Yes it is false. I showed you why, read the thread. Lets not get personal, Im not here to discuss you personally or myself, Im here to speak on and discuss the Person and Work of Jesus Christ ! Why Limited atonement is True and why unlimited atonement is not !
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
whatever
I agree with this.
I agree with this.
journeyman
Member
We should discuss ourselves personally, because the Person and Work of Jesus Christ is in us.
Believing he conquered death. Believing isn't the great part. Conquering death is the great part. Believing it is simply reasonable.
Like the bewilderment of his disciples, until they saw our risen Lord. Then what? Then they followed him.
So we hold on tight to him, which shows our need. Why do you have a problem with this?
Since you want to discuss our persons personally, I suggest you find another forum. In this forum we will discuss Christ and what He did, His Person.
The death of Christ is limited to the sons or children of God Jn 11:50-52
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Because they are children God sends the Spirit in their hearts to seal them Gal 4:4-6
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
But all will not receive the Spirit Jn 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Receiving the Spirit is proof Christ died for you. Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Because they are children God sends the Spirit in their hearts to seal them Gal 4:4-6
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
But all will not receive the Spirit Jn 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Receiving the Spirit is proof Christ died for you. Acts 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Did Christ die for those represented in this world Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 11
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 11
Did Jesus Christ die for them which its written Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ?
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ?
Obtained Eternal Redemption for us !
Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
We can perceive from this scripture that Christ could not have shed His Redeeming Blood for all mankind, since those He did shed His Own Blood For [His Church Acts 20:28] He for them obtained Eternal Redemption.
This Eternal Redemption isnt conditioned upon mans freewill or man having to make a decision, its totally based upon Christs Own Blood. This is something Christ had success in, what He set out to do. The word obtained in our text is the word heyriskō and it means:
I find, learn, discover, especially after searching.
And its in the middle voice, meaning its obtained for Himself and His Body whom Hes One with Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
And this what He obtained redemption lytrōsis
And we know all men without exception have not been delivered from the penalty of sin ! So Christ could not have shed His Own Blood for them !
Heb 9:12
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
We can perceive from this scripture that Christ could not have shed His Redeeming Blood for all mankind, since those He did shed His Own Blood For [His Church Acts 20:28] He for them obtained Eternal Redemption.
This Eternal Redemption isnt conditioned upon mans freewill or man having to make a decision, its totally based upon Christs Own Blood. This is something Christ had success in, what He set out to do. The word obtained in our text is the word heyriskō and it means:
I find, learn, discover, especially after searching.
And its in the middle voice, meaning its obtained for Himself and His Body whom Hes One with Heb 2:11
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
And this what He obtained redemption lytrōsis
- a ransoming, redemption
- deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin
And we know all men without exception have not been delivered from the penalty of sin ! So Christ could not have shed His Own Blood for them !
Those Christ died for and with His Own Blood obtained Eternal Redemption, because of the efficasiousness of His Blood, they can never come under the penalty of sin, nor the law and satans dominion ! 12
He died for many, not all
for by his righteousness many {not all} were justified, {Is.53:11,} because he bare or suffered for their iniquities;
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.13
for by his righteousness many {not all} were justified, {Is.53:11,} because he bare or suffered for their iniquities;
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Heb 9:28
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.13
Christs Death is limited to them that are the called !
Heb 9:12-15
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
It was Gods purpose in Christs Death that certain people might receive Eternal Life, or Eternal Inheritance, not everyone, but " they which are called" !
Now the called in Vs 15 are a specific, definite people since the writer uses the definite article for the called ! All without exception are not the called.
There are a specific group of people in this world that the called, Rom 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
See " them that are the called here" must be distinguished from all others
1 Cor 1:23-24
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
See how the called here are distinguished, set apart from the others, whether they be jews of gentiles, the called are set apart people from the rest of the world. Paul writes to the same Corinithians earlier 1 Cor 1:1-2
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
The called have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, that is set apart from the rest of the world, and so it is for all for whom Christ died. Heb 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body/death of Jesus Christ/ once for all.
Heb 9:12-15
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
It was Gods purpose in Christs Death that certain people might receive Eternal Life, or Eternal Inheritance, not everyone, but " they which are called" !
Now the called in Vs 15 are a specific, definite people since the writer uses the definite article for the called ! All without exception are not the called.
