Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?

JLB

It was and still is Gods Own Design for there to be a first, natural man, Adam, and a last Adam, Jesus Christ.

The first Adam was doomed, Preordained, Predestined to die, by God Himself. 1 Cor. 15:46

The "instrument" of the death of Adam's flesh was Satan, who entered Adam's flesh immediately after God spoke to Adam. Mark 4:15.

 

[smaller]

From post # 1178.
God did not force Adam against His will, to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...
JLB

You continue to miss the obvious. It was never an observation of "just Adam." Gods Own Will was (and still IS) involved as was (and still IS) the will of Satan, to resist Gods Will. Mark 4:15.

Scripture is never an observation of "just the will of man." God does have The Primary Dominant Prevailing Will over all things/everything in His Own creation. Acts 17:25.

Within that overall view, God Himself has deemed there to be resisting powers to His Will. Col. 1:16-17.

And, quite far down on the list of priorities, is man's will, subject to the other wills above.

 

[JLB]

You continue to miss the obvious. It was never an observation of "just Adam." Gods Ow Will was involved as was the will of Satan, to resist. Mark 4:15.

Scripture is never an observation of "just the will of man." God does have The Primary Dominant Prevailing Will over all things/everything in His Own creation.

Within that overall view, God Himself has deemed there to be resisting powers to His Will. Col. 1:16-17.

And, quite far down on the list of priorities, is man's will, subject to the other wills above.

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?



JLB

 

[JLB]

It was and still is Gods Own Design for there to be a first, natural man, Adam, and a last Adam, Jesus Christ.

The first Adam was doomed, Preordained, Predestined to die, by God Himself. 1 Cor. 15:46

The "instrument" of the death of Adam's flesh was Satan, who entered Adam's flesh immediately after God spoke to Adam. Mark 4:15.

Just answer the simple question.

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?

JLB

Never was the dust compilation that Adam's body was, given to eat of that tree of LIFE. The flesh was meant to ingest the "knowledge of evil" which it assuredly did.

We are not meant to be eternally clothed in this present flesh. No, not at all.

Phil. 3:21 shows our current cloth to be VILE.

 

[JLB]

Never was the dust compilation that Adam's body was, given to eat of that tree of LIFE. The flesh was meant to ingest the "knowledge of evil" which it assuredly did.

We are not meant to be eternally clothed in this present flesh. No, not at all.

Phil. 3:21 shows our current cloth to be VILE.

Dude!

You keep talking in vague circles.

Just answer the question, so we can all know what your position is, based on scripture.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?



JLB

 

[smaller]

Dude!

You keep talking in vague circles.

And you keep posting "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that are irrelevant to the conversation.

Just answer the question, so we can all know what your position is, based on scripture.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?

Scriptures don't show "just Adam." Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7 etc.

Was it Gods Will to kill the flesh of the natural man?

ABSOLUTELY it was!

And if you miss the POINT, Jesus was no exception to the RULE.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Samuel 2:6
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

IT's called Divine Sovereignty. May as well learn now because the "lesson" will be learned, regardless of any 'man's will.'

 

[JLB]

And you keep posting "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that are irrelevant to the conversation.

You are the one claiming there is no such thing as free will, so you made it quite relevant.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:16-17

Was it God's will or Adam's will for him to eat of the tree?


JLB

 

[JLB]

And you keep posting "when did you stop beating your wife" questions that are irrelevant to the conversation.


Scriptures don't show "just Adam." Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7 etc.

Was it Gods Will to kill the flesh of the natural man?

ABSOLUTELY it was!

And if you miss the POINT, Jesus was no exception to the RULE.

Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

1 Samuel 2:6
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

IT's called Divine Sovereignty. May as well learn now because the "lesson" will be learned, regardless of any 'man's will.'

Did God force the chief priest's to crucify Jesus, or did Chief Priest's chose of their own will to crucify Jesus?

Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is called Passover. 2 And the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might kill Him, for they feared the people. Luke 22:1-2



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

This eve when Jesus said to the disciples; "Receive the Holy Spirit" and "I am sending out what was promised by my Father upon you, but you stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high” occurs after Judas had betrayed Jesus in fulfillment of other written Scripture. Judas wasn't with the disciples (nor was Thomas) on the eve of resurrection Sunday. Even though the Text refers to them collectively as "the disciples". So Judas didn't hear Jesus say this. And more to the point, Jesus never promised the Holy Spirit to Judas.

Sorry that I was unclear. I didn't think the Judas had received the Holy Spirit. But I was wondering about the scripture I posted because it appeared to me that Jesus gave them the Holy Spirit, in some way, then.
I do have just a little understanding of Greek verbs. Thank you for your explanation, I think I understand now.

[been missing your participation in A&T. You okay?]

I'm fine, I've just been busy. Thank you for asking. :nod

 

[MarkT]

Illogical to who? You?


It's not to me.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

This statement was declared to His twelve disciples; Judas Iscariot included, before Judas betrayed Jesus.

Up to that moment, Judas, by his choice, had chosen to follow Jesus, and was included with the twelve.

In the near future, this would change, but at the moment, Judas still had a choice to serve God, or serve the devil.

Because God foresaw the outcome, from the beginning, doesn't take away from the fact that Judas always had a choice.

There are also going to be some, who are written in the book of life, that will be blotted out, as Judas was, showing that they also were appointed to have eternal life, but then later were blotted out of the book of life.

He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


Judas was an example of this, being blotted out of the book of Life.





JLB

We know Matthias was chosen to take Judas' office, so Judas was not included when Jesus made that statement. You have Jesus saying Judas will sit on a throne with Jesus. Not true. Will Judas sit on a throne with Jesus? I mean when Jesus returns? No.

So Jesus' statement can not include Judas, if it is true, and we know Jesus is true. So when Jesus returns, will Judas be sitting on a throne? No.

Also, it's illogical to say something changed since Jesus was speaking of the future. So to assert that Judas was included in the future event is false.

Judas was a devil. Jesus knew it when he chose him.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

 

[JLB]

We know Matthias was chosen to take Judas' office, so Judas was not included when Jesus made that statement. You have Jesus saying Judas will sit on a throne with Jesus. Not true.

Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples when He made this statement - ... you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Just like He was speaking to his twelve disciples when He said - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8

Did Matthias go out to preach the Gospel, with the others when Jesus said this?

Your theory about who Jesus was speaking to is ridulous, and your method of interpretation is irresponsible.

Deciding to insert some else's name into scripture when Jesus was speaking directly to the twelve, is how heresy is conceived.

Judas was a disciple, and a trusted friend who BECAME a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

Just as Saul was a persecutor and BECAME an apostle of the Lord.


JLB

 

[Randy]

Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples when He made this statement - ... you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Just like He was speaking to his twelve disciples when He said - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8

Did Matthias go out to preach the Gospel, with the others when Jesus said this?

Your theory about who Jesus was speaking to is ridulous, and your method of interpretation is irresponsible.

Deciding to insert some else's name into scripture when Jesus was speaking directly to the twelve, is how heresy is conceived.

Judas was a disciple, and a trusted friend who BECAME a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

Just as Saul was a persecutor and BECAME an apostle of the Lord.


JLB

Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples when He made this statement - ... you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


Just like He was speaking to his twelve disciples when He said - These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8

Did Matthias go out to preach the Gospel, with the others when Jesus said this?

Your theory about who Jesus was speaking to is ridulous, and your method of interpretation is irresponsible.

Deciding to insert some else's name into scripture when Jesus was speaking directly to the twelve, is how heresy is conceived.

Judas was a disciple, and a trusted friend who BECAME a traitor.

Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot who also became a traitor. Luke 6:16

Just as Saul was a persecutor and BECAME an apostle of the Lord.


