Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[Douglas Summers]

I would like to examine some scriptures that involve Judas Iscariot, to see if we can learn from his mistakes, and avoid falling away from Christ, as we see the Day of the Lord approaching.

Here are some things to consider if you do not know the Truth.

The Apostle Judas ( Iscariot )
Good Morning! This is the day that the Lord has made.
Judas Iscariot should be stated "Judas of Kerioth." Kerioth was a small town a few miles south of Hebron. He was the only one of the Twelve Apostles who was not a Galilean, but a Judean. His father's name was Simon.

Perhaps the most significant thing that can be said of Judas Iscariot, was, that, in feeling sorrow for his crime of betrayal, he did not seek to atone for his sin to the One (Jesus) whom he had wronged, but , rather, went to his accomplices in crime (the priests) and there sought to set himself aright. Because those whom he had served in his selfishness failed him at the end (the priests), he went out and hanged himself.

The apostle Matthias assumed Judas' apostolic position after Judas' suicide by the Apostles drawing of straws. But it is Christ who picks his apostles, and he did so of Saul of Tarsus (Acts chapter 9) Matthias is never mentioned again.
What Christ says about Judas: Judas was a son of perdition (John 17:11-13) And was called for that purpose. Could he be saved (yes). Did he want to (no) (Matt. 26:50) For even in betrayal, Jesus still calls Judas "friend", giving Judas time to repent.

 

[reba]

FreeGrace Ya know not one person posting at CFnet , follows all the rules all the time.. wish we did but we dont..
My posting in this thread has been for the most part as a member , not as staff...

 

[JohnDB]

FreeGrace Ya know not one person posting at CFnet , follows all the rules all the time.. wish we did but we dont..
My posting in this thread has been for the most part as a member , not as staff...

When I put

MODERATOR HAT ON

Then I am a moderator doing my job and posting directives as to what ALL the participants in this thread need to adhere to.

And I am now directing that participants need to make proofs and arguments substantiated according to rules of this forum and reserve the personal comments for the many other means of communication afforded in this electronic age.

 

[JLB]

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4


For those who have ignored the scriptures in the OP, or not understood them, I will begin to re-post them them, starting with Matthew 10.

If these were "His" twelve [which includes Judas] disciples, then they were not the devils disciples, as they belonged to Jesus.

In this passage, we see the promotion, and sending out [Apostle;sent] of these twelve disciples of Jesus that had followed Him,and been proven worthy to be sent out as Apostles.

He empowered His Apostles to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, and to freely give to those whom they were sent, what they themselves has freely received.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8


Can someone freely give the salvation of the Gospel, if they themselves haven't first received it?


Up to this point in Matthew, has Jesus referred to Judas as a devil, or a thief, or son of perdition, or betrayer?


JLB

 

[chessman]

He empowered His Apostles to preach the Gospel,

No He didn't empower Judas to preach the Gospel. He gave them power to heal and drive out unclean spirits. They were to announce the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e. the coming of Messiah) to Israel. Christ had not died on the cross nor risen yet when these were sent out to preach the kingdom to Israel. Nor did Jesus at tell Judas or the 11 to go preach that He had been risen in Matt 10.

Or pllease post the Scripture where Judas Iscariot was ever empowered to "preach the Gospel".

Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8


Can someone freely give the salvation of the Gospel, if they themselves haven't first received it?

It doesn't say they freely received "the Gospel".

Matthew 10:8b-10 (ESV) You received without paying; give without pay. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no bag for your journey, or two tunics or sandals or a staff, for the laborer deserves his food.​

He is telling them to not receive pay (wages) from the people of Israel as they go preach the Kingdom of Heaven is coming. Just take meals/food. V8 has nothing to do with them freely 'receiving the Gospel' nor preaching the Gospel at this time.

 

[JLB]

No He didn't empower Judas to preach the Gospel. He gave them power to heal and drive out unclean spirits. They were to announce the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e. the coming of Messiah) to Israel. Christ had not died on the cross nor risen yet when these were sent out to preach the kingdom to Israel. Nor did Jesus at tell Judas or the 11 to go preach that He had been risen in Matt 10.

Or pllease post the Scripture where Judas Iscariot was ever empowered to "preach the Gospel".

Here it is again:

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8

The same Gospel Jesus preached, when He was Baptized, and the Spirit came upon Him, after he fasted for forty days in the wilderness.

12 Now when Jesus heard that John had been put in prison, He departed to Galilee. 13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

15 “The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali,
By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan,
Galilee of the Gentiles:
16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light,
And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death
Light has dawned.”

17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Matthew 4:12-17


This is the Gospel of the kingdom, that His disciples heard Him preach, by which He healed the sick, and cast out devils.

18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.” 20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.

21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.

23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease among the people. 24 Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them. 25 Great multitudes followed Him—from Galilee, and from Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea, and beyond the Jordan. Matthew 4:18-25


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

These are different sermon titles that Jesus taught. Since they were lyrical in fashion they would have remembered them.a and had them memorized word for word. So they, as good telmadeem would be able to accomplish this.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 10:7,8
7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give.
Matthew 10:5-8
Can someone freely give the salvation of the Gospel, if they themselves haven't first received it?

Sure. And the Bible has given us a very clear example of this.
Acts 16:16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her. NIV

What she shouted in v.17 was evangelistic. Yet, she was demon possessed at the time. Until Paul commanded the demon to come out of her. There is no way any demon can indwell a person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. So, she was unsaved and demon possessed when she shouted her message of v.17.

Up to this point in Matthew, has Jesus referred to Judas as a devil, or a thief, or son of perdition, or betrayer?
JLB

Matthew isn't the only text on the subject. Let's look at John 6:70
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) NIV

Notice that this is early in John's gospel. And Judas wasn't indwelt by the devil until the end of ch 13.

 

[smaller]

Judas fulfilled the prophetic role he played in the crucifixion of Jesus. There was not a single thing that Judas could have done other than what he did. It was already written, in Psalm 41:9, restated as such by Jesus in John 13:18.

This role of Judas was set, in writing, by Gods Own Word, well in advance. That much is certain.

The most obvious thing that most miss with Judas is that it was not a matter of just Judas any more than it was a matter of any individual, alone. There was and still is a much larger scriptural principle in play in the matters of Judas and everyone else, noted here by Jesus:

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Did Judas have the above happen to him? Of course!

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 13:27
And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

Anyone who reads of Judas and just sees Judas isn't paying much attention to the scriptural details.

If Jesus had looked at Judas, to his face, and said "one of you is a devil" just WHO would Jesus be addressing? Judas or the devil? That answer is pretty obvious isn't it? The question any reader should ask themselves is WHY do you see only Judas?!

If we see Judas as the details of scripture present, we won't see just Judas.

Did Peter demonstrate the same principle found in Mark 4:15? Absolutely.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

The same detail found in Mark 8:33 and Luke 4:8 showing Satan being addressed IN PETER. Not one bit differently than in Judas! So, why do we miss the obvious? Go read Mark 4:15. It happens. There is no "choice" in the fact. It HAPPENS. The fact that it happens is shown in everyone who just sees Judas. They are blind to the reality of the scriptural narrative.

IF we see Judas as scripture sees Judas, will we then see Judas as the 'son of perdition?' Never. There is another obvious culprit in play that is NOT Judas. The same 'son of perdition' statement shows up again from Paul in 2 Thess. 2:3. And WHO is Paul referring to in that? Uh, Satan.

Paul got the picture of Mark 4:15 right. How do we know Paul got it right? Because Paul did NOT exempt himself from the same thing happening to himself. 2 Cor. 12:7.

Now, when we read about Peter's denial of Jesus 3 times, might we factor into that event the deceiver's actions in Peter? I don't know how anyone could miss that fact myself. It's as obvious as the nose on our faces. YET we don't see it. The natural blinded carnal mind will always neglect to see behind the flesh curtains, will always see only Judas or only Peter or only Paul, even though there is clearly written evidence to the contrary.

As Jesus said:

Luke 24:38
And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

We don't see the reality of Judas because our own ears are full of WAX. How do we know our ears are full of WAX? When we only see Judas, we are not seeing or hearing anything.

We often hear Jesus chiding the disciples. They were having a hard time getting the picture of scriptural reality. The instant we stop "lying" to ourselves about the reality of Mark 4:15, PERSONALLY, our ears and eyes POP OPEN to the reality of the scriptures!

And we won't see JUST JUDAS.

 

[chessman]

Here it is again:

And once again none of these passage say what you claimed.

Jesus did not tell or "empower" Judas, before His death/burial/resurrection, to go around preaching The Gospel (Christ's death, burial and resurrection).

At that time, Jesus and His disciples were preaching repentance, for the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. Yes, it was a proclamation of the good news of Messiah's coming. But not the proclamation of salvation by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

And once again, none of the disciples had been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Baptism of the Holy Spirit came after Judas' death. He never had it!

 

[JLB]

Sure. And the Bible has given us a very clear example of this.
Acts 16:16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her. NIV

What she shouted in v.17 was evangelistic. Yet, she was demon possessed at the time. Until Paul commanded the demon to come out of her. There is no way any demon can indwell a person who is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. So, she was unsaved and demon possessed when she shouted her message of v.17.

Are you implying this demon possessed girl was sent by Jesus, and empowered to preach, heal, and deliver from evil spirits?



JLB

 

[JLB]

And once again none of these passage say what you claimed.

Jesus did not tell or "empower" Judas, before His death/burial/resurrection, to go around preaching The Gospel (Christ's death, burial and resurrection).

At that time, Jesus and His disciples were preaching repentance, for the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. Yes, it was a proclamation of the good news of Messiah's coming. But not the proclamation of salvation by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

And once again, none of the disciples had been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Baptism of the Holy Spirit came after Judas' death. He never had it!

Your Funny!

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you implying this demon possessed girl was sent by Jesus, and empowered to preach, heal, and deliver from evil spirits?
JLB

No, that would be a ridiculous Implication.

I've implied nothing. I have shared a context to show, contrary to your claimed opinion, that unbelievers CAN preach the gospel.

But since chessman has proven your claim about Judas preaching and sharing the gospel wasn't that, we can close this chapter in the discussion.

Still waiting for any verse that tells us that Judas ever believed, or that he was ever saved. You know, to abide by the forum rules with evidence, not just claims or opinions.

 

[WIP]

Here is a scripture pointing to some of why i do not believe Judas had a choice.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Doesn't this say that Judas was lost?

 

[reba]

Doesn't this say that Judas was lost?

i think so

 

[WIP]

i think so

So then it has me wondering, what was he lost from?

 

[reba]

From the everlasting life of John 3 16 would be my guess

 

[JohnDB]

As some points to ponder...

Matthew's account can't conflict with the other accounts... paradox is rampant in scripture. So ALL scripture must be true... Even if they seem to be at odds.

But something to consider are also these questions.:
What did the Average Jew believe that the Messiah would be like?
What did they believe that life with the Messiah would be like?
Why were the Jews looking forward to the Messiah? What was the Messiah going to relieve them from?

How did these thoughts play into the disciples thoughts...and errors?

 

[dirtfarmer]

As some points to ponder...

Matthew's account can't conflict with the other accounts... paradox is rampant in scripture. So ALL scripture must be true... Even if they seem to be at odds.

But something to consider are also these questions.:
What did the Average Jew believe that the Messiah would be like?
What did they believe that life with the Messiah would be like?
Why were the Jews looking forward to the Messiah? What was the Messiah going to relieve them from?

How did these thoughts play into the disciples thoughts...and errors?

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

The average Jew believed that the messiah would be a warrior and life with the messiah would be like it was under David's reign. They were looking forward to the messiah to relieve Roman oppression and rule.

In Acts 1:6 we find that the disciples ask the risen savior: " Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

 

[JohnDB]

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here

The average Jew believed that the messiah would be a warrior and life with the messiah would be like it was under David's reign. They were looking forward to the messiah to relieve Roman oppression and rule.

In Acts 1:6 we find that the disciples ask the risen savior: " Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

I think that you mean Solomon's rule...where silver was just about worthless and gold was the common medium of exchange.
And you are correct about the rest...

But the real question is how would that affect the Apostles?

They (for some reason) didn't need to look up the scriptures about Judas after he was dead... perhaps they knew them ahead of time.