lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

[farouk]

[MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]:

Like you say, an importance interpretational principle in Scripture is the distinction between Israel and the church, and more broadly the idea of knowing who the passage in question is talking about.

It used to be said: 'All Scripture is for us; all Scripture is not about us'.

Blessings.

Romans 11 KJV
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What does this scripture say to you?
Why would Paul be concerned for his blood brothers, if ALL his blood brothers, would be saved?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Paul himself answers this when he says in Romans, 'He is not a Jew, but that is one inwardly', and he goes on to distinguish between the mere outward rite of circumcision and the true circumcision of the heart brought by repentance before God.

Paul had a heart for his people after the flesh; this does not mean that his theology was according to the flesh.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Jacob (named Israel) and his sons were given land as an inheritance in the Old Testament.

Yep. God made a promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the land (promised land). That promise went to Isaac then Jacob.....
Who does Paul say this promise (covenant) was made to? Who is the seed of Abraham?

 

[farouk]

Jacob (named Israel) and his sons were given land as an inheritance in the Old Testament.

Yep. God made a promise to Abraham that his seed would inherit the land (promised land). That promise went to Isaac then Jacob.....
Who does Paul say this promise (covenant) was made to? Who is the seed of Abraham?

@Deborah13 :

Abraham was the father of the faithful, so to speak, before circumcision was instituted. The land inheritance via physical circumcision, and the fact that in the church people from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds are justified by faith, are distinct from one another.

Blessings.

 

[gr8grace]

Most Christians do not understand the distinctions between Israel and the Church

What is the distinction between Israel and the Church? Scripture please.

Hello Deb,

This usually scares most people because it is under such attack these days. But one needs to study and understand dispensations. The dispensation of the hypostatic union changed everything. It went from Israel to the Church at the death,burial and resurrection of Our lord and Savior. He is now at this moment dealing with the Church exclusively. Every Jew that believes in this dispensation is a Church age believer and is part of the Church.

For example, Matthew, Chapters 5 - 7, the Sermon on the Mount, describes how mankind will live during the Millennium. In Matthew, Chapters 24 and 25, the famous Olivet Discourse applies to Israel, and has absolutely no application to us. In fact, many of the scriptures given in Matthew 24 and 25 have to do with how the Jews are going to survive during the Tribulation. However, in the Gospels you also have John, Chapters 14 through 17, which deal with the Church Age .

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]:

Like you say, an importance interpretational principle in Scripture is the distinction between Israel and the church, and more broadly the idea of knowing who the passage in question is talking about.

It used to be said: 'All Scripture is for us; all Scripture is not about us'.

Blessings.

Romans 11 KJV
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

What does this scripture say to you?
Why would Paul be concerned for his blood brothers, if ALL his blood brothers, would be saved?

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Paul himself answers this when he says in Romans, 'He is not a Jew, but that is one inwardly', and he goes on to distinguish between the mere outward rite of circumcision and the true circumcision of the heart brought by repentance before God.

Paul had a heart for his people after the flesh; this does not mean that his theology was according to the flesh.

Blessings.

Yes, Paul says exactly that.
Paul was concerned because NOT ALL genetic blood Israel would be saved.

We know in Elijah's day, God tells him there is a remnant of 7,000 that were true believers, believers by faith. They didn't know Jesus as Jesus but they knew God, they had a personal relationship with God.

Is God going to resurrect ALL the nation of Israel and give them a second chance during the 1,000 reign?

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: You mean, dead unbelievers to come back to life in case they believe? I don't see any Scripture for this.

Blessings.

 

[Deborah13]

Most Christians do not understand the distinctions between Israel and the Church

What is the distinction between Israel and the Church? Scripture please.

Hello Deb,

This usually scares most people because it is under such attack these days. But one needs to study and understand dispensations. The dispensation of the hypostatic union changed everything. It went from Israel to the Church at the death,burial and resurrection of Our lord and Savior. He is now at this moment dealing with the Church exclusively. Every Jew that believes in this dispensation is a Church age believer and is part of the Church.

For example, Matthew, Chapters 5 - 7, the Sermon on the Mount, describes how mankind will live during the Millennium. In Matthew, Chapters 24 and 25, the famous Olivet Discourse applies to Israel, and has absolutely no application to us. In fact, many of the scriptures given in Matthew 24 and 25 have to do with how the Jews are going to survive during the Tribulation. However, in the Gospels you also have John, Chapters 14 through 17, which deal with the Church Age .

Sorry gr8grace, but you did answer the question I asked.
What is the distinction between Israel and the Church? Scripture please.

You said, some scripture is to the Jews only. I agree.

 

[Deborah13]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: You mean, dead unbelievers to come back to life in case they believe? I don't see any Scripture for this.

Blessings.

I agree, so if ALL the nation of Israel is to be saved, how can that be. Many have died in the past 2,000 yrs. What about them?

 

[gr8grace]

Most Christians do not understand the distinctions between Israel and the Church

What is the distinction between Israel and the Church? Scripture please.

Hello Deb,

This usually scares most people because it is under such attack these days. But one needs to study and understand dispensations. The dispensation of the hypostatic union changed everything. It went from Israel to the Church at the death,burial and resurrection of Our lord and Savior. He is now at this moment dealing with the Church exclusively. Every Jew that believes in this dispensation is a Church age believer and is part of the Church.

For example, Matthew, Chapters 5 - 7, the Sermon on the Mount, describes how mankind will live during the Millennium. In Matthew, Chapters 24 and 25, the famous Olivet Discourse applies to Israel, and has absolutely no application to us. In fact, many of the scriptures given in Matthew 24 and 25 have to do with how the Jews are going to survive during the Tribulation. However, in the Gospels you also have John, Chapters 14 through 17, which deal with the Church Age .

Sorry gr8grace, but you did answer the question I asked.
What is the distinction between Israel and the Church? Scripture please.

You said, some scripture is to the Jews only. I agree.

You will find these distinctions through study of covenants, dispensations and mystery doctrine. I am sorry Deb, I do not have time to look up every individual scripture. Plus it does come through study and not necessarily memorizing scripture.

Israel
Church
Shadow Christology....Israel
Historical Christology...church
Covenants..Israel
Baptism of the Spirit...Church
Jewish Client Nation....Israel
Gentile Client Nations...church
Old Testament Canon....Israel
New Testament Canon....Church
Shekinah Glory indwelt the Holy of Holies....Israel
Every Believer indwelt by the Shekinah Glory...Church
1% were endued with power...Israel
100% Availability of divine power...Church
Faith Rest Drill....Israel
Filling of the Spirit...Church
JHWH-Jehovah Elohim....Israel
Iesou Christou-Jesus Christ.....Church
Limited spiritual gifts.....Israel
Every believer has a spiritual gift.....Church
Levitical Priesthood.....Israel
Universal Royal Priesthood.....Church
Mosaic Law.....Israel
Mystery Doctrine.....Church
Ritual Plan of God....Israel
Plan of God for the Church Age.....Church
Earthly Promises...Israel
Heavenly Citizenship....Church

New Racial Species....Israel
New Spiritual Species.....Church
Prophecy....Israel
No Prophecy-Historical Trends....Church
Visible Heroes.....Israel
Invisible Heroes....Church
Extraordinary believer.....Israel
Ordinary believer....Church
Incomplete Canon of Scripture....Israel
Completed Canon of Scripture.....Church
Visible signs preceding 2nd Advent...Israel
No visible signs preceding Rapture.....Church

 

[Deborah13]

You will find these distinctions through study of covenants, dispensations and mystery doctrine.

Oh gr8grace, you took the time to do this and I do appreciate it.

What is a New Racial Species?

 

[gr8grace]

You will find these distinctions through study of covenants, dispensations and mystery doctrine.

Oh gr8grace, you took the time to do this and I do appreciate it.

What is a New Racial Species?

Abram was a gentile. God Created the first Jew in Abram to Abraham. The new racial species, Gods election of the Jew/Israel.

 

[Deborah13]

You will find these distinctions through study of covenants, dispensations and mystery doctrine.

Oh gr8grace, you took the time to do this and I do appreciate it.

What is a New Racial Species?

Abram was a gentile. God Created the first Jew in Abram to Abraham. The new racial species, Gods election of the Jew/Israel.

Ok.
So when Ruth, Rahab, and I suspect many others became Hebrews (Jews) by faith, did they become this new racial species?
What of these days? Are those who become Hebrews (Jews) by faith, become this new racial species?

 

[Watchmen for Christ]

1 Corinthians 12:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.


Romans 10:11-13

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.




Romans 3:28-30

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Romans 9:23-25

King James Version (KJV)

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


Ephesians 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Rev 7 1-8 the 144,000 but wait...there's more:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


satan tries to fool many into thinking the tribulation is for Jews only and the warning Jesus Christ gives against the so called "pre trib rapture" is for Jews only in matt 24 mark 13 Luke 21 which is a lie.
Jesus Christ died for all, race doesn't matter concerning salvation, either one believes in and ON Jesus Christ and refuses to worship satan or one doesn't. Being Jew or gentlie alone will NOT get someone into heaven. the devil adds the mistiming of pre trib to paul's quote of matt 24:30-31 and makes out as if the church is going to be gathered first when Jesus Christ says His return and our gathering is after the tribulation and in matt 13 makes it plain the tares will be gathered first.

Jesus Christ says before the 2nd advent rapture false Christs come claiming to be Him matt 24:4-5,mark 13 :5-6, luke 21:8, matt 24:21-28, mark 13:19-29 and for believers to NOT follow after them for His coming is post trib matt 24:29-31,mark 13/luke 21. paul also says the Lord's return and our rapture to Him shall not come till the falling away 1st and satan is revealed to be worshiped and repeats the Lord is him who's parousia is after the working of satan

the devil is very crafty using race as if being another color makes a difference, we're all members of the same body of Christ Jesus by faith, satan wants all he can to think the coming of false Christs is Jesus coming to fly them away before the tribulation only they lead to satan claiming to be God on the mount.

