Judas Iscariot: Saved for a while.

[smaller]

Hi JLB
We teach religion kids about how Mary said "yes!" and did the will of God.
Could she have said No?
I don't think so.
Genesis 3:15
Isaiah 7:14

But this is derailing this thread.

I was thinking about Judas all afternoon.
I still say we can't be sure, but it seems to me that if he were saved in the end,
he would have had faith and reassurance in Jesus and he would not have
killed himself.

He most probably would have felt the forgiveness and love of God and would
have forgiven himself as God would also have if Judas had turned to Him.

Wondering

We know from scripture that Judas repented:

Matthew 27:
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Did the religious pharisees give 2 cents worth of care about it?

No. Just like they don't today.

 

[smaller]

A son of Satan is by definition a devil. ie. the Devil's seed. Without exception Jesus was talking to or about people when he said, 'You are of your father the devil." John 8:44, and "one of you is a devil." He certainly wasn't talking to Satan. Guess what Satan, you're a devil. No kidding.

Judas was said by Jesus to be "a sheep." Matt. 10:16. And a disciple. And an Apostle. Matt. 10:1-2.

The bottom line is that people are not the devil or devils. Clearly scriptures show us that Satan "entered" Judas. Judas didn't "enter himself." And THE DEVIL also put a GOD PLANNED deception into the heart of Judas, to carry out the WILL OF GOD. Luke 22:3, John 13:27, John 13:2, Acts 4:26-28.

What most FAIL to understand is that it was GODS WILL to "smite the Shepherd" and to scatter the sheep. Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27. This was a GOD PLANNED event. Not a man planned event. Not a devil planned event.

For the record I wouldn't give 2 cents worth of credence to any theological posture that doesn't know the difference between a devil and a human being. They are NOT the same entity class whatsoever. Eph. 2:2.

I'm not even surprised when some are deceived about this difference because that kind of deception has it's source in the deceiver.

 

[smaller]

I would also take note that after Acts, Judas isn't mentioned again by any Apostle when he could have easily been used as an obvious shill to prove he was or will be in hell. Seems to be the easiest target there is. Target rich, for sure. Yet nary a peep.

I would suggest that Judas' name will be one of the names found here:

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And I would bolster this with the fact that Paul gives us in Romans 11:25-31.

 

[GodsGrace]

We know from scripture that Judas repented:

Matthew 27:
3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Did the religious pharisees give 2 cents worth of care about it?

No. Just like they don't today.

Smaller,
I considered this, of course.
He was sorry for what he had done.
He repented and wanted to turn back and do things differently.

Sometimes people are sorry for what they did but for other reasons other than salvific reasons.
Maybe he was sorry that he condemned an innocent man when that was not his intention.

I don't know how we could be sure.
Why did he hang himself or jump from a wall?
We're not even sure how he died.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I would also take note that after Acts, Judas isn't mentioned again by any Apostle when he could have easily been used as an obvious shill to prove he was or will be in hell. Seems to be the easiest target there is. Target rich, for sure. Yet nary a peep.

I would suggest that Judas' name will be one of the names found here:

Revelation 21:14
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And I would bolster this with the fact that Paul gives us in Romans 11:25-31.

Yes, 12.
Judas was replaced with Mathias...

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
I considered this, of course.
He was sorry for what he had done.
He repented and wanted to turn back and do things differently.

Sometimes people are sorry for what they did but for other reasons other than salvific reasons.
Maybe he was sorry that he condemned an innocent man when that was not his intention.

I don't know how we could be sure.
Why did he hang himself or jump from a wall?
We're not even sure how he died.

Wondering

I'd suggest his repentance and remorse ran deep enough to kill himself. Fairly serious repentance in my sight.

I'll stick with Grace and Mercy of God in Christ when I look upon Judas. Why? Because I hope for the same measures to be applied to me. And if I want to practice ADVERSE JUDGMENTS, we do have the devil, Satan, to look to as well as the Plan of God, which Plan could not be thwarted, period. Not by the will of any man or devil.

Luke 6:37

 

[smaller]

Yes, 12.
Judas was replaced with Mathias...

The Lamb chose TWELVE. Matthias was numerO 13. Acts 1:26.

And more came after number 13.

 

[MarkT]

Makes no sense.

Jesus said to Peter. That's what the scripture says, plainly.
But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan!

• Peter, himself, was praised, when he spoke forth what God the Father, revealed to him about Jesus.

Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

• Peter was rebuked, when he spoke from his human reasoning and emotional perspective, about Jesus's death.

But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”

• In each case, Peter was held accountable for the words he spoke, not God the Father, and not Satan. Peter himself was addressed.

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day. 22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!” 23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.” Matthew 16:17-23




JLB

Yes. Peter was rebuked at the same time. But Jesus said 'Get behind me Satan' which reveals Satan. So it was Satan who tempted Peter.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Lamb chose TWELVE. Matthias was numerO 13. Acts 1:26.

And more came after number 13.

I don't have access to my Bibles right now, but it doesn't say Jesus chose them, just that they are the 12 apostles of the Lamb...
It had to remain 12, like the tribes of Israel.

 

[smaller]

I don't have access to my Bibles right now, but it doesn't say Jesus chose them, just that they are the 12 apostles of the Lamb...
It had to remain 12, like the tribes of Israel.

The N.T. numbers anywhere from 22-26 Apostles depending on who's doing the counting, how they might be counted, which count also includes Jesus Himself. Hebrews 3:1.

 

[dirtfarmer]

The Lamb chose TWELVE. Matthias was numerO 13. Acts 1:26.

And more came after number 13.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

There should be a new thread started to discuss the Apostles after Judas. The scripture that you referenced doesn't say the Matthias was the "13th" apostle but that he was " numbered with the eleven". No further mention of Matthias in scripture.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

There should be a new thread started to discuss the Apostles after Judas. The scripture that you referenced doesn't say the Matthias was the "13th" apostle but that he was " numbered with the eleven". No further mention of Matthias in scripture.

Which implies what? A minimum required number of 12? I wouldn't over react to that statement. Judas was an Apostle, a sheep and DID the Will of God, even in and by "resistance" to same. Matt. 10-1-2, Matt. 10:16, undeniably stating Judas, A SHEEP by Jesus' Own Determination.

IF we recognize that The Will of God was assuredly in play here, I'd find it hard to cast dispersions on Judas. It does put a pretty big dent into the freewill camps though, granted. So I wouldn't really expect any of them to acknowledge that it was GODS WILL to smite Jesus, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27, and to turn the entire host of characters referenced in Acts 4:26-28 against His Own Son.

I would suggest that 'demonic internal deception' was the instrument God employed on all of them. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32.

 

[MarkT]

Why would he need to, or have to? Consider some verses on how one is saved:
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


No, that erroneous comment came from the "they", which indicates unbelieving Jews. I've already noted all the verses where the word "they" and "them" was used to indicate unbelieving Jews.

There is no evidence that what was said in v.33 came from the new believers.

In fact, we KNOW that cannot be, because the conversation leads to Jesus telling them that they did NOT believe (v.45), just the opposite of how John described those in v.30 and 31.


I don't believe that because it makes no sense.


Right. The unbelieving Jews.

We know, because he said "if you continue in my word", that Jesus was speaking to those who had believed in him. Continue in my word suggests they had believed in him. To continue is to go on. We know their answer, 'We are descendants of Abraham and have never been in bondage to anyone', and we know his answer to them, 'I know that you are descendants of Abraham, yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.' John 8:37 Jesus knew beforehand that they would take up stones to throw at him.

 

[MarkT]

Which implies what? A minimum required number of 12? I wouldn't over react to that statement. Judas was an Apostle, a sheep and DID the Will of God, even in and by "resistance" to same. Matt. 10-1-2, Matt. 10:16, undeniably stating Judas, A SHEEP by Jesus' Own Determination.

IF we recognize that The Will of God was assuredly in play here, I'd find it hard to cast dispersions on Judas. It does put a pretty big dent into the freewill camps though, granted. So I wouldn't really expect any of them to acknowledge that it was GODS WILL to smite Jesus, Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27, and to turn the entire host of characters referenced in Acts 4:26-28 against His Own Son.

I would suggest that 'demonic internal deception' was the instrument God employed on all of them. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32.

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” This is what Jesus said speaking of Judas.

 

[MarkT]

Judas was said by Jesus to be "a sheep." Matt. 10:16. And a disciple. And an Apostle. Matt. 10:1-2.

The bottom line is that people are not the devil or devils. Clearly scriptures show us that Satan "entered" Judas. Judas didn't "enter himself." And THE DEVIL also put a GOD PLANNED deception into the heart of Judas, to carry out the WILL OF GOD. Luke 22:3, John 13:27, John 13:2, Acts 4:26-28.

What most FAIL to understand is that it was GODS WILL to "smite the Shepherd" and to scatter the sheep. Matt. 26:31, Mark 14:27. This was a GOD PLANNED event. Not a man planned event. Not a devil planned event.

For the record I wouldn't give 2 cents worth of credence to any theological posture that doesn't know the difference between a devil and a human being. They are NOT the same entity class whatsoever. Eph. 2:2.

I'm not even surprised when some are deceived about this difference because that kind of deception has it's source in the deceiver.

I see. So are you a follower of Judas?

 

[MarkT]

Re. Judas the betrayer

It's out of necessity that the betrayer, Judas, would need to be someone close to the one he betrayed, Jesus. So out of necessity, to fulfill the scripture, Jesus chose Judas and made him an apostle; he loved him, he treated him like an apostle, he put him in charge of the money box. Still Judas was a devil and a thief according to John 12:4-64 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus taught us that there would be those who believe for a while, then fall away.
13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Does it seem impossible to you, that Judas Iscariot, "believed for a while", then in a time of temptation, fell away?

I'll be straight with you, no games. Yes, it does seem possible. It seems highly Improbable in light of other scriptures that Jesus would lose none of those that the Father gave to him, or the so called Golden chain that suggests that these decisions predate the founding of the world, but I do not view it as impossible. The camel that everyone seems willing to swallow while straining at the gnat of was Judas a literal devil or not, is that at the moment that Peter said "WE" believe ... the apparent cornerstone of this claim about Judas 'belief', Jesus indicates he was already following, as an apostle, and not believing. Jesus was not correcting some flaw in Judas view of events, Jesus appears to have been marking Judas ... AT THAT MOMENT ... as not one of Jesus' own, but as a child of the devil.

I am also slightly confused about your use of the phrase "Judas believed". Believed what? Clearly he could not have believed the full gospel of a risen Christ who died to forgive our sins, those events had not yet come to pass. You also make a distinction between "believed" and "saved" that I admit to having trouble following. It seems like a distinction without a difference.

We could go on to address subtleties and nuances, but to what end when we can't even communicate fully on such essential terms as believe and saved and chosen.

Does it seem possible to you, that a person could hear the call of Jesus, and follow Him for 3 1/2 years, then be promoted to Apostle, and then empowered to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cast devils, while all the while, never believing in Jesus Christ?

No, not really. Which is OK, because there are so many nits to pick with this statement:
1. "follow Him for 3 1/2 years" ... Follow in what sense? For 3.5 years Judas traveled with Christ and stole from the community purse - Yeah, I can easily believe that. Believe and trust in Jesus for 3.5 years - no, by the time some of the good time followers were starting to turn away and Jesus put the question to Peter "Will you go, too?", Judas had stopped being a child of God and a believer and was of his father the devil. I personally suspect that except for his vested financial interest, Judas might have left with the others.
2. What Gospel did Judas preach? I ask because most of the good news was not revealed until after he was dead. It seems to me that Judas message was similar to that of John the Baptist. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is here and the Messiah has arrived. However, I have no idea if Judas understood the message of a spiritual Christ or was simply following the heir of David.
3. The healing of the sick and casting out of devils were acts counterfeited by false holy men, warned against as good works of 'workers of iniquity' whom Jesus 'never knew' (according to the parables), and which the antichrist will do to deceive many. They all suggest that Judas may have believed, but do not irrefutably prove that he did.
4. Did Judas raise the dead? If he did not, then does that indicate that he was not an Apostle? You claim that Judas raising the dead is proof of his belief, could you point me to the verse. I missed it.

So what does 'believe in Jesus' mean as you use the phrase. A cliche, but Satan believes that Jesus exists and is the son of God, does that make Satan a 'believer'?

You seem to dance around the claim that Judas was saved, but lost his salvation, yet you are careful in your wording to say 'believe' and not 'saved'. The careful distinction confuses me.

The bible says, these signs follow those who believe... In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;...

Did he? Did Judas cast out demons? I know the Apostles collectively went out in pairs and collectively they performed many miracles in Jesus' name, but is there any real evidence that Judas, personally, performed any of those miracles? Did any of the Apostles speak in new tongues prior to Judas death? If not then how is this not then a sign that they did not yet believe, since the promised signs had not manifested.

If a person who walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and demonstrated all these these things, doesn't qualify as believing, then please share with us what in your opinion does qualify as a person who "believes"?
JLB

As I have noted, Judas did not demonstrate all of these things. Other than being chosen and "sent" by Jesus himself (the definition of Apostle) Judas may have done NONE of the things indicating belief.

This is not to say that I claim the bible teaches that Judas never believed any of what Jesus said, or that he always followed out of evil motives, or even that Judas did not perform miracles in Jesus name. What I claim is that I have no irrefutable evidence one way or the other, so the question remains open. I cannot prove Judas did believe once, and I cannot prove that Judas never believed.

I can prove that Judas was not drawn to the Son by the Father as one of those chosen before the foundation of the world, to be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance and whom Jesus will surely keep and raise up at the last day. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. ( 1 John 2:19 )


I will gladly try to share my opinion of what qualifies as someone who "believes" as soon as I can understand what it is that you mean by believe (assuming that it is not a regenerated heart and a deposit of the Holy Spirit).

I apologize for the lack of specific verses in this post, but the same verses have been quoted a dozen times already.
If anything I wrote is unclear as to which previously posted verse it refers to, just ask and I will gladly clarify.

 

[atpollard]

Scripture explains it thusly: Mark 4:15, which happened to Judas. And the other disciples as well, Peter in particular.

When scripture looks at any person this is how scripture sees them:

2 Cor. 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Do you see that there are TWO parties in the above? The person and the "god of this world" blinding them? It's the same sight that Jesus gives us in Mark 4:15.

Here it is again:

Eph. 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Again, TWO parties present in the above. NOT, ever, just one person.

IF we walk with in the Light, in the factual disclosures of Jesus, we will see everyone in the same way.

And in Mark 4:15 there are many vital lessons. Primarily, that where the Word is sown, which Word Jesus was, Satan is "moved" into action, in the hearts of mankind, to RESIST, to STEAL, to BLIND, to DESTROY and to KILL. John 10:10.

It is not just MAN that is moved by the Word of God.

There is no way possible that people are devils. Devils are not seen. They are in the unseen realm. They are "disobedient spirits." And they are not humans. Anyone who thinks humans are devils are being deceived/blinded by devils themselves.

Understanding scripture, hearing the Word, requires us to factor TWO parties in man. Man and the "god of this world," the "prince of the power of the air." Not just the person.

Paul from Jesus' Own Mouth, post resurrection was given the same quest, to "divide" man from devils by OPENING THEIR EYES to the fact that they are slaves to the darkness of Satan. Acts 26:18.

Paul tells US as believers that we also have 'works of darkness' to cast off. Romans 13:12. Our own sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8.

To "judge" Judas accurately requires and demands us to see the working of the ADVERSARY in his heart, not Judas as his own adversary. Satan "entered" Judas. This demands us to see Judas and SATAN in his heart as two different parties.

John 13:2
And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

Yet even in this action, we also need to also understand that it was the Divine and Pre Planned Will and Purpose of God Himself for that action to transpire. Acts 4:26-28.

Believers who think people are devils need to take a serious look at what is transpiring in themselves. They are being blinded by that same bad actor in their heart. Anyone who thinks believers can't be internally influenced by Satan, the devil(s) need only to look to Paul to see that it's a reality, even for an Apostle: 2 Cor. 12:7. We are to reign OVER that working, but we are not "released" from the battle that transpires. Sin indwelling our flesh, evil present with us, IS a foreign occupation of our flesh and is the adverse working of spiritual disobedience therein. Romans 7:17-21. Gal. 5:17.


See the above. Yes, we still engage battles with our spiritual adversary, INTERNALLY, post salvation. That battle is "internal." No one becomes "sinless" after salvation and sin is of the devil. Romans 7:7-13, Eph. 6:11-12, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8.


There is no difference. It was SATAN in both men. NOT those men as Satan.


I'd call your sight a fundamental flaw in understanding, but sadly, a very common one. Jesus didn't come to "convert" devil humans. He came to save people FROM the spiritual captivity of Satan/devils.

If you want further insight into the construct of mankind and the spirit of disobedience, Paul gives us a great primer in Romans 9:18-24, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32 and repeats the lesson in 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

What do we know about Judas?

We know for no uncertain fact that Judas was called by God in Christ to be not only a disciple, but an Apostle. Being an Apostle comes with "signs" of the power that God has given them. Matt. 10 digs into this matter, showing that Judas was first called as a disciple, vs. 1, and then specifically called and sent out with directions by Jesus as an Apostle, vs. 2 and vs. 5-14. Given power from Jesus to do the works of an Apostle, which are shown in vs. 5-14.

And how did Jesus send Judas:

Matt. 10:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

That's right. Jesus saw and claimed Judas as A SHEEP. But if we read on in that, we won't see just a sheep.

Sheep do not turn into DEVILS.

If you recognize the Divine Principle of Mark 4:15, you'll see "how" Satan got into the heart of both Judas and Peter, and the balance of the Apostles were not an exception either. Their own spiritual blindness is delineated and shown many times in many ways throughout the Gospels. And that blindness was courtesy of the adversary working on them, blinding their minds, just as it is for ALL. This is also why we see only in part and as through glass, DARKLY. It's also why the churches are pathetically divided and in constant bickering.

Just one question, when Peter said WE believe, what was the point of saying ONE OF YOU is a devil?
From everything you posted, shouldn't Jesus have said 'all of you are Devils' since all still struggle post-salvation.

Please do not repeat again that people are not literal Devils, I get it, but your explanation renders Jesus words meaningless within the context. Help me understand what you think Jesus did mean rather than what he did not mean.

 

[williamt]

I'll be straight with you, no games. Yes, it does seem possible. It seems highly Improbable in light of other scriptures that Jesus would loose none of those that the Father gave to him, or the so called Golden chain that suggests that these decisions predate the founding of the world, but I do not view it as impossible. The camel that everyone seems willing to swallow while straining at the gnat of was Judas a literal devil or not, is that at the moment that Peter said "WE" believe ... the apparent cornerstone of this claim about Judas 'belief', Jesus indicates he was already following, as an apostle, and not believing. Jesus was not correcting some flaw in Judas view of events, Jesus appears to have been marking Judas ... AT THAT MOMENT ... as not one of Jesus' own, but as a child of the devil.

I am also slightly confused about your use of the phrase "Judas believed". Believed what? Clearly he could not have believed the full gospel of a risen Christ who died to forgive our sins, those events had not yet come to pass. You also make a distinction between "believed" and "saved" that I admit to having trouble following. It seems like a distinction without a difference.

