lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

[Deborah13]

Israel~~ the family of God.

Church~~ The Royal family of God.

Ok, I'm following you.
So today, if a person that is not a genetic Jew marries a genetic Jew, but they take the Jewish faith, they are not of Israel (the family of God) and they are not of the Church (The Royal family of God). So they do not have a family?

 

[Eventide]

And, if I may... Throw another wrench into the works here.

The nation of Israel is currently cut off from the root (Christ), they're blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Do people understand that ? How that their house has been left desolate (early Acts) since their continued rejection of the gospel of God's Son...

Does everyone understand that Israel is the only nation on earth that is not Gentile ?

 

[jasoncran]

i am discuss the idea of "isreal". the BIG problem i have with futurism in this area of the doctrine is that now jew in America nor the world will count as isreal. they cant.why because that means that the people were saved not the land thus negating the need for the temple and any relocation to palenstine to have a nation there to be saved or to return.

any Hebrew who comes to Christ "loses" his need to be a jew. it doesn't matter. only be saved does. if you doubt see galatians 3 and that verse that god isn't a respecter of persons.

 

[gr8grace]

Abram was a gentile. God Created the first Jew in Abram to Abraham. The new racial species, Gods election of the Jew/Israel.

Ok.
So when Ruth, Rahab, and I suspect many others became Hebrews (Jews) by faith, did they become this new racial species?
What of these days? Are those who become Hebrews (Jews) by faith, become this new racial species?

No Ruth and Rahab and the many others did not turn into a new racial species. They were saved and believed in the God of the Jews.They may have believed and followed the Jewish beliefs but their race was not changed. The jews were Gods client nation to bring God to all others in the OT.

The Church is Gods client nation today, we bring the gospel to all, even the Jews. If a Jew believes today he is part of the royal family of God.

That is one of the distinctions of Israel and the Church.

Israel~~ the family of God.

Church~~ The Royal family of God.

29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
These days no one can become a racial Jew, in the past no one could become a racial Jew. You have to be physically born a Jew to be a racial Jew.

The Church has many royal blessings for believing with out signs and wonders. The Jew(most Jews) need signs and wonders.

HOW does one come to that with conclusion with the jews? i mean really. i am a jew. my brother is jew, we both are saved. my aunt is attending a Baptist church and signs had nothing to do with that. a simple wedding does that. jews TODAY teach that moshiac need NOT do miracles do be the MOSHIAC! all he has to do is to restore the land to jews fully and also restore the temple and teach the torah and restore it.

nothing like what the "church" teaches. why not ask a jew what they believe. it may be interesting. what i quoted comes from the Chassidic jews. not all jews agree on that.

Jason that is why i put in (most Jews). Jews Today preach moshiac need not do miracles, because they LOOK for miracles!

The OT is nothing but signs and wonders from God and The Jew still rejected their Savior.

Gentiles~~ look to their own intellect, reason,logic.

Jews ~~ look for signs and wonders.

 

[Eventide]

It's sad that some people just want to create confusion, they can't refute the OP so they use diversion tactics and talk about anything but the OP.

I really don't understand why any professing Christian would do that, but it happens all the time.

Rant off, back to the OP... Does anyone have comments concerning what it does teach..?

 

[reba]

It sure es Eventide it sure is

 

[jasoncran]

And, if I may... Throw another wrench into the works here.

The nation of Israel is currently cut off from the root (Christ), they're blinded in part until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Do people understand that ? How that their house has been left desolate (early Acts) since their continued rejection of the gospel of God's Son...

Does everyone understand that Israel is the only nation on earth that is not Gentile ?

But setting aside the emotional issues, Jews are clearly not a race.
Race is a genetic distinction, and refers to people with shared ancestry and shared genetic traits. You can't change your race; it's in your DNA. I could never become black or Asian no matter how much I might want to.
Common ancestry is not required to be a Jew. Many Jews worldwide share common ancestry, as shown by genetic research; however, you can be a Jew without sharing this common ancestry, for example, by converting. Thus, although I could never become black or Asian, blacks and Asians have become Jews (Sammy Davis Jr. and Connie Chung).
Is It a Culture or Ethnic Group?