 

[gr8grace]

You will find these distinctions through study of covenants, dispensations and mystery doctrine.

Oh gr8grace, you took the time to do this and I do appreciate it.

What is a New Racial Species?

Abram was a gentile. God Created the first Jew in Abram to Abraham. The new racial species, Gods election of the Jew/Israel.

Ok.
So when Ruth, Rahab, and I suspect many others became Hebrews (Jews) by faith, did they become this new racial species?
What of these days? Are those who become Hebrews (Jews) by faith, become this new racial species?

No Ruth and Rahab and the many others did not turn into a new racial species. They were saved and believed in the God of the Jews.They may have believed and followed the Jewish beliefs but their race was not changed. The jews were Gods client nation to bring God to all others in the OT.

The Church is Gods client nation today, we bring the gospel to all, even the Jews. If a Jew believes today he is part of the royal family of God.

That is one of the distinctions of Israel and the Church.

Israel~~ the family of God.

Church~~ The Royal family of God.

29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
These days no one can become a racial Jew, in the past no one could become a racial Jew. You have to be physically born a Jew to be a racial Jew.

The Church has many royal blessings for believing with out signs and wonders. The Jew(most Jews) need signs and wonders.

 

[Eventide]

You mean like this..

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

I hear ya. You don't have to convince me the importance of Israel as the bible is basically a book about Israel, but became subject to Gentiles' thoughts. And I can't imagine this text being taken other than literally --- certainly this is not an allegory by the context, and this is not some replacement theology "spiritual Israel" since he clearly mentions genealogies which is of the flesh. Funny thing is that while this passage about Israel is explained away to save the skin of someone's cherished theology, other passages of Paul are taken literally enough. Go figure.

Amen tim-from-pa. Great to hear some fresh thoughts around here...

I can't see this sitting very well in this forum no matter how point blank obvious it is, there will always be those who make it say pretty much the exact opposite of what it does say in simplicity and truth.

 

[turnorburn]

Abram was a Gentile?

tob

 

[tim-from-pa]

You know, the more I read these posts, the more I'm starting to think maybe some of us are talking one plane and some others another. If we are all trying to understand the role of Israel in history vs. the church in a salvation perspective only, as in how to die and get to heaven, then that's an extremely myopic view, because the whole thing isn't about getting saved, dying and going to heaven and that's it. I think those who look at it this way tend to think Law/grace and since we are not under Law (associated with Israel) that Israel's purpose is done, and are no more than a historical curiosity. I think they also look at the covenants as basically two when there were a lot more so Old Testament and New Testament are misnomers. That totally lacks any eschatological view whatsoever. When I say chosen, I can also mean the chosen of race which are Kingdom and earthly promises, and has nothing to do with eternal life (yet, these promises play a role both past and the future of God's plan). It's possible to be chosen and perish in the lake of fire one day. Likewise, one can be from another people and not chosen and yet live.

 

[jasoncran]

Abram was a gentile. God Created the first Jew in Abram to Abraham. The new racial species, Gods election of the Jew/Israel.

Ok.
So when Ruth, Rahab, and I suspect many others became Hebrews (Jews) by faith, did they become this new racial species?
What of these days? Are those who become Hebrews (Jews) by faith, become this new racial species?

No Ruth and Rahab and the many others did not turn into a new racial species. They were saved and believed in the God of the Jews.They may have believed and followed the Jewish beliefs but their race was not changed. The jews were Gods client nation to bring God to all others in the OT.

The Church is Gods client nation today, we bring the gospel to all, even the Jews. If a Jew believes today he is part of the royal family of God.

That is one of the distinctions of Israel and the Church.

Israel~~ the family of God.

Church~~ The Royal family of God.

29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
These days no one can become a racial Jew, in the past no one could become a racial Jew. You have to be physically born a Jew to be a racial Jew.

The Church has many royal blessings for believing with out signs and wonders. The Jew(most Jews) need signs and wonders.

HOW does one come to that with conclusion with the jews? i mean really. i am a jew. my brother is jew, we both are saved. my aunt is attending a Baptist church and signs had nothing to do with that. a simple wedding does that. jews TODAY teach that moshiac need NOT do miracles do be the MOSHIAC! all he has to do is to restore the land to jews fully and also restore the temple and teach the torah and restore it.

nothing like what the "church" teaches. why not ask a jew what they believe. it may be interesting. what i quoted comes from the Chassidic jews. not all jews agree on that.

 

[jasoncran]

[MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]. abram was Hebrew not a jew. next he was also called before. circumcision is a sign of the promise as abram doubted the promise.
abram was aslo in the promised land before he was circumcised.
all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

 

[Eventide]

Let's consider post #7 as the OP of this thread, it's the meat of what Paul is teaching in Romans 11.

If any want to comment, then please tell us what you believe this portion of the word of God is teaching.

I already shared that I think it's very obvious and literal. If anyone doesn't think that's the case, then explain why.