Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[dirtfarmer]

I think that you mean Solomon's rule...where silver was just about worthless and gold was the common medium of exchange.
And you are correct about the rest...

But the real question is how would that affect the Apostles?

They (for some reason) didn't need to look up the scriptures about Judas after he was dead... perhaps they knew them ahead of time.

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here
While I will agree that Solomon's rule seemed to be more glorious that David's, but was it really?

David rose from a shepherd to monarch of the land of Israel. Solomon inherited the rule.
David's failures were repented of and he was a man after God's own heart.
Solomon's reign was a steady decline from holiness to a place of ungodliness and vice.
One thing that Solomon was allowed to accomplish was building of the Temple.
Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. According to 1 Kings 11:1-6 he had wives that was not God's will from nations that God said "ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you, for surely they shall turn away your heart after their gods." It was those wives that caused Solomon to do evil in the sight of the LORD.

 

[Douglas Summers]

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here
While I will agree that Solomon's rule seemed to be more glorious that David's, but was it really?

The Solomon's rule was visually glorious....not Spiritually. All the Temple and it's order and blue print was of David's vision commissioned to Solomon,(1 Chronicles chapter 28 & 29) Solomon's line of sons became so disobedient (Coniah or Jackoniah) that his offspring were stripped from the throne of David and instead came through David's son Nathan. Do a study on the two son's of David (Coniah/legal line) (Nathan/Spiritual line) The prosperity under Solomon was not by Solomon, but by the Lord. for obedience.

• The Coniah Curse and the Sin Nature - kukis.org
  kukis.org/Doctrines/coniahcurse.pdf
  
  The Coniah Curse and the Sin Nature These studies are designed for believers in Jesus Christ only. If you have exercised faith in Christ, then
  

 

[JohnDB]

hello JohnDB, dirtfarmer here
While I will agree that Solomon's rule seemed to be more glorious that David's, but was it really?

David rose from a shepherd to monarch of the land of Israel. Solomon inherited the rule.
David's failures were repented of and he was a man after God's own heart.
Solomon's reign was a steady decline from holiness to a place of ungodliness and vice.
One thing that Solomon was allowed to accomplish was building of the Temple.
Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. According to 1 Kings 11:1-6 he had wives that was not God's will from nations that God said "ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you, for surely they shall turn away your heart after their gods." It was those wives that caused Solomon to do evil in the sight of the LORD.

It's the prosperity and rule of Solomon's empire state that they believed that the Messiah would bring back. Yes, the Messiah would overthrow the Roman government and establish righteousness everywhere. That was another thing they longed for. Instead of pagan temple there would be righteousness and if someone didn't give homage to God they would have a famine.
Israel would be the ruling class of people all over the world instead of a odd little group of people with funny customs.

 

[JLB]

No, that would be a ridiculous Implication.

I've implied nothing. I have shared a context to show, contrary to your claimed opinion, that unbelievers CAN preach the gospel.

Judas Iscariot was empowered by the Lord and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Can you show from the scriptures an unbeliever who has been empowered by the Lord, and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Your claim that a demon possessed girl preached the Gospel of the kingdom is ridiculous.

Judas Iscariot believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, as he followed Him as a disciple for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to Apostle, before he betrayed the Lord.


JLB

 

[JLB]

But since chessman has proven your claim about Judas preaching and sharing the gospel wasn't that, we can close this chapter in the discussion.

Still waiting for any verse that tells us that Judas ever believed, or that he was ever saved. You know, to abide by the forum rules with evidence, not just claims or opinions.

Chessman has proven that OSAS is an unbiblical doctrine by his many unfounded post's, and that is all he has proven.


The most recent being that Jesus never empowered Judas to preach the Gospel.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him. Matthew 10:1-4

Unless you can show a scripture whereby Jesus gave His power to an unbeliever, and sent them out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils, then you also have proven that your false claim about Judas Iscariot being an unbeliever is also unbiblical.

Judas Iscariot believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, as he followed Him as a disciple for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to Apostle, before he betrayed the Lord.


Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell away... losing his salvation.




JLB

 

[chessman]

Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell away... losing his salvation.

What Scripture says Judas Iscariot ever believed the Gospel that saves (that Jesus is Christ, (Messiah), Lord, died, was buried and resurrected??? None. Making your claim above unBiblical. Merely opinion, no Scripture.

What's Biblical is that Jesus knew Judas did not believe in Him from the beginning.

John 6:64-65, 71 (LEB) But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him. And he said, “Because of this I said to you that no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by the Father.”
...
Now he was speaking about Judas son of Simon Iscariot, because this one—one of the twelve—was going to betray him.​

Jesus even tells us why Judas did not believe in Him from the beginning.

 

[JLB]

What Scripture says Judas Iscariot ever believed the Gospel that saves (that Jesus is Christ, (Messiah), Lord, died, was buried and resurrected??? None. Making your claim above unBiblical. Merely opinion, no Scripture.

This is the same claim you just made about Jesus never empowering Judas to preach the Gospel, when the Scriptures plainly say Jesus did empower Judas to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4

• All you have ever done is to deny what the scripture's say.

Now the onus is on you, to show from the scriptures, whereby Jesus gave His power to an unbeliever, and sent them out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.


Furthermore, here is the scripture again, that shows Judas Iscariot did believe that Jesus was the Messiah, being the Son of God.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?” 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” John 6:67-69


Was Judas among the twelve who believed?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[chessman]

This is the same claim you just made about Jesus never empowering Judas to preach the Gospel, when the Scriptures plainly say Jesus did empower Judas to preach the Gospel,

Your highlighted claim in red does not correspond to the Passage's statement. Plainly.
Power over unclean spirits and sickness is not the same as believing in the Gospel.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

So???
If power to cast out demons was the Gospel, you'd have a point. Fact is, that's not the Gospel.

Jesus giving them power over unclean spirits and disease is not the same thing as believing the Gospel. If you want to know what Judas believed, read what Jesus said about Judas' not believing from the beginning.

Peter saying "we believed" is not the same thing as Judas actually believing the Gospel (before it even occurred). Peter claimed that he would never deny Jesus, yet Jesus corrected him. Jesus also corrected Peter's claim here, too. Jesus knew Judas didn't believe from the beginning.

 

[smaller]

Someone in this thread might ask themselves WHY Jesus didn't simply cast the devil OUT of Judas? Jesus obviously knew Satan entered Judas, and said as much.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Luke 22:3
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

Some few readers might figure out that it was Gods Will for "the devil," Judas and an entire host of other people to be against Jesus for the Divine Reasons of His Crucifixion. And not a single one of them could have changed the courses of events:

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Blaming Judas for Divinely Decreed events that God Himself Determined to happen would seem rather pointless.

 

[JLB]

Your highlighted claim in red does not correspond to the Passage's statement. Plainly.
Power over unclean spirits and sickness is not the same as believing in the Gospel.

You denied that Jesus gave Judas Iscariot power to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, and cast out devils.

That was your claim from post number 130.

Chessman said - Post # 130
And once again none of these passage say what you claimed.

Jesus did not tell or "empower" Judas, before His death/burial/resurrection, to go around preaching The Gospel (Christ's death, burial and resurrection).

At that time, Jesus and His disciples were preaching repentance, for the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand. Yes, it was a proclamation of the good news of Messiah's coming. But not the proclamation of salvation by faith in Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

And once again, none of the disciples had been given the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet. Baptism of the Holy Spirit came after Judas' death. He never had it!

The scriptures plainly say otherwise.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10

This is the same Gospel that was preached by the Apostles after Jesus ascended to heaven, the Gospel of the kingdom.

Jesus did not empower His 12 Apostles to preach any other Gospel.


Now it's up to you to show from the scriptures whereby Jesus empowered and sent as an Apostle, an unbeliever to preach the Gospel of the kingdom, and Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So???
If power to cast out demons was the Gospel, you'd have a point. Fact is, that's not the Gospel.

Jesus giving them power over unclean spirits and disease is not the same thing as believing the Gospel. If you want to know what Judas believed, read what Jesus said about Judas' not believing from the beginning.

Peter saying "we believed" is not the same thing as Judas actually believing the Gospel (before it even occurred). Peter claimed that he would never deny Jesus, yet Jesus corrected him. Jesus also corrected Peter's claim here, too. Jesus knew Judas didn't believe from the beginning.

Peter as the head of the 12, who lived an walked together with Judas Iscariot for 3 1/2 years, spoke for them and said...

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:67-71


If "we" didn't include the twelve, then who did it include?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas Iscariot was empowered by the Lord and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Can you show from the scriptures an unbeliever who has been empowered by the Lord, and sent out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

I believe that is irrelevant. Jesus told all 12 disciples that He chose them, and told them that one of them was a devil in John 6:70. How can a saved person be a devil?

And, in John 13, Jesus specifically tells Peter that he was "clean", but "not all of you", a reference to Judas being unsaved.

Your claim that a demon possessed girl preached the Gospel of the kingdom is ridiculous.

Well, let me introduce some unfamiliar Scripture then.
Acts 16:16-18
16 Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. 17 This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." 18 She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her. NIV

And you're welcome.

Judas Iscariot believed Jesus Christ was the Messiah and Son of God, as he followed Him as a disciple for 3 1/2 years, and was promoted to Apostle, before he betrayed the Lord. JLB

As we've been hearing on the news of late, that's just "fake news".

There is nothing in Scripture that says what you're claiming.

