Limited atonement !

[journeyman]

Yes it is false. I showed you why, read the thread. Lets not get personal, Im not here to discuss you personally or myself, Im here to speak on and discuss the Person and Work of Jesus Christ ! Why Limited atonement is True and why unlimited atonement is not !

No need to discuss ourselves, but it is necessary for us to think about our own individual relationship with him.
I know without any doubt that God is not unjust.

 

[Iconoclast]

That God only intended Salvation for a particular people, and Christ died only for that people is seen in Gods Covenant Promises,

Gen 17:7

.And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.”

Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Salvation is promised to a specific seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Do you notice those who despise the doctrines of grace never deal with the Covenants.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you notice those who despise the doctrines of grace never deal with the Covenants.

I don't see the correlation. Explain please.

 

[Iconoclast]

If Calvinism we're true,

There is no if ! It is true

why would there be any point in discussing it?

God's truth is revealed by the faithful teaching of it. That you and others want to oppose it, cannot stop it because it is God bringing to pass what He has ordained. psa115:
3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

The predestined Elect will inevitably find God,

Jesus finds them He seeks and saves them. The Father gave them to Jesus, he does not lose any of them

the non-Elect won't,

Correct. They have a love of sin, they find that all the time.

and never the twain shall meet. So why discuss it at all?

God has ordained the faithful teaching and preaching of the word to effectually draw the elect to salvation as it is in Jesus, and harden the reprobates who remain dead in Adam.

Why preach Calvinism to the non-Elect? They aren't going to join the Elect.

God has elected those sinners he intended to save. They are children of wrath , even as others, until saved by God.

Why preach it to the Elect? God's call to them is irresistible.

We do not know who is elect. The biblical teaching of election is 100% certain, yet God does not tell us WHO they are, so we faithfully preach to all men we have opportunity to witness to.

It always seems to that Calvinists are trying to convince themselves it isn't as theologically hollow as it is.

You can say such things, but any biblical Calvinist will make short work of your positions and expose what in reality is shallow

Calvin wasn't a fool, of course. You can construct a Calvinist theology from the Bible. It's just that the theology is contrary to the very nature of God as Christians understand it,

Not at all. Calvinism describes the biblical God as He is revealed in scripture. To you and other evangelicals it is like Paul in Acts 17 preaching on the unknown God.
You and others have constructed your own deity so when you here of the God of scripture ,it seems false to you.
constructed your own deity so when you here of the God of scripture ,it seems false to you. I would like to think that is not true of you?

contrary to Jesus' message, and reduces the creation to a largely pointless exercise by God.

What a dim view of God and His Dominion

I accept that I can't see things from God's eternal perspective. I accept that God's ways are not my ways, God's thoughts are not my thoughts.

But I have enough respect for myself and my fellow humans that I refuse to accept any doctrine that seems unworthy of any God I can even imagine.

Better to come to terms with the biblical God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't see the correlation. Explain please.

Hello FF,
Very simple.
A non Cal cannot explain the Covenant of Redemption because they would have to own election and predestination.
They cannot explain the Lord Jesus Christ as the True Israel and covenant head of the elect.
They cannot explain the Covenant union of the elect to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Go through 1000 posts on here, you will not see an accurate understanding.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you notice those who despise the doctrines of grace never deal with the Covenants.

And the Covenant is a very vitally important Gospel Truth Peter preached Acts 3:25-26

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Paul alludes to the same Covenant in the Gospel Gal 3:8

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So Gospel Truth is founded upon the Abrahamic Covenant, on what God promised to do for a particular people !

 

[brightfame52]

Do you notice those who despise the doctrines of grace never deal with the Covenants.

Also please understand, those who despise the Doctrines of Grace are despising the Gospel, not just a man name calvin opinion, that's just a camouflage for despising the Truth of the Gospel. Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth[The Gospel] and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not[The Gospel] shall be damned.

When we despise the Gospel its rooted in unbelief !

 

[brightfame52]

Even when the despisers of the Gospel of limited atonement resort to scriptures like 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

They do it out of ignorance because this scripture shows us a whole world viewed in Christ who is its propitiation, and He has rendered to Gods Law and Justice full payment for all their debts, and likewise is the Mediator/Surety of the New Covenant.and consequently God has no wrath for them, but is at peace with them,

This is no less than the whole world of His Covenant People, Gods elect from all nations and from all annals of world history.

 

[Iconoclast]

Also please understand, those who despise the Doctrines of Grace are despising the Gospel, not just a man name calvin opinion, that's just a camouflage for despising the Truth of the Gospel. Mark 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth[The Gospel] and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not[The Gospel] shall be damned.

When we despise the Gospel its rooted in unbelief !

Of course this is true, but those who do this do not seem to be conscious of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Even when the despisers of the Gospel of limited atonement resort to scriptures like 1 Jn 2:2

2 And he[Christ] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

They do it out of ignorance because this scripture shows us a whole world viewed in Christ who is its propitiation, and He has rendered to Gods Law and Justice full payment for all their debts, and likewise is the Mediator/Surety of the New Covenant.and consequently God has no wrath for them, but is at peace with them,

This is no less than the whole world of His Covenant People, Gods elect from all nations and from all annals of world history.