Most secular American Jews think of their Jewishness as a matter of culture or ethnicity. When they think of Jewish culture, they think of the food, of the Yiddish language, of some limited holiday observances, and of cultural values like the emphasis on education.
Those secular American Jews would probably be surprised to learn that much of what they think of as Jewish culture is really just Ashkenazic Jewish culture, the culture of Jews whose ancestors come from one part of the world. Jews have lived in many parts of the world and have developed many different traditions. As a Sephardic friend likes to remind me, Yiddish is not part of his culture, nor are bagels and lox, chopped liver, latkes, gefilte fish or matzah ball soup. His idea of Jewish cooking includes bourekas, phyllo dough pastries filled with cheese or spinach. His ancestors probably wouldn't know what to do with a dreidel.

i figured that there was some difference tween the shepardic and Ashkenazi. just not that much.


the modern state of isreal is more Arabic in nationality then jews. jews are the minority. of the arabs in the land most of them are Christians. and jews are no longer staying pure to the jewish idea of marry only jews.only the orthodox do that. the reformed and consertive no longer as far as i know preach that. they may but i know that its not as bad.

so if the larger jews that don't practice the faith marry outside the family as many jews don't attend temple and are athiests.then what ? this link says 50% of jews in America and isreal don't practice the faith and also there are gentiles who become jews? so does Sammy davis jr, and connie chung count and also the man i mentioned who is Chassidic jew that was murdered in the Bronx as well being isreal?


jews do allow converts.

Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz has suggested a better analogy for the Jewish people: We are a family. See the third essay in his 2005 book, We Jews: Who Are We and What Should We Do. But though this is a relatively new book, it is certainly not a new concept: throughout the Bible and Jewish literature, the Jewish people are referred to as "the Children of Israel," a reference to the fact that we are all the physical or spiritual descendants of the Patriarch Jacob, who was later called Israel. In other words, we are part of his extended family.

funny that is what the bible says doesn't it.paul is saying that in the same way. nah lets not forget that the bible is jewish in thinking and if the tanach did something the brit chadosh likely mirrors it too. and we see that right now!

romans 10 mentions a that the gentiles are grafted in the tree and isreal.nothing new at all.


http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

 

[Eventide]

It sure does Eventide it sure does

I know, never mind... What was I possibly thinking.

 

[gr8grace]

[MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]. abram was Hebrew not a jew. next he was also called before. circumcision is a sign of the promise as abram doubted the promise.
abram was aslo in the promised land before he was circumcised.
all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

Interesting Jason. So Abraham was not a Jew. Who was the First Jew?

 

[jasoncran]

No Ruth and Rahab and the many others did not turn into a new racial species. They were saved and believed in the God of the Jews.They may have believed and followed the Jewish beliefs but their race was not changed. The jews were Gods client nation to bring God to all others in the OT.

The Church is Gods client nation today, we bring the gospel to all, even the Jews. If a Jew believes today he is part of the royal family of God.

That is one of the distinctions of Israel and the Church.

Israel~~ the family of God.

Church~~ The Royal family of God.

29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
These days no one can become a racial Jew, in the past no one could become a racial Jew. You have to be physically born a Jew to be a racial Jew.

The Church has many royal blessings for believing with out signs and wonders. The Jew(most Jews) need signs and wonders.

HOW does one come to that with conclusion with the jews? i mean really. i am a jew. my brother is jew, we both are saved. my aunt is attending a Baptist church and signs had nothing to do with that. a simple wedding does that. jews TODAY teach that moshiac need NOT do miracles do be the MOSHIAC! all he has to do is to restore the land to jews fully and also restore the temple and teach the torah and restore it.

nothing like what the "church" teaches. why not ask a jew what they believe. it may be interesting. what i quoted comes from the Chassidic jews. not all jews agree on that.