 

[FreeGrace]

Judas Iscariot believed for a while, then fell away... losing his salvation.
JLB

We all know the forum rules about offering unsubstantiated opinions. Please provide clear Scripture that actually says what you're opining.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Not that i am aware of... ... but i guess in part i am.. didn't know there was a name for it... . Judas did not have a choice Mary did not have a choice.. Let me try and put my thoughts down..
The birth, life and death of Christ was a plan from the beginning .. His life did not just happen... so many players were in place..

starting with Elizabeth and Zechariah the parents of John the baptist .
the jerky high priests
Cesar's tax decree
ugly king haread
Pilate his wife
The twelve
Shoot a baby donkey even played a role..
These are just touching the surface. This was not left to happenstance. IMO
We can go back and see the fore tellings of His birth


God being God can only be Godly. If a few players along the way did not have the same choice as you or i it is not our business it is God's business.. He the potter we the clay .. did Esau or Jacob have a choice...
Rom_9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth

Everyone has a choice.
John 3:17;

 

[JLB]

I believe that is irrelevant. Jesus told all 12 disciples that He chose them, and told them that one of them was a devil in John 6:70. How can a saved person be a devil?

Was Peter, Satan, a devil, or was he a person who was saved, but opposing the will of God?

23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:23

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:67-71



Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
      
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
   

So we must discern by the context, if Judas Iscariot was a "literal" devil, or was he a man, who was said to act in concert with what the devil was saying or doing?

Likewise, was Peter actually literally Satan, or was he acting in agreement or concert, with what Satan was saying or doing.



Do the answer to your question is: Yes, a saved person who foolishly acts in accordance with the devil, can be saved, as in the case of Peter, or lose their salvation as in the case of Judas Iscariot.



JLB

 

[JLB]

We all know the forum rules about offering unsubstantiated opinions. Please provide clear Scripture that actually says what you're opining.

67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”
68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” 71 He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. John 6:67-71


I have posted this scripture and will continue to post it as irrefutable proof that Judas Iscariot believed in Jesus Christ, in which he heard His Voice and followed Him for 3 1/2 years, then fell away, and ended up betraying Jesus, after he had been empowered by Jesus and sent forth with power by Christ to preach the Gospel, and heal the sick, and rasie the dead, and cast out devil.


Please provide the scriptures whereby Jesus empowered "unbelievers" and sent them out as an Apostle to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.



JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Judas was not born again. The Holy Spirit did not enter believers until Pentecost. Acts 2. (Judas has been dead at this point)


Also, you aren't saved until you have believed in your heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. Romans 10:9. (Judas was dead already)

You are saved after you have believed the above. You are proving my point about people believing stuff, but not saving belief that sanctifies you.

 

[Douglas Summers]

when the Scriptures plainly say Jesus did empower Judas to preach the Gospel, heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils.

Some things to know about Judas Iscariot: He was the only disciple to be from a city (Kerioth). Kerioth is a city of Moab. Iscariot means...man from Kerioth. Judas was the treasurer of the twelve (John 13:29). He was also known as a miser and a thief (John 12:4-6). Satan entered Judas's heart to entice him to betray Christ (note* Satan never forced Judas to betray Christ), but put it into his mind.(John 13:2, 27). Satan temps all men,But here is how that works through the nominal Christain (James 1: 14-15), but the born again believer has Armor and battle dress to destroy the enemies of Christ.(Eph. 6:10-18). Judas (in type) is the natural man who mixes with true believers (tares among the wheat). Instead of honoring the tribute to Christ with the anointing of the perfume, Judas was more worried about the money he could gain by the sale of the perfume.(John 12:4-6) Judas was never saved! For he was consistent with the pride of life.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Judas was not born again. The Holy Spirit did not enter believers until Pentecost. Acts 2. (Judas has been dead at this point)


Also, you aren't saved until you have believed in your heart that Jesus was raised from the dead. Romans 10:9. (Judas was dead already)

You are saved after you have believed the above. You are proving my point about people believing stuff, but not saving belief that sanctifies you.

I agree and Judas never called Jesus Lord as did others, Judas always called Jesus rabbi, right to the end.

 

[FreeGrace]

You can bet that I will not waste anymore of my time responding to any of your post's that state your opinion, then have a scripture "tag".

Why is it so difficult to simply place the mouse over the Scripture reference (not "tag") to read what it says? That's why this forum provides the service. But I guess any excuse to not engage, since there is no evidence for any of your opinions.

Your "claim" about Romans 11:29 has been thoroughly and completely refuted many times

False news. It is your opinion about that verse that cannot be proven, nor supported. The verse is about two things: God's gifts and God's call. And BOTH are for both Jew and Gentile. And God doesn't revoke either His gifts nor His call.