JLB

I would state Paul was set aside at birth (as he wrote) and so the replacement for Judas was already known by God and Matthias is not one of the 12. Though Matthias was a christian in very good standing with the 11. Even Stephen preached by the Holy Spirit with power. We read they prayed and also can note they failed to wait for an answer from the Lord. They cast lots and assumed. The accounting of that event (Matthias) did take place and is trustworthy. (truth) And though Jesus loved the 11 dearly they had to find out in a round about way about Paul. I wonder if there was a passive aggressive message in that. As in you didn't wait on me so now you will know my answer in another way who my choice is by their deeds and you will know I am with that person. Paul's selection by Jesus Himself and his deeds is well written in the NT. Paul also preached to Jews.

It is well written God does not tempt people to do evil. Judas was selected as one of the 12 and held that office until he betrayed Jesus. And Jesus stated about that one who betrayed the Son of Man it would have been better for him had he never been born. We also read that Judas was called a thief before the betrayal and helped himself to the money purse. So Jesus knew Judas was a devil beforehand.

And God does not tempt people to do evil.

James 1
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Judas clearly loved money, (30 pieces of silver was a large sum), more than Jesus. (God)

Randy

 

[chessman]

Jesus was speaking to His twelve disciples when He made this statement - ...

Jesus didn't say "dot dot dot". He was explaining how that in the regeneration His disciples that are regenerated and who have left land and familes to follow His name sake will rule with Him. Judas wasn't in the regeneration nor did he give up his land to follow Jesus' name sake. He stole money and purchased land to increase the name sake of Judas, not Jesus. And he was never regenerated (the qualification part you cut out of Jesus' assured Statement).

Matthew 19:27-30 (NKJV) Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV) But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ​

Judas missed out on the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and was thusly never "saved".

 

[daninthelionsden]

Your statement re. Judas reigning with Jesus is illogical. You can't have Jesus crucified and Judas reigning with Jesus. Either Judas betrays him and Jesus goes to the cross, or Judas does not betray him and Jesus does not go to the cross, and if Jesus does not go the cross, then no one is saved including Judas.

Do you think Jesus choosing Judas could have backfired leaving Jesus with no one to betray him?

Judas could betray Jesus. Later try to repent with no spiritual vehicle for that repentance. Judas goes to hell while Jesus is crucified. Jesus follows Judas into hell to preach the gospel. Jesus brings Judas out of hell and into the kingdom. .....It is possible. Judas would be among the 12 once again.

 

[JLB]

Jesus didn't say "dot dot dot". He was explaining how that in the regeneration His disciples that are regenerated and who have left land and familes to follow His name sake will rule with Him. Judas wasn't in the regeneration nor did he give up his land to follow Jesus' name sake. He stole money and purchased land to increase the name sake of Judas, not Jesus. And he was never regenerated (the qualification part you cut out of Jesus' assured Statement).

Matthew 19:27-30 (NKJV) Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Titus 3:4-7 (NKJV) But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. ​

Judas missed out on the regeneration of the Holy Spirit and was thusly never "saved".

Jesus didn't say Judas missed out on the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, and thus was never saved.

Those are your man made words.

Here is what Jesus said to His twelve disciples.

Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:28

...you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones.

Judas was included in the twelve disciples, when Jesus said these words to them.

You just can't get around His words.

Making up things Jesus didn't say, won't change what He did in fact say.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Judas was selected as one of the 12 and held that office until he betrayed Jesus.

Was Judas a believer or an unbeliever, when he followed Jesus as a disciple?


JLB

 

[Randy]

Was Judas a believer or an unbeliever, when he followed Jesus as a disciple?


JLB

There is nothing written that states Judas didn't believe.

 

[Chopper]

Apparently Judas stole money from the "purse" therefore I'd say that he was an unbeliever.

 

[chessman]

...you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones.

Judas was included in the twelve disciples, when Jesus said these words to them.

You just can't get around His words.

Making up things Jesus didn't say, won't change what He did in fact say.


JLB

So, do you think Judas will sit on a throne with the other 11 disciples?