Jason that is why i put in (most Jews). Jews Today preach moshiac need not do miracles, because they LOOK for miracles!

The OT is nothing but signs and wonders from God and The Jew still rejected their Savior.

Gentiles~~ look to their own intellect, reason,logic.

Jews ~~ look for signs and wonders.

the jews think differently but i am asking you today, and now. you clearly see the bible from a gentile perspective. i have at times taken the bible from the jewish thinking. tis way different. but that isn't even from that verse. the jews see the bible and words and don't have to have signs and wonders to believe. i know my aunt raised in the temple and fluent in Hebrew is drawn in to the Baptist church. she does all the feasts. she also loves the Baptists. that is NOT any sign seeking person but a god whom is drawing her. my dad also is jewish and is the same in being a jew. he is no longer is in the temple and living that. he isn't for Christ either, last time i observed him. his issue is likely i don't want to live for Christ. he does pray to Christ. i have seen him pray to Christ for blessings and so forth over meals. he may be saved but i have my doubts. my brother reaches the family better then i can.

when you mention jesus to a jew they see this:

Christ killer, devil, hitler, and also the purges

my dad has mentioned that to me and my brother a time or two. jews approach the bible in a way that is hard for a gentile to see and it has nothing to do with logic or signs. they approach it from their own way of seeing things. ie they don't expect nor look for every answerable thing about genesis, just take the thing as story and use that to learn. they see the bible as a story. they teach the word "know" as to we liken to knowing person for his traits. so when they talk about the Heshem and his name that is how they teach what YHWH means. the YHWH wasn't revealed to Abraham. he knew of it that name but didn't know the character of God that way. that is the difference.

i could go into why the jews don't see jesus know and yes it has blindness but that is lengthy discussion and it has very little in common with futuristism. Christ didn't do what they wanted him to do. they believe then as they do today that he didn't restore isreal, that he didn't also restore the torah, as moses and his torah is unchangeable. Christ changed the torah in their eyes, and they are correct! he fulfilled the law to the t and we arent under its curse. he did this by rendering it obsolete.

 

[jasoncran]

@gr8grace . abram was Hebrew not a jew. next he was also called before. circumcision is a sign of the promise as abram doubted the promise.
abram was aslo in the promised land before he was circumcised.
all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

Interesting Jason. So Abraham was not a Jew. Who was the First Jew?

Judah, Judah the son of Jacob and also the son named Benjamin. but they then didn't call themselves "jewish" that didn't even exist until the division of isreal by the lord. so therefore, Judah and Benjamin and any levite there would be called a Judean. but all modern jews come from the Judeans who came back from the first diaspora. that may include the other tribes , that isn't traceable anymore.

 

[jasoncran]

i have never heard any Chassidic jew say they are looking for a miracle. its their teaching that the moshiac need not heal or anything. they use jesus as an example of that to show that he wasn't their messiah despite healing and so forth.most jews that i know have come to the lord. simply came because of the cross and their lives were a mess.

 

[gr8grace]

You mean like this..

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Do you take this as " every individual" that is racially Jew?

 

[gr8grace]

[MENTION=95330]gr8grace[/MENTION]. abram was Hebrew not a jew. next he was also called before. circumcision is a sign of the promise as abram doubted the promise.
abram was aslo in the promised land before he was circumcised.
all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

Interesting Jason. So Abraham was not a Jew. Who was the First Jew?

Judah, Judah the son of Jacob and also the Benjamin. but they then didn't call themselves "jewish" that didn't even exist until the division of isreal by the lord. so therefore, Judah and Benjamin and any levite there would be called a Judean. but all modern jews come from the Judeans who came back from the first diaspora. that may include the other tribes , that isn't traceable anymore.

So it would be wrong for me to say that Abraham was a Jew? Do you think He was a Jew?

 

[Deborah13]

all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

So let me see if I've got this right.