There are a specific group of people in this world that the called, Rom 8:28
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
See " them that are the called here" must be distinguished from all others
1 Cor 1:23-24
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
See how the called here are distinguished, set apart from the others, whether they be jews of gentiles, the called are set apart people from the rest of the world. Paul writes to the same Corinithians earlier 1 Cor 1:1-2
Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
The called have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, that is set apart from the rest of the world, and so it is for all for whom Christ died. Heb 10:10
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body/death of Jesus Christ/ once for all.
Salvation has always been limited to Gods Elect, Yea even the Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus with Eternal Glory. 2 Tim 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
This compliments the OT annoucement Isa 46:13
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Salvation is solely for Israel, Gods Elect from out of the jews and Gentiles.14
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
This compliments the OT annoucement Isa 46:13
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
Salvation is solely for Israel, Gods Elect from out of the jews and Gentiles.14
If Calvinism we're true, why would there be any point in discussing it?
The predestined Elect will inevitably find God, the non-Elect won't, and never the twain shall meet. So why discuss it at all?
Why preach Calvinism to the non-Elect? They aren't going to join the Elect.
Why preach it to the Elect? God's call to them is irresistible.
It always seems to that Calvinists are trying to convince themselves it isn't as theologically hollow as it is.
Calvin wasn't a fool, of course. You can construct a Calvinist theology from the Bible. It's just that the theology is contrary to the very nature of God as Christians understand it, contrary to Jesus' message, and reduces the creation to a largely pointless exercise by God.
I accept that I can't see things from God's eternal perspective. I accept that God's ways are not my ways, God's thoughts are not my thoughts.
But I have enough respect for myself and my fellow humans that I refuse to accept any doctrine that seems unworthy of any God I can even imagine.
The predestined Elect will inevitably find God, the non-Elect won't, and never the twain shall meet. So why discuss it at all?
Why preach Calvinism to the non-Elect? They aren't going to join the Elect.
Why preach it to the Elect? God's call to them is irresistible.
It always seems to that Calvinists are trying to convince themselves it isn't as theologically hollow as it is.
Calvin wasn't a fool, of course. You can construct a Calvinist theology from the Bible. It's just that the theology is contrary to the very nature of God as Christians understand it, contrary to Jesus' message, and reduces the creation to a largely pointless exercise by God.
I accept that I can't see things from God's eternal perspective. I accept that God's ways are not my ways, God's thoughts are not my thoughts.
But I have enough respect for myself and my fellow humans that I refuse to accept any doctrine that seems unworthy of any God I can even imagine.
Then if you died and went to Heaven, and they told you that all those things the Calvinists said was true, you would tell them to send you to Hell because you can't respect a God like that?
If I die and am told that my Calvinist stuff was wrong, it wouldn't make any difference to me. God wouldn't have changed, just my understanding.
If Calvinism were true, and I found myself in Heaven, then by definition I'd be one the Elect. Right? I'd simply thank God and ask for an explanation as to how and why he wasn't the moral monster Calvinism had always made him seem.
If Calvinism is false, the God of your present understanding is going to be quite different from the God you actually encounter. The Jesus of your present understanding is going to be quite different from the Jesus you encounter. The basis of your salvation as you presently understand it is going to be quite different from the actual basis of salvation. God's entire plan of creation is going to be quite different from what you understand it to be and are promoting as the Gospel.
I wouldn't be so confident that if your "Calvinist stuff was wrong" it won't make any difference to you.
runner
Thats like saying, if the Gospel is true, there is no point in discussing it.
Thats like saying, if the Gospel is true, there is no point in discussing it.
Christ didnt die for all mankind, but He died for them that had their names written in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundation of the World Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Lk 10:20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.16
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Lk 10:20
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.16
And you would probably be told that "God being a moral monster" was just because you were looking at things from a purely human perspective.
That God only intended Salvation for a particular people, and Christ died only for that people is seen in Gods Covenant Promises,
Gen 17:7
.And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Salvation is promised to a specific seed Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Gen 17:7
.And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”
Heb 8:10
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Salvation is promised to a specific seed Rom 4:16
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
We know Jesus Christ Death was Limited, and not for all because Christ by his death has not taken away the sins of all men; for the wrath of God comes upon the children of disobedience for their sins. Eph 5:6
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Because those whom Christ died, their sins have been taken away ! Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 17
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Because those whom Christ died, their sins have been taken away ! Jn 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 17