Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

Another passage of scripture that evidences the range of the death of Christ Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Now Christ Sheep and His People are One and the same. Lets look at a Psalm for proof Ps 100:3

3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

And since scripture evidences that some of His Sheep are non jews/gentiles by Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[gentiles] I have, which are not of this[jewish] fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Then its spiritually logical that His People in Matt 1:21 are not all of the jewish fold but also from among the gentile fold. Thats what James meant here Acts 15:14

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

 

[brightfame52]

Equally Scripture teaches…

Romans 11:32 KJV
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Thats all the Sheep

 

[brightfame52]

That could equally be said …’you are not my sheep, because you do not believe.’

Thats also true, because either way one must be a Sheep to believe. Their not believing evidences they are not Sheep.

 

[brightfame52]

180 degrees backwards.


Jesus Christ died for unbelievers, sinners, those who are His enemies.

Those who believe are saved.

Those who do not believe are not saved.

• while we were still sinners, Christ died for us

For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Romans 5:6-10

• …when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son

Jesus did not come to save the already saved!

Jesus did not die on the cross for the already saved!

Jesus didn’t rise from the dead to give eternal life to the already saved!


Jesus Christ was sent by God the Father to die on the cross for the world, so that the world through Him might be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17




This truth will never change, no matter how much you try to redefine what the “world” means.






JLB

The Sheep are unbelieving sinners at first, however they sooner or later will be made believers because they are Sheep and Christ died for them. If a person lives and dies in unbelief, Christ never died for them, they never were Sheep He came to save.

 

[BPPLEE]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

According to this no one should make any effort to accept Jesus as Savior and get saved, it's already been decided. I can just do what I want and whether I go to Heaven or Hell is already decided. I have no free will.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

Bright, I have respect for you but you go too far when say there’s only your understanding of the atonement or there is no Gospel. Make no mistake, “limited atonement”is your understanding, although not yours alone. But it simply isn’t everyone’s in Christendom and those who don’t have that position still have the Gospel.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

According to this no one should make any effort to accept Jesus as Savior and get saved, it's already been decided. I can just do what I want and whether I go to Heaven or Hell is already decided. I have no free will.

I’m pretty sure that’s not what they say but it certainly can be deduced from their statements.

 

[BPPLEE]

The way I understand it it's like if you saw a door that said all who will may enter. It's up to you whether you will go in or not. If you choose to go in you find a table with a placemat with your name on it. On the back of the door it says Ordained before the foundation of time. You have free will. You make the choice to accept or reject Jesus. God is all knowing. He knew what choice you would make. The Bible says whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. That means Jesus died for whosoever.

 

[JLB]

The Sheep are unbelieving sinners at first, however they sooner or later will be made believers because they are Sheep and Christ died for them. If a person lives and dies in unbelief, Christ never died for them, they never were Sheep He came to save.

Fortunatly, we know the truth.

Jesus Christ was sent by God the Father to die on the cross for the world, so that the world through Him might be saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 3:16-17


JLB

 

[crossnote]

I don’t recognize that description as Calvinism. A Calvinist ought to answer but I don’t think this is it. Am I wrong?

It’s a variation of my first question…
The #1 obstacle I have with limited atonement is...
"How can God judge as guilty, those whom he has not predestined to faith in His Son?"

(if the Arminian feels smug in his position, I have equally puzzling questions for them).

at least Brightfame thinks so, otherwise he would have made the objection.

 

[crossnote]

Thats all the Sheep

I get it. Whoever believes are elect sheep.

 

[crossnote]

Thats also true, because either way one must be a Sheep to believe. Their not believing evidences they are not Sheep.

So which came first, believing or being a sheep?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The way I understand it it's like if you saw a door that said all who will may enter. It's up to you whether you will go in or not. If you choose to go in you find a table with a placemat with your name on it. On the back of the door it says Ordained before the foundation of time. You have free will. You make the choice to accept or reject Jesus. God is all knowing. He knew what choice you would make. The Bible says whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. That means Jesus died for whosoever.

The problem is with that is that it all becomes a charade. That it, there really is no free choice. One thinks one has choice but really one doesn’t.

It’s based on assuming an understanding of God’s foreknowledge that we do not have.

 

[crossnote]

The way I understand it it's like if you saw a door that said all who will may enter. It's up to you whether you will go in or not. If you choose to go in you find a table with a placemat with your name on it. On the back of the door it says Ordained before the foundation of time. You have free will. You make the choice to accept or reject Jesus. God is all knowing. He knew what choice you would make. The Bible says whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life. That means Jesus died for whosoever.

Yes, I would also go that far but limited atonement goes further and says, Christ only died for a certain few giving no genuine choice to the one reading the sign on the door.

 

[brightfame52]

According to this no one should make any effort to accept Jesus as Savior and get saved, it's already been decided. I can just do what I want and whether I go to Heaven or Hell is already decided. I have no free will.

I dont know what you talking about, it doesnt appear to have anything to do with what the post stated.

 

[brightfame52]

I get it. Whoever believes are elect sheep.

Sounds like you may be catching on.

 

[brightfame52]

So which came first, believing or being a sheep?

Listen Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You must be a Sheep first in order to believe

 

[BPPLEE]

The problem is with that is that it all becomes a charade. That it, there really is no free choice. One thinks one has choice but really one doesn’t.

It’s based on assuming an understanding of God’s foreknowledge that we do not have.

So you don't have the ability to make your own choices?

 

[BPPLEE]

I dont know what you talking about, it doesnt appear to have anything to do with what the post stated.

I will pray that your eyes may be opened

 

[BPPLEE]

Yes, I would also go that far but limited atonement goes further and says, Christ only died for a certain few giving no genuine choice to the one reading the sign on the door.

I believe that we have a choice. God responds to our choice. If we don't have a choice then why should we try not to sin? Why follow the commandments? We could just do what we want because it's all been pre destined.