture, that states what you are claiming.

It's that simple.

You have been marked as one who just states an opinion, then tags your opinion with a scripture reference that does not say what your opinion says.

Then, in your view, the crucifixion was an action of freewill man only, GOD had no involvement whatsoever, and it was not GODS DIVINE PLAN whatsoever. I think your position is Godless.

Still no scripture that says God forced Judas Iscariot against his own will to betray Jesus Christ.

Did God PLAN His Own Sacrifice, or did God only FORESEE that MAN would perform the sacrifice? That's probably at the heart of the matter.

Still no scripture that says God forced Judas Iscariot against his own will to betray Jesus Christ.

Adam chose to eat of the tree, in which his sin spread to all mankind.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men...
Romans 5:12

God did not force Adam to sin.

God provided a sacrifice for the sin's of the world through His Son, Jesus Christ, and never violated anyones freewill along the way.

Each person has a choice to believe the Gospel or not.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


God does not force anyone to believe the Gospel, it's the choice of each person to believe.



JLB

 

[Jim Parker]

Does "they" refer to Judas Iscariot?

I think that refers to those who did not believe (a group of people) and who would betray Him. (One person)

 

[smaller]

You have yet to provide a scripture, that states what you are claiming.

What? That God Planned His Own crucifixion? [edited by staff] Of course God Planned the crucifixion, as duly noted by Zech. 13:7, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27.

You have been marked as one who just states an opinion, then tags your opinion with a scripture reference that does not say what your opinion says.

Well, uh, yeah, that is pretty much what this format is all about. Just because the scriptures present nearly the opposite sight that you have and you don't understand it is the only surprise, to you. I know your positions because I take the time to read and understand them. 1 Thes. 5:21. Certainly not about to agree that God is the father of Satan from your opinion bucket though, that's for sure. Still waiting on you to figure out the difference between The Spirit and the anti-Christ spirit. Another place where your opinion gets hung up on scriptural technicalities.

Still no scripture that says God forced Judas Iscariot against his own will to betray Jesus Christ.

Absolutely scripture says that. Jesus said and I quote "The Son of man shall be betrayed" Matt. 17:22, "one of you shall betray me" Matt. 26:21, "one of you which eateth with me shall betray me" Mark 14:18.

When Jesus said something was going to happen, such as the above, it's GUARANTEED to happen. There is not a chance that it won't happen. But in freewill land, there is still a chance that it could have been chosen to be otherwise, and THEN, God would turn out to be a liar and none of us would even be having this conversation about it.

Still no scripture that says God forced Judas Iscariot against his own will to betray Jesus Christ.

I've never said that is the case. Satan was also involved WITH Judas. So how Judas could be seen as the sole decision maker from freewill land is again just a freewill fairy tale. Mark 4:15, Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27.

What most of you freewill posture guys don't understand is that God WANTS disobedience to exist. That disobedience comes from the spirit of disobedience, Eph. 2:2, from Satan and his messengers, Acts 26:18, whom GOD HIMSELF MADE, Col. 1:16-17.

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now you can say and claim that God DID NOT do the above. But clearly God DID.

Just as Paul showed here:

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

AND, the vastly more interesting observation IS this, that these scriptures can be cited today, right out here in the open, and people STILL can hear or see the facts of them. It's quite funny actually, to observe it. Very much confirms Gods Words as living and active.

Adam chose to eat of the tree, in which his sin spread to all mankind.

And that's just your opinion which is sadly and commonly VOID of both Gods Work and the working of Satan in the above picture. It's quite sad that God made the events of His Own Working and that of the spirit of disobedience so entirely obvious, yet believers still see only Adam and Eve. Pity really. IF only believers would believe Mark 4:15 they'd have a much better picture of Adam. They'd see Gods Word, working, and they'd see the spirit of disobedience that was NOT ADAM, working in the flesh of Adam. Just as those same workings worked in the flesh of Paul, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17.

But you see, believers really DON'T believe everything God actually says. It's not that they can't. It's that God hasn't "allowed" them to actually hear/see. And there is no choice available that can make them hear/see.

People can read about the crucifixion events all day long, and they never seem to be able to see that ALL the disciples were in unbelief, via the spirit of disobedience, of Jesus' Own Words, right there in front of His Face at the dinner table.

Mark 14:
30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.
31 But he spake the more vehemently, If I should die with thee, I will not deny thee in any wise. Likewise also said they all.

Do you see the "resistance?" It's palpable.

When God says something SHALL happen, we can bank on that fact to happen. Freewill is OFF the table of possibilities when God says otherwise.

 

[JLB]

I think that refers to those who did not believe (a group of people) and who would betray Him. (One person)

Yes sir.

The group who no longer believed, were the disciples who turned back from following Him.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. John 6:64-66

The one who betrayed Him, was of course Judas Iscariot.


JLB

 

[JLB]

When God says something SHALL happen, we can bank on that fact to happen. Freewill is OFF the table of possibilities when God says otherwise.

God foresaw that Judas would go from being a trusted friend, a disciple, and an apostle, to becoming a traitor.

God also foresaw that some would go from being enemies of the Church, who persecuted His people, to becoming faithful servants in His kingdom.


Both of these involved the person's freewill.

If a person becomes a faithful servant in His kingdom, then that is God's will.

If a person, turns from being a faithful servant in God's Kingdom, and end's up perishing in the fires of hell, then that is not God's will.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9



JLB

 

[JLB]

What? That God Planned His Own crucifixion? Freewill thinks it was just random and accidental, apparently. Of course God Planned the crucifixion, as duly noted by Zech. 13:7, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27.

Please post the scripture that teaches us God forced Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Please post the scripture that teaches us God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Then, in your view, the crucifixion was an action of freewill man only, GOD had no involvement whatsoever, and it was not GODS DIVINE PLAN whatsoever. I think your position is Godless.

Please stop making up lies about what we are discussing.

You have misrepresented God, and what His word says, about His will.

It was God's will that Adam should not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

... but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat...

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:15-17

• God's will = Do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Adam made the choice to disregard and disobey God's will, and eat of the tree.

• Adam's will = eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

The reason Adam ate of the tree, was he has a freewill, and chose to exercise his will, instead of God's will.


It was God's divine plan to provide a solution for Adam's choice to eat of the tree, as He foresaw what would happen.

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15


God did not force Adam against His will, to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...



JLB

 

[smaller]

God foresaw that Judas would go from being a trusted friend, a disciple, and an apostle, to becoming a traitor.

Your positions has been dancing around this for quite some time now JLB.

Did God PLAN Jesus' crucifixion or did God only FORESEE what choices every single player in the events were going to do and then just SLIP in the crucifixion?

You do understand that several severe gaps in your positions arise if you claim God did not PLAN His Own crucifixion.

God DID smite the shepherd. Now, go show me GODS HANDS doing that smiting. You won't find them until you see it was GODS HANDS upon the people, doing so, EXACTLY as Acts 4:26-28 shows us.

God also foresaw that some would go from being enemies of the Church, who persecuted His people, to becoming faithful servants in His kingdom.

Faithful servants speak truthfully. Paul openly exposed indwelling sin in his own flesh and evil present with him which were NOT faithful whatsoever, but resisting and disobedient to the Spirit. Romans 7:7-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:13-14, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15.

Both of these involved the person's freewill.

IF you concede as you should that God has a factual operating will for people that can and DOES affect their choices and that Satan, the spirit of disobedience ALSO can and does adversely affect their choices, I think your position is absolute baloney because there are 3 working parties involved NOT JUST the person, and this, scripture shows us, in Mark 4:15 for example.

If a person becomes a faithful servant in His kingdom, then that is God's will.

And that's just another blind spot for your position. See the above scriptural notes on Paul. Not "all" of Paul was "cooperative" with the Gospel. He was in fact waging a WAR in and within his own flesh. Romans 7:23.

If a person, turns from being a faithful servant in God's Kingdom, and end's up perishing in the fires of hell, then that is not God's will.

I don't cotton to your positions damning anyone who has called upon Jesus to save them. Why? Because JESUS is involved and will save them. Contrary to your position's sight which VOIDS the working of Jesus out of the picture. I think your sight of these matters is VOID OF JESUS and His Power to actually save.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Just as Jesus called the shot that he shall be be betrayed, and it happened, Paul calls a similar shot here, that it WILL happen. IT's not a maybe any more than the betrayal was a maybe.

Freewill is openly in defiance and disobedience of the scriptures facts by eliminating both God and Satan working from the equations of man, which a single scripture such as Mark 4:15 shows us.

Freewill has blinded accounting. OR, in more advanced cases of blindness, it is completely illogical, claiming that Gods Will and Satan's will and man's will are working in man, but it's still just man's will. Talk about a mouthful of baloney. And such can't even see it. That's the sad part. But, that IS the reality of the spirit of disobedience in operation, causing people to believe utter illogical nonsense.

There are people in religious authority positions right here on this discussion board who claim we are saved by faith and not by works and these same will in the very next breath claim we can be lost by non-works. That's how nonsensical some of these sights are. People can't even see their own bizarre claims for the nonsense they are.

 

[smaller]

Please post the scripture that teaches us God forced Adam to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Please post the scripture that teaches us God forced Judas to betray Jesus.

JLB

You keep going round and round and miss the fact that there were 3 players involved, not just Adam. Mark 4:15.

Mark 4:15 applied to Judas as well. Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27

Mark 4:15 applied to Peter as well. Matt. 16:23

Do you see just Adam?
Do you see just Judas?
Do you see just Peter?

I'd suggest your positions will continue to miss the reality of the scriptures and the fact that there are 3 parties involved, and not just "man" and "man's" own will.

 

[JLB]

You keep going round and round and miss the fact that there were 3 players involved, not just Adam. Mark 4:15.

Mark 4:15 applied to Judas as well. Luke 22:3, John 13:2, John 13:27

Mark 4:15 applied to Peter as well. Matt. 16:23

Do you see just Adam?
Do you see just Judas?
Do you see just Peter?

I'd suggest your positions will continue to miss the reality of the scriptures and the fact that there are 3 parties involved, and not just "man" and "man's" own will.

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Did God PLAN Jesus' crucifixion or did God only FORESEE what choices every single player in the events were going to do and then just SLIP in the crucifixion?

From post # 1178.

It was God's divine plan to provide a solution for Adam's choice to eat of the tree, as He foresaw what would happen.

And I will put enmity Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.”
Genesis 3:15


God did not force Adam against His will, to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...



JLB