Abram was a Hebrew, a citizen of Hebron, in Canaan, a gentile nation?

God called him out, to become the father of a peculiar people?

The Jews are the people of Judah/Israel = Kingdom of Judah?

Could we say that over time their genetics became more specific to their group, as they didn't marry outside their own nation?
ethnogenesis?
(The Samaritans in Israel today have Very pure genetics for this reason. They have started allowing marrying to Jews because they had so many birth defects from inbreeding.)

Jews say that anyone who converts to the Jewish faith IS Jewish. They distinguish themselves by their faith?

 

[gr8grace]

i have never heard any Chassidic jew say they are looking for a miracle. its their teaching that the moshiac need not heal or anything. they use jesus as an example of that to show that he wasn't their messiah despite healing and so forth.most jews that i know have come to the lord. simply came because of the cross and their lives were a mess.

So do you think that the Majority of Jews have put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation?

 

[Eventide]

You mean like this..

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Do you take this as " every individual" that is racially Jew?

I'm assuming you mean "all Israel" ? If so, Paul tells us that not all Israel is Israel... Any Israelite was justified by faith and there are obviously countless Israelites justified by faith long before Christ.

This is the Israel of God.

 

[jasoncran]

its a minor issue. most jews say that but if im being technical and we should. Abraham could be said like this. he is the father of the Hebrews, there for the father of the jews. though he wasn't a "jew". a jew will say that he was since the jew are his children.i know that is clear is mud. but remember Abraham was called a habiru then and that is where the word Hebrew comes from and the language. that is what a jew speaks. he doesn't speak jewish.a jew will call him a jew at times because they see them as he was in his nature. thus he was a "jew"
kinda like "our god is a jewish god" that is true in part because he was a god to the jews and still is to those that believed him. yet he isn't a jew at all. well i could really really derail this on what the jewish identity is and show you how Abraham was very much like jesus and also why we see the idea of Abrahams bosom and what that means.in short. god used every thing that Abraham did and taught to teach the Hebrews about himself.from the marriage rites. to the idea of hospitality and being a neighbor(Abraham did this) and also how abram sought wives for his sons. of course god added to that as other men he used.

 

[jasoncran]

i have never heard any Chassidic jew say they are looking for a miracle. its their teaching that the moshiac need not heal or anything. they use jesus as an example of that to show that he wasn't their messiah despite healing and so forth.most jews that i know have come to the lord. simply came because of the cross and their lives were a mess.

So do you think that the Majority of Jews have put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation?

those that come forth? some may be Christians and hide and still go to the temple. idk with the numbers but if we were to take from the cross to the present and could know how much. i say that the jews saved would be over a million or two. imho. that places the nation of the true isreal that paul mentions almost back to before she was nearly wiped out in ad 70. remember there are many gentiles who are jewish and don't know it. that could be counted. i know a few that have known later.

 

[jasoncran]

all jews are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are jews. please get that right.

So let me see if I've got this right.

Abram was a Hebrew, a citizen of Hebron, in Canaan, a gentile nation?

God called him out, to become the father of a peculiar people?

The Jews are the people of Judah/Israel = Kingdom of Judah?

Could we say that over time their genetics became more specific to their group, as they didn't marry outside their own nation?
ethnogenesis?
(The Samaritans in Israel today have Very pure genetics for this reason. They have started allowing marrying to Jews because they had so many birth defects from inbreeding.)

Jews say that anyone who converts to the Jewish faith IS Jewish. They distinguish themselves by their faith?

i see that you read that link. Abraham was from ur,which is the Chaldean land which is actually aramiac in tounge. i don't see the connection to hebron . the nation of Judah is where the jews in general come from but remember that at times the other tribes joined them in revival and likely stayed there. those that left isreal and went to those revivals. this is mentioned in the chronicles of the kings and its when Hezekiah restored the worship and shabat and Passover. both Ephraim and mannaseh came to Judah for that.