Once they fail to grasp these truths all doctrine gets thrown off, like dominos lined up, but falling down.

 

[Fastfredy0]

A non Cal cannot explain the Covenant of Redemption because they would have to own election and predestination.

Well, per R.C.Sproul (an avid Reformed guy), "the Covenant of Redemption" like the trinity is a man made concept constructed from the Bible which is not to say it isn't true ... but unknown to most. So that is probably why non Cals cannot explain this.

Covenant of Redemption (CR) defined for the curious.
“The Father chooses a bride for His Son.” While the CR is not explicitly stated in Scripture, Scripture does explicitly state the eternal nature of the plan of salvation (Ephesians 1:3-14; 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; James 2:5; 1 Peter 1:2). Moreover, Jesus often referred to His task as carrying out the Father’s will (John 5:3, 43; 6:38-40; 17:4-12). That the salvation of the elect was God’s intention from the very beginning of creation cannot be doubted; the CR just formalizes this eternal plan in the language of covenant. Gotquestions

 

[brightfame52]

Well, per R.C.Sproul (an avid Reformed guy), "the Covenant of Redemption" like the trinity is a man made concept constructed from the Bible which is not to say it isn't true ... but unknown to most. So that is probably why non Cals cannot explain this.

Covenant of Redemption (CR) defined for the curious.
“The Father chooses a bride for His Son.” While the CR is not explicitly stated in Scripture, Scripture does explicitly state the eternal nature of the plan of salvation (Ephesians 1:3-14; 3:11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; James 2:5; 1 Peter 1:2). Moreover, Jesus often referred to His task as carrying out the Father’s will (John 5:3, 43; 6:38-40; 17:4-12). That the salvation of the elect was God’s intention from the very beginning of creation cannot be doubted; the CR just formalizes this eternal plan in the language of covenant. Gotquestions

2 Sam 23:5

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

Isa 49:8

Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Isa 42:6

I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Acts 13:47

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

These scriptures relate covenant with salvation and there are more.

 

[journeyman]

A non Cal cannot explain the Covenant of Redemption because they would have to own election and predestination.

Redemption is only possible by our Lord holding back his anger against sinners. That is what the cross of Christ shows.

Iconoclast, can you acknowledge how by the law, Jesus was sinned against and by law had the right to have people who sinned against him put to death?

They cannot explain the Lord Jesus Christ as the True Israel and covenant head of the elect.
They cannot explain the Covenant union of the elect to the Lord Jesus Christ.
Go through 1000 posts on here, you will not see an accurate understanding.

Actually, it's people who have confused Gods' mercy for Gods' justice that have twisted the scriptures into heresy.

 

[Iconoclast]

Redemption is only possible by our Lord holding back his anger against sinners. That is what the cross of Christ shows.

Iconoclast, can you acknowledge how by the law, Jesus was sinned against and by law had the right to have people who sinned against him put to death?

Actually, it's people who have confused Gods' mercy for Gods' justice that have twisted the scriptures into heresy.

Could you clarify your remarks.
The cross turns away wrath from believers as Jesus takes their place.
What law are you speaking of?
How is God's mercy confused?

 

[brightfame52]

Redemption is only possible by our Lord holding back his anger against sinners. That is what the cross of Christ shows.

Iconoclast, can you acknowledge how by the law, Jesus was sinned against and by law had the right to have people who sinned against him put to death?

Actually, it's people who have confused Gods' mercy for Gods' justice that have twisted the scriptures into heresy.

Redemption is only possible? Where you been? Christ has redeemed His people from the curse of the law Gal 3:13 !

 

[journeyman]

Could you clarify your remarks.

I've been clarifying it all along, but you'll never see the truth unless you admit that our Lord Jesus was being sinned against.

The cross turns away wrath from believers as Jesus takes their place.

No. His cross shows mankind sinning against an innocent man and our Saviors' forebearance in not bringing them into judgement by the law. Example,

False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not. Psa.35:11

What law are you speaking of?

Right here,

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Exo.20:16

if the witness should prove to be false and to have given false testimony against the accused, you must do to him what he had intended to do to the accused. In this way you will purge evil from among you. Deu.19:18-19

How is God's mercy confused?

By ignoring the only reason those sinners weren't put to death is that our Creator being horribly sinned against withheld his wrath against them.

 

[journeyman]

Redemption is only possible? Where you been? Christ has redeemed His people from the curse of the law Gal 3:13 !

And I've told you many times, go and look at the passage Paul cites from Deuteronomy about how Jesus was "made a curse for us."

 

[brightfame52]

And I've told you many times, go and look at the passage Paul cites from Deuteronomy about how Jesus was "made a curse for us."

Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

 

[journeyman]

Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Now go to the place where "it is written." That's where Pauls' meaning becomes clear.

 

[brightfame52]

Now go to the place where "it is written." That's where Pauls' meaning becomes clear.

Dont need to. Gal 3:13 is suffice,

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: