LAW

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm teaching what the New Testament teaches, Brother, Chapter and verse.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Acts 15:24


Are you going to sit there and tell me that to teach young Christians that God commands them to circumcise there children is not serious?

Yep.
I'm circumcised. Big deal. And I certainly don't believe that you HAVE to be circumcised to be an obedient Christian who is properly showing his faith in God.

(And after learning about un-circumcision I'm grateful that my folks did that for me.)

That person will grow up believing that in order to be obedient to God [Righteous and Just] they must circumcise there children.

That is exactly what Paul taught against, that is the epitome of another Gospel, in which Paul placed a curse upon those who taught such.

You are committing the great sin of the Protestant Church. It seems you can only hear any argument for law keeping as an argument that people are justified through law keeping. Unless I missed it somehow, Jocor does NOT believe that. He does not endorse that. His argument for circumcision is NOT so that you can be made righteous before God. His argument for circumcision is that it has to be done for the very same reason we insist that one must not steal.

Paul taught against using the law for the purpose of justification. He did not rail against any and all law keeping for any and every reason. This one misunderstanding alone has led to so many erroneous beliefs in the Protestant Church.

 

[JLB]

Yep.
I'm circumcised. Big deal. And I certainly don't believe that you HAVE to be circumcised to be an obedient Christian who is properly showing his faith in God.

(And after learning about un-circumcision I'm grateful that my folks did that for me.)



You are committing the great sin of the Protestant Church. It seems you can only hear any argument for law keeping as an argument that people are justified through law keeping. Unless I missed it somehow, Jocor does NOT believe that. He does not endorse that. His argument for circumcision is NOT so that you can be made righteous before God. His argument for circumcision is that it has to be done for the very same reason we insist that one must not steal.

Paul taught against using the law for the purpose of justification. He did not rail against any and all law keeping for any and every reason. This one misunderstanding alone has led to so many erroneous beliefs in the Protestant Church.

Brother, if a man believes that God commands that New Testament believers circumcise their children, as a requirement, then for him to disobey the requirement to circumcise his child, it is sin.


From post # 628 -

Do you believe that physical Circumcision is a requirement of the New Testament?

Yes or No?

JLB

jocor said -

It is a requirement to circumcise our children. It is not a requirement to circumcise an adult convert.

One can not separate the Law of Moses from circumcision.

If one is not physically circumcised, then it is no use to try and keep the law.


Because he believes Christians are to keep the law of Moses, naturally he believes it's a requirement for Christians to be circumcised.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Brother, if a man believes that God commands that New Testament believers circumcise their children, as a requirement, then for him to disobey the requirement to circumcise his child, it is sin.

That's right. That's why we need to leave him alone so he does not sin against his conscience. Paul explains how he is responsible to his own conscience, not yours, not mine. For him to not do what he is convinced he should do is, for him, sin. We would be sinning if we caused him to violate his own conscience. God is holding him accountable to his conscience whether we want to believe that or not.

One can not separate the Law of Moses from circumcision.

If one is not physically circumcised, then it is no use to try and keep the law.

Actually it is very easy to separate circumcision from the law of Moses (read the next part).

But anyway, he's made the point that if you get saved after you're eight days old it is impossible to keep the law of circumcision according to Moses. Literally impossible. Getting circumcised after eight days does not suddenly satisfy the Mosaic requirement to be circumcised. But I don't know where he's at as far as the law requiring that any gentile male who partakes of the Passover must be circumcised.

Because he believes Christians are to keep the law of Moses, naturally he believes it's a requirement for Christians to be circumcised.

What I find interesting is you are the one that should be insisting that adult males be circumcised since that requirement is before the law and was given to Abraham as a requirement of the Covenant he had with God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one is not physically circumcised, then it is no use to try and keep the law.

Let's be clear here.

If you are not circumcised it is no use to try and keep the law for the purpose of trying to be justified by the law.

Justification by the law is what requires that you keep ALL the law of Moses, not just part of it. But obedience to the law as the expected and obligatory expression of one's faith in God does not require all of the law of Moses to be kept literally. This is an important distinction that many Protestants fail to make about law keeping.

 

[JLB]

Let's be clear here.

If you are not circumcised it is no use to try and keep the law for the purpose of trying to be justified by the law.

Justification by the law is what requires that you keep ALL the law of Moses, not just part of it. But obedience to the law as the expected and obligatory expression of one's faith in God does not require all of the law of Moses to be kept literally. This is an important distinction that many Protestants fail to make about law keeping.

Let's be clear, the law requires that one must be physically circumcised, even as a Gentile who wants to partake of the Passover.

48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48


No Circumcision, No Passover, No law of Moses.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Jethro said -

What I find interesting is you are the one that should be insisting that adult males be circumcised since that requirement is before the law and was given to Abraham as a requirement of the Covenant he had with God.

Please show me where I have said that all adult males should be circumcised.

Really, I'm calling you out!

If you can not show me where I have said that all adult males should be circumcised, then you have deliberately spoken as a false witness against me.

You really have a nasty habit of this, as I have seen you do it with Deb and others when you don't like what they say.



JLB

 

[eddif]

Can you tell if the heart is circumcised, with a heart cath? LOL

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me where I have said that all adult males should be circumcised.

Really, I'm calling you out!

If you can not show me where I have said that all adult males should be circumcised, then you have deliberately spoken as a false witness against me.

You really have a nasty habit of this, as I have seen you do it with Deb and others when you don't like what they say.

Lol! This is funny. This is what I said:

"...you are the one that should be insisting that adult males be circumcised since that requirement is before the law and was given to Abraham..."

Read carefully. I did not say you said that. I said if anyone should be requiring it in the New Covenant it should be you. Perhaps an apology from you is in order here.

 

[eddif]

Deuteronomy 30:6
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

eddif

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's be clear, the law requires that one must be physically circumcised, even as a Gentile who wants to partake of the Passover.

48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it. Exodus 12:48


No Circumcision, No Passover, No law of Moses.


JLB

I think you're nailing him to an argument he is not making. If I'm not mistaken he acknowledges the edict of the Jerusalem elders that removed the obligation for the gentiles to be circumcised.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can you tell if the heart is circumcised, with a heart cath? LOL

eddif

Prolly not, but you can tell if it is by if the deeds of the flesh are absent.

 

[JLB]

I think you're nailing him to an argument he is not making. If I'm not mistaken he acknowledges the edict of the Jerusalem elders that removed the obligation for the gentiles to be circumcised.

Read what he said.

I posted his quote for you to read.

jocor said -

It is a requirment to circumcise our children.

To that I ask - whose requirment ?

There are no scriptures that teach such nonsense.

Jesus purified all foods.

Paul declares observing special days or foods or circumcision is not necessary.

The Levitical priesthood is no more.

The Temple is destroyed.

How could any rational person teach that believers are required to keep the law of Moses?

Total Nonsense.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Read what he said.

I posted his quote for you to read.



To that I ask - whose requirment ?

There are no scriptures that teach such nonsense.

Jesus purified all foods.

Paul declares observing special days or foods or circumcision is not necessary.

The Levitical priesthood is no more.

The Temple is destroyed.

How could any rational person teach that believers are required to keep the law of Moses?

Total Nonsense.


JLB

Scripturally, you need to back off and let him do what his conscience demands. He is obligated to follow what he thinks in his heart he is to do. What I see is you not listening to his argument very well. He's not pushing justification by the law. He's not pushing an absolute letter of the law observance of the law by acknowledging the end of the sacrificial requirements and if I'm not mistaken the edict of the Jerusalem council to forgo circumcision for adult gentile believers. You're being too hard on him. The law of love demands that you give him space and stop condemning him as some kind of evil teacher and give him the right to discover the knowledge me and you have about all this according to his own relationship with God.

 

[JLB]

Scripturally, you need to back off and let him do what his conscience demands. He is obligated to follow what he thinks in his heart he is to do. What I see is you not listening to his argument very well. He's not pushing justification by the law. He's not pushing an absolute letter of the law observance of the law by acknowledging the end of the sacrificial requirements and if I'm not mistaken the edict of the Jerusalem council to forgo circumcision for adult gentile believers. You're being too hard on him. The law of love demands that you give him space and stop condemning him as some kind of evil teacher and give him the right to discover the knowledge me and you have about all this according to his own relationship with God.

I am obligated to post what my conscience and the scriptures clearly teach.

Paul clearly taught that those who teach another Gospel, which in context, is just exactly what we are discussing, are cursed.

I for one don't want other seeking Christians to be compelled or feel obligated to be circumcised of circumcise their children in a misguided attempt to keep the law of Moses.

Paul called this "becoming entangled in a yoke of bondage".

If you have something to teach or share from the scriptures then please do so.

Do you feel we are obligated as a requirment to circumcise our children?

A straight yes or no answer would be refreshing.


JLB

 

[jocor]

But I don't know where he's at as far as the law requiring that any gentile male who partakes of the Passover must be circumcised.

Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Under the NC, we no longer partake of the Passover by eating a sacrificed Passover lamb. Yeshua is our Passover Lamb having fulfilled it. Therefore, a physical circumcision is not needed in that regard. One should still celebrate the memorial of what took place during the exodus and through Yeshua.

Thank you Jethro for understanding my position and attempting to clarify it for JLB. You summarized it well. Evidently JLB is unable to understand either one of us.

 

[jocor]

I for one don't want other seeking Christians to be compelled or feel obligated to be circumcised of circumcise their children in a misguided attempt to keep the law of Moses.

Why did you include "be circumcised" in your statement above? This is how you add to my words in order to discredit me.

Paul called this "becoming entangled in a yoke of bondage".

Wrong. The yoke of bondage is seeking to be justified by the law. I neither do that nor teach that. Please learn what the scriptures mean before you use them to falsely accuse people.

 

[Obadiah]

Not necessarily directed at the above post, but it's Thanksgiving night. Let's take the night off from accusing each other of lieing, discrediting, teaching false doctrine, etc, etc, etc. I need to review this thread anyway, so it's closed until I do that.