Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[FreeGrace]

Please explain how it is a man can hear the voice of Jesus, and follow Him for 3 1/2 years as a disciple, and then be empowered and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, if then didn't believe in Jesus Christ.

Easy. He was an opportunist. And a thief, who took advantage of his position.
John 12:6
He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. NIV

Please provide a scripture that says Peter or Paul was saved.
JLB

After you provide any verse that says that Judas was saved but later lost his salvation.

Remember, you're the one making the claim about Judas. But without any evidence for it.

 

[chessman]

All you have ever done is to deny what the scripture's say.

Incorrect. Just the other day, I changed the oil in my truck.

Plus, I havn't denied what the Scriptures say since believing in Christ's resurrection and given eternal life by the Spirit. Something Judas was not given.

John 6:64, 71 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.
Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.​

There were some following Jesus around who Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe, including Judas. You can deny it all you want. Your claiming Judas believed doesn't convince. Nor did Peter claiming that Judas believed convince Jesus. Jesus knew Judas didn't believe from the beginning and He said so. I''m convinced by what Jesus said about Judas, that Judas did not believe.

John 6:40, 44, 47 (LEB) For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

No one is able to come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.​

Judas didn't believe, thus he didn't have eternal life. Just that simple. Yes, Judas looked at Jesus for 3 1/2 years. So???
Yes, Judas carried the money for the 12 disciples as they were sent to preach about the kingdom of Heaven to the lost sheep prior to Jesus' death and ressurection. So??? That's what the High Priests who looked at Jesus too and listened to Him too and were empowered to do also. Doesn't mean they believed and were thusly saved though.

BTW,

All you have ever done is to deny what the scripture's say.

If I or another OSAS person had made this same statement about you ... it would be a lie (and edited I'm sure). You've done more than deny what John 6:64 and 71 says about Judas non-belief. You've explained why you think Judas was saved anyway.

I get why you think he was saved (following Jesus for 3.5 years, 'keeping' the money, sent out with the 12 preaching the kingdom of Heaven and healing, etc.). The problem is, Jesus specifically said you have to believe in Him to be saved, not work for Him for 3 1/2 years.

 

[smaller]

• Do you have any scriptures that teach us Jesus Christ, empowered any unbeliever, and send them as an Apostle to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devil's, like He did with Judas Iscariot?

JLB

The Holy Ghost prophesied through the high priest of Israel, a truthful matter, here:

John 11:
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
53 Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

And yes, it was the Will of God for the above to transpire, and for them to be against Jesus.

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

The difficulty your position will always have is that your position sees only Judas. Scripture does not present to us only Judas. Scripture presents to us Judas and Satan who entered Judas, and this "entrance" PRECISELY to perform Gods Will to KILL the body of Jesus. Mark 4:15 is what happened to them all. Just as the other disciples who "all" abandoned Him performed Gods Will and Intentions for them to do so.

Zechariah 13:7
Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Mark 14:27
And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

And the above, the scattering of the people of Israel, was also prophesied to transpire in the O.T.

Genesis 49:7
Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.

Leviticus 26:33
And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.

The difficulties in analysis of various events of scripture always arise when we try to see Gods Activity in the earth to only one party, MANKIND. That has never been the case.

It is just as easy to see Judas saved as lost: Romans 11:25-32. But God does also Will that the majority will not understand this mystery. And they do not and will not understand because of the same principle, of Mark 4:15, showing that God is also dealing with DEVILS in mankind who can not see and will not obey, nor were they meant to.

Gods Will is for them to resist God, His Christ, His Will and His Ways, as He made them to do and perform IN MAN. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

Everyone here who knows Christ as their Savior should count themselves blessed that they see what little they might see. Even to be able to say or claim that Jesus is Lord means the Holy Spirit is with them, in them, to do so. 1 Cor. 12:3.

There is not a single scripture that shows us Judas was permanently lost to eternal hell. We also know Judas repented of his actions. Matt. 27:3. And Romans 11:25-31 can readily be pointed to for an exact opposite conclusion for Judas, KNOWING Judas was USED to perform the Will of God.

But there is a working, even in believers, that refuses to see, and can not see or make the same conclusion that Paul did regarding "all" of Israel:

Amos 9:9
For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

THIS is how GOD sees Israel, and His Sight is the only sight that matters:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

And the REASON God Sees them this way is because God does not see JUST Israel. He also sees what happened and still happens to them: Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2.

If your positions saw likewise your positions would gather people rather than trying so hard to condemn them and completely IGNORE the workings of our adversary upon them in judgments, which gathering unto Christ is by rights the only intention of any legitimate Christian theological sight.

 

[chessman]

Please explain how it is a man can hear the voice of Jesus, and follow Him for 3 1/2 years as a disciple, and then be empowered and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel to the lost, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils, if then didn't believe in Jesus Christ.

Easy. He was an opportunist. And a thief, who took advantage of his position.

Right. Plus, he did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit. None of the 12 did, yet.

Luke 17:5 (LEB) And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”​

They needed the faith of the Holy Spirit. We all do too. But not yet until Pentecost did they get it.

This is the same claim you just made about Jesus never empowering Judas to preach the Gospel, when the Scriptures plainly say Jesus did empower Judas to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

My claim was and is accurate. The 12 were not sent out to preach the Gospel of Christ's death and resurrection. He'd not been resurrected yet! They were sent to preach the kingdom of Heaven (kingdom of God) to the lost people of Israel. Sent to do something the Pharisees 'believed' in and were supposed to be teaching to the people but didn't really understand it, yet. Nobody really understood the kingdom of Heaven come to Earth, until after Christ's death and resurrection and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 17:20 (LEB) Now when he was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with things that can be observed,​

Now that we have experienced Christmas and Easter and have the Holy Spirit, we can understand the kingdom of God come.

 

[JLB]

Right. Plus, he did not have the sealing of the Holy Spirit. None of the 12 did, yet.

Luke 17:5 (LEB) And the apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
They needed the faith of the Holy Spirit. We all do too. But not yet until Pentecost did they get it.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:67-71

I see, so you are teaching us that a person must believe, and in addition to believing, they must be baptized with the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated on the day of Pentecost.

So according to you, believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and being baptized in water, is not enough?

Got it.

Have you been Baptized with the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated on the day of Pentecost, Chessman?

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:4


JLB

 

[JLB]

There were some following Jesus around who Jesus knew from the beginning did not believe, including Judas. You can deny it all you want. Your claiming Judas believed doesn't convince. Nor did Peter claiming that Judas believed convince Jesus. Jesus knew Judas didn't believe from the beginning and He said so. I''m convinced by what Jesus said about Judas, that Judas did not believe.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71


Was Judas one of the disciples who went back, and walked with Jesus no more?


The scriptures and context, distinguish who were among those who didn't believe, by using a word describing "more than one", they.

"They" describes those who Jesus said didn't believe...For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.


They who didn't believe were the group of disciples, who went back and walked with Him no more...

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”


Judas remained as one of the twelve, and continued to walk with Jesus, along with the other's.


Judas later, betrayed Jesus.

Judas was among the twelve, who have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


JLB

 

[chessman]

They" describes those who Jesus said didn't believe...For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.

...

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.

Why do you chop off Jesus' teaching, mid- sentence? We all know why.

The subject of the sentence is "they". "They" did not believe, "they" betrayed Him, they did not believe His words. This includes Judas.

Judas remained as one of the twelve, and continued to walk with Jesus, along with the other's.

So??? Judas' fleshly walking around carrying and stealing from the 12's money profited him what??? Salvation on your view. Nothing on mine.

John 6:63a (LEB) The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.​

 

[JLB]

Why do you chop off Jesus' teaching, mid- sentence? We all know why.

The subject of the sentence is "they". "They" did not believe, "they" betrayed Him, they did not believe His words. This includes Judas.

Please write out the scripture with the surrounding context, like I have done, from the post you quoted.

As, you can see, the scripture is written out so all can see what is said, and can be referred to.

John 6:61-71 is written out, whereby I refer to the language of the scripture, and the pertinent content written.

Stating that I have "chopped off" part of a verse when 10 verse's of scripture are plainly written out, for referral, is a bald face lie.

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:60-71


Was Judas one of the disciples who went back, and walked with Jesus no more?


The scriptures and context, distinguish who were among those who didn't believe, by using a word describing "more than one", they.

"They" describes those who Jesus said didn't believe...For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.


They who didn't believe were the group of disciples, who went back and walked with Him no more...

From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”


Judas remained as one of the twelve, and continued to walk with Jesus, along with the other's.


Judas later, betrayed Jesus.

Judas was among the twelve, who have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


JLB

Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus, but walked with Him for 3 1/2 years, even when other disciples refused to follow Him, and walk no more with Him.


Unless you can show some scriptures, where Jesus empowered unbeliever's to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then you are forced to conclude that Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles, was a believer for a while.



JLB

 

[WIP]

Let's stick to respectful discussion of the topic!!

 

[smaller]

I've listened to a lot of narratives about Judas.

Let's get real with the subject. Jesus KNEW Judas was going to betray Him, beyond any doubt. Jesus, after all, wrote about the fact ahead of time, before Judas was even born, in Psalm 41:9 for example which He restated as a fact in John 13:18.

Quite entirely obviously IF Jesus had wanted to 'change' Judas, to NOT have Judas do what Judas did, Jesus could have quite easily sat him down and given Judas the inside scoop, and that part of what happened could have been AVOIDED, right?

Nope! Obviously Jesus KNEW and did NOTHING about it whatsoever. Did Jesus desire to change Judas? Nope! Jesus was the only person on the planet who even knew the information, as to what was going to happen.

What we often miss in the dissections of Judas is that the entire events of Jesus were PRE-PLANNED, in advance. All the other players in the drama could not have done one thing differently. Not only Judas, but all of the entire cast of characters were all playing their pre-planned contributions. Even with warnings, such as received by Pontius Pilate from his wife did not stop the event from happening.

Matt. 27:
17 Therefore when they were gathered together, Pilate said unto them, Whom will ye that I release unto you? Barabbas, or Jesus which is called Christ?
18 For he knew that for envy they had delivered him.
19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

No, none of the characters in all of their respective roles could have changed the courses of events. The Life of Christ was set in STONE. Every step He took, every character/person He encountered, every Word of their engagements were all PRE-PLANNED events, determined by God Himself.

Did God want to CHANGE anyone's role in these things? Of course not. If that happened we would not be having these discussions today.

What the big big miss that everyone has on Judas is that it was not just Judas. I don't know why it's so hard for people who dissect these things to miss the obvious, but here it is, again. And when we LOOK at the details of Judas, we reasonably should not see just and only Judas, NOR is it logical to blame and accuse Judas for doing precisely GODS OWN WILL, Acts 4:26-28. Anyone who "blames Judas" would be better off blaming God because it was GODS WILL being exercised, NOT the will of Judas and NOT the will of any of the other cast of characters.

Gods Will was being performed. Not the will of ANY, no not one, of the others:

So, who else's will do we see operating in Judas?

John 13:
2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

To see only Judas in this is to me, just absurdity. There is no cause NOT to bring the devil into this picture. We have many citings that the "devil" was IN Judas, the above being one of the citings of fact.

Even if we want to "blame" the devil we still have to look to the fact that, in the end, Jesus was executed, crucified, in a precise PRE-PLANNED manner by GOD HIMSELF, God, who HIMSELF set the entire cast of characters against His Own Son, in order to KILL the body of JESUS.

Judas couldn't have changed the courses of these events and that's all there is to this matter. Was Judas an equal match up to the power of the devil? Nope. How about to the power of God? Absolutely NOT. To me all such postures are so lame they are not even worth considering.

The truthful end analysis: JUDAS DID THE PRECISE WILL OF GOD HIMSELF.

 

[chessman]

John 6:61-71 is written out, whereby I refer to the language of the scripture, and the pertinent content written.

It's all pertinent.

What's pertinent to Judas Iscariot's salvation is three things:

1) Jesus told Judas and the others:

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”
​

At this point, they WERE still following Him. Defeating your theroy that merely following Jesus saves. Jesus didn't say 'there are some of them who do not believe', He said some of you.

2) And John tells us later on (after Jesus' ressurection) exactly why Jesus had said that to them (the 12):

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.
​

Not:

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.

You cut off half of John's very pertinent reason for Jesus making his statement about some of "you" (yes, some of His followers/disciples did not believe and would betray Him). Judas.

And of direct pertinence to this OP ("Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while")
3) Jesus was speaking about Judas, because Judas—one of the twelve—was going to betray him. He did so very pertinently because Jesus knew Judas did not believe from the beginning AND would betray Him. Directly refuting the OP's claim (Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while). That is, since believing in Him saves.

John 6:61-71 is written out, whereby I refer to the language of the scripture, and the pertinent content written.

Stating that I have "chopped off" part of a verse when 10 verse's of scripture are plainly written out, for referral, is a bald face lie.

BTW, posting John 6:61-71 is posting 11 verses not 10. Your addition is wrong. What's plain to you is not necessarily what's true. I did not lie. When you posted:

For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe.

placing a period at the end of your 'quotation' it becomes a misquote (chop-off, snip, bite) of his actual sentence.

When you chop-off other people's sentences, you mis-quote them. Plain and simple. And NOT a lie.

 

[JLB]

1) Jesus told Judas and the others:

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

Some, [as in more than one], which the scripture indicates by these disciples, no longer walking with Jesus.

• When they believed, they demonstrated that they believed, by following Jesus.

• When they no longer believed, they demonstrated that they no longer believed, by the action of "going back", and no longer following Jesus, as they no longer walked with Him.

• Judas continued with Jesus and the other's, up until the day he betrayed Jesus, and Jesus was crucified.

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:64-71


Judas was among those who had come to believe, and know Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.


Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
...Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”


Judas Iscariot is the biblical example, of a person who believes for a while, then falls away; ie losing their opportunity at receiving salvation in the end, by being faithful unto death.


5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

• Judas was blotted out of the book of Life.

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

and,

‘Let another take his office.’
Acts 1:16-20

• This Psalm, quoted by Peter as recorded in scripture, refers to Judas.

Let their dwelling place be desolate;
Let no one live in their tents.
26 For they persecute the ones You have struck,
And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.
27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 69:25-28

• Judas was appointed with the other apostle's, to sit on thrones, at the resurrection, along with Jesus.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28



JLB

 

[IncredibleTransformation]

The question is, was he saved and then turned against Jesus, or was he placed there by God to betray Jesus because he was a part of God's plan?

 

[smaller]

The question is, was he saved and then turned against Jesus, or was he placed there by God to betray Jesus because he was a part of God's plan?

Definitely Gods Own Plan. Acts 4:26-28.

People who try to wipe out Gods Will from the equations is resistance, revealed in the viewers, and nothing more. They credit God nothing in the events. They credit the devil nothing in the events. And they invariably land with both feet jumping only on Judas.

There are always 3 players to every line of scripture. God, the readers and the resisting factor, which is demonstrated in these kinds of threads by an inability to get all the parties on the table for viewing.

 

[JLB]

The question is, was he saved and then turned against Jesus, or was he placed there by God to betray Jesus because he was a part of God's plan?

Judas was appointed, along with the other Apostles, to rule with Him, in the age to come.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

The answer is: God foresaw from the beginning, that Judas would betray Jesus.

God didn't force Judas to betray Jesus.

Like Judas, we all have a choice, to believe, and continue to believe, and remain faithful to the end, in which we will receive the crown of life.




JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

chessman said: ↑
1) Jesus told Judas and the others:

John 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”

Some, [as in more than one], which the scripture indicates by these disciples, no longer walking with Jesus.

And Judas was one "of you who do not believe".

When they believed, they demonstrated that they believed, by following Jesus.

But Jesus was clear that some of them had followed BUT had NOT BELIEVED.

When they no longer believed, they demonstrated that they no longer believed, by the action of "going back", and no longer following Jesus, as they no longer walked with Him.

Where does Jesus say that they "no longer believed"? The ONLY place He used that phrase was in a parable about soils.

Judas continued with Jesus and the other's, up until the day he betrayed Jesus, and Jesus was crucified.

ok

64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” 66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:64-71[

Once again, there is nothing here to support the claim that Judas ever believed, or was ever saved.

Judas was among those who had come to believe, and know Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.

There is zero evidence for that.

Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
...Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

This is not evidence that Peter knew what Judas believed. Way more likely, given John 6:64-65, was that Peter could only assume what all of them believed. Judas wasn't stupid. He WANTED to be "keeper of the money bag", whereby he could jam his sticky fingers into it to take what he wanted, when he wanted to. So it would be natural for the other 11 to assume he was "one of them" as well.

But I've already provided Scripture that clearly indicates that Judas was NOT saved, even before he betrayed Jesus.
John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean. NIV

The phrase "and you are clean, though not every one of you" refers directly to Judas, as v.11 plainly indicates.

Therefore, Judas was NOT saved. And there is no evidence that he ever was.

Judas Iscariot is the biblical example, of a person who believes for a while, then falls away; ie losing their opportunity at receiving salvation in the end, by being faithful unto death.

There is no evidence for this from Scripture.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5

Where does the Bible state that Judas' name was blotted from the book of life??

Judas was blotted out of the book of Life.

Assumption only

16 “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

18 (Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out.19 And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)

20 “For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

‘Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;

and,

‘Let another take his office.’
Acts 1:16-20

This Psalm, quoted by Peter as recorded in scripture, refers to Judas.

None of this states what has been claimed. And none of it supports what has been claimed.

Let their dwelling place be desolate;
Let no one live in their tents.
26 For they persecute the ones You have struck,
And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.
27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.
Psalm 69:25-28

Nothing here about Judas, or anyone being blotted out of the book of life.

28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28
JLB

Maybe not everyone got the message that Judas was replaced by Matthias, considered the 12th apostle. Acts 1 describes it.

 

[chessman]

I see, so you are teaching us that a person must believe, and in addition to believing, they must be baptized with the Holy Spirit, as demonstrated on the day of Pentecost.

That is correct, No one (including the 12) can truly believe without being baptized with the Holy Spirit. That's the point Jesus was making to them (over and over). Including Peter and Judas and Nicodemus.

Peter believed he would never deny Jesus, yet he did three times in one night prior to his baptism of the Holy Spirit. Why???

Because the flesh (the world) cannot truly believe without God's calling and gifting of The Helper (the Holy Spirit) baptizing them (a new-birth).

John 6:28-29 (LEB) So they said to him, “What shall we do that we can accomplish the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God: that you believe in the one whom that one sent.”​

John 6:63 (LEB) The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.​

Peter's words about himself never denying Jesus and the other disciples believing were simply wrong. Jesus corrected him. Hard to stomach, Peter being wrong. But that's the truth. I'm sure Peter thought that he'd never deny Jesus and that all 12 believed Jesus was Christ. But the fact was (and still is), we do not accomplish the works of God. God does. Which is why I'm once saved always saved. It's God that saves, not me.

John 6:65 (LEB) And he said, “Because of this I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.”​

Because of what??? What is "this"???

John 6:64 (LEB) "But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.​

Because there are some of you who do not believe I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.”

So according to you, believing Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God, and being baptized in water, is not enough?

According to John (who got it from Jesus), believing Jesus is Christ (Messiah, God come in the flesh) must have been baptized in the Spirit of God. Water??? Pff.

1 John 4:2-3 (LEB) By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

John 13:11 For he [Jesus] knew the one who would betray him; because of this he said, “Not all of you are clean.” ​

 

[smaller]

God didn't force Judas to betray Jesus.

That's eliminating Gods Will to kill Jesus from the equation.

It was only Gods Will for the crucifixtion. It was assuredly NOT the will of a host of freewill characters who happened to bring that all about. That posture is not supportable whatsoever. Acts 4:26-28 tells us that "all" those named therein were doing Gods Own Will, which was long before determined.

Like Judas, we all have a choice, to believe, and continue to believe, and remain faithful to the end, in which we will receive the crown of life.

There was not a person among those in Acts 4:26-28 who could have done differently.

Gods Will for crucifixion could not have been "chosen away" by any person. And Gods Will for that to transpire was NOT a coalition of random freewill events that God happened to "see ahead of time" supposed "freewill" MADE IT ALL HAPPEN. That is just an absurd claim from the freewill camp, that 'freewill' crucified Jesus and NOT the explicit and precise PLAN OF GOD HIMSELF.

 

[atpollard]

Unless you can show some scriptures, where Jesus empowered unbeliever's to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then you are forced to conclude that Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles, was a believer for a while.

Will this work? ...

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

... Although I am not sure that I would say that 'Jesus empowered them', but aparently they were empowered.
[Just like Judas?]

 

[FreeGrace]

Peter's words about himself never denying Jesus and the other disciples believing were simply wrong. Jesus corrected him. Hard to stomach, Peter being wrong. But that's the truth. I'm sure Peter thought that he'd never deny Jesus and that all 12 believed Jesus was Christ. But the fact was (and still is), we do not accomplish the works of God. God does. Which is why I'm once saved always saved. It's God that saves, not me.

Sadly, Peter wasn't wrong on just one occasion.

Paul had this to say about ol' Peter:
Gal 2:11-13
11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. NIV

iow, he was a wrong hypocrite.