We could go on to address subtleties and nuances, but to what end when we can't even communicate fully on such essential terms as believe and saved and chosen.



No, not really. Which is OK, because there are so many nits to pick with this statement:
1. "follow Him for 3 1/2 years" ... Follow in what sense? For 3.5 years Judas traveled with Christ and stole from the community purse - Yeah, I can easily believe that. Believe and trust in Jesus for 3.5 years - no, by the time some of the good time followers were starting to turn away and Jesus put the question to Peter "Will you go, too?", Judas had stopped being a child of God and a believer and was of his father the devil. I personally suspect that except for his vested financial interest, Judas might have left with the others.
2. What Gospel did Judas preach? I ask because most of the good news was not revealed until after he was dead. It seems to me that Judas message was similar to that of John the Baptist. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is here and the Messiah has arrived. However, I have no idea if Judas understood the message of a spiritual Christ or was simply following the heir of David.
3. The healing of the sick and casting out of devils were acts counterfeited by false holy men, warned against as good works of 'workers of iniquity' whom Jesus 'never knew' (according to the parables), and which the antichrist will do to deceive many. They all suggest that Judas may have believed, but do not irrefutably prove that he did.
4. Did Judas raise the dead? If he did not, then does that indicate that he was not an Apostle? You claim that Judas raising the dead is proof of his belief, could you point me to the verse. I missed it.

So what does 'believe in Jesus' mean as you use the phrase. A cliche, but Satan believes that Jesus exists and is the son of God, does that make Satan a 'believer'?

You seem to dance around the claim that Judas was saved, but lost his salvation, yet you are careful in your wording to say 'believe' and not 'saved'. The careful distinction confuses me.


Did he? Did Judas cast out demons? I know the Apostles collectively went out in pairs and collectively they performed many miracles in Jesus' name, but is there any real evidence that Judas, personally, performed any of those miracles? Did any of the Apostles speak in new tongues prior to Judas death? If not then how is this not then a sign that they did not yet believe, since the promised signs had not manifested.


As I have noted, Judas did not demonstrate all of these things. Other than being chosen and "sent" by Jesus himself (the definition of Apostle) Judas may have done NONE of the things indicating belief.

This is not to say that I claim the bible teaches that Judas never believed any of what Jesus said, or that he always followed out of evil motives, or even that Judas did not perform miracles in Jesus name. What I claim is that I have no irrefutable evidence one way or the other, so the question remains open. I cannot prove Judas did believe once, and I cannot prove that Judas never believed.

I can prove that Judas was not drawn to the Son by the Father as one of those chosen before the foundation of the world, to be sealed with the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing his inheritance and whom Jesus will surely keep and raise up at the last day. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. ( 1 John 2:19 )


I will gladly try to share my opinion of what qualifies as someone who "believes" as soon as I can understand what it is that you mean by believe (assuming that it is not a regenerated heart and a deposit of the Holy Spirit).

I apologize for the lack of specific verses in this post, but the same verses have been quoted a dozen times already.
If anything I wrote is unclear as to which previously posted worse it referees to, just ask and I will gladly clarify.

Right from the get go Jesus said Judas was from the devil. We should know throughout the Scriptures that one is either for or against, and either a slave to sin or to God. Not to mention believing and actually seeing are two different things. People were actually at a disadvantage because Jesus was actually there, or as Jesus said after Thomas said my Lord and my Savior.... "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

I apologize for the lack of specific verses in this post, but the same verses have been quoted a dozen times already.
If anything I wrote is unclear as to which previously posted worse it referees to, just ask and I will gladly clarify.

Same here brother,
God bless,
William

 

[Jim Parker]

Still Judas was a devil and a thief according to John 12:4-64 But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples (he who was to betray him), said, 5 “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” 6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor but because he was a thief, and as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

That says Judas was a thief; it does not say Judas was a devil.
You have inserted your idea into the scripture.
Your idea is not scripture.
jus sayin


iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)






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