Living without sin ?

[JLB]

Yes, as I am now a new creature.
All the old has passed away. (2 Cor 5:17)

Yes, every born again Christian can say this.


Where did you come up with the idea that your physical body was born again at the new birth?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

Yes, every born again Christian can say this.


Where did you come up with the idea that your physical body was born again at the new birth?



JLB

It is written..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)
All of my old self was killed with Christ..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
My old body was destroyed.
I needed a new one, and received it.
One reborn from God's seed.
It is sinless.

 

[Serving Zion]

My old body was destroyed.

Where is it now? Buried?

 

[stovebolts]

You may have thought you were given the gift of the Holy Spirit, but scripture makes me doubt it.

I am glad my faith has matured through the years. I looked up the Elders at the church of Christ and they caused me to doubt. So what ever doubt you have, those are your doubts, not mine. My faith is strong, and is unshakable. Doubt comes from the enemy and even Satan tried to use scripture to cause Jesus to stumble.

Fact is, those (re)born of God's seed cannot commit sin.
Wasn't the sin proof of what is written in 1 John 3:9-10?

That is not a fact, it is your opinion. An opinion that nobody on staff here at CF agrees with. What staff does agree with is your opinion and assertions are dangerous because as you have attempted to put a stumbling block in front of my faith by casting doubt and by doing so, judgment against me; you will be a stumbling block to others and that’s dangerous.

Time to get it right this time with a real, true, permanent "turn from" sin.
It wasn't true or permanent the first time...according to your testimony.

Again, another accusation in judgment in an attempt to cause doubt and shake my faith. My testimony is true, and my life a testimony to the transformative work of God. If I ever see you casting doubt in this way toward another member, especially one young in the faith, I will personally ban you for 30 days. This will be my only warning to you on this. for_his_glory , JLB

Agreed.
But that sin is a manifestation of whom we are really born of...as per 1 John 3:8-10.

I don’t like it when scripture is pitted against scripture. I believe this verse is being taken out of its original context and you are assigning a foreign meaning to it. Let’s look at the following verses.

10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

It’s about practicing righteousness, and this is not self righteousness as indicated by loving ones brother.

Righteousness is bound in grace, not condemnation. It’s about saying, yeah, I messed up, forgive me and help me live a better life. Help me make my wrongs right. God, give me the strength to carry me through.
King David sinned, yet God says David had a heart after Gods own heart. David repented of his sin, Saul did not. Yet even David knew well enough not to cast condemnation against Gods anointed (Saul).

With faith in God, you can be that bold.
Without it, you will never be able to say it.

Here is a true and faithful saying. Know what you know, and know what you don’t know. And don’t let what you don’t know tear you down.

I have brought this up before, yet you denied it. But here is the truth, and I know you don’t like hearing the truth, because you refute it. There is sin we commit in ignorance or because we have been deceived into believing a lie. This was made known to you by way of Adam and Eves sin and it is clearly stated in Leviticus 4, which was also shown to you in another thread.

Practicing righteousness means when those hidden sins are realized, we repent. We do not harden our hearts. If we harden our hearts, our condemnation is justified. When we see sin in others, we apply Gods righteousness toward them and lead them toward repentance, not condemnation.

It is the beginning of a life walked in the Spirit instead of in the now dead flesh.

Yes, agreed. Our baptism is just the beginning. Walking denotes movement toward a destination. One does not walk aimlessly. Jesus used a picture of a path. A way... there is a way of God and a way of man. Our walk begins at our baptism, but we need to go the correct way. It’s a journey, and we call this sanctification.

Nobody can say they are saved till they hear their name read from the book of life.

Again, you cast doubt. This is not from God. Our baptism gives us assurance that we are saved. But this is not a license to sin, or our condemnation is deserved. We must endure in righteousness as we grow and mature, which takes time.
I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. With this, I have no doubt because when I realize my sins, I have a Father who is eager to not only forgive me, but help me stay on the right path... this is the way.

I'ld start with a real, true, permanent repentance from sin, knowing you will never sin again.
The Holy Ghost will not reside in a corrupt temple.

And what do you call real, true repentance? Actually, I would like you to give me an example of what repentance looks like from the Bible which shows or teaches what repentance looks like.

I wish I could write things to sooth your self esteem, but all I can write is how to bring you to where your esteem comes from Christ.

What makes you think I need soothing and what makes you think my esteem doesn’t come from Christ?

My peace comes from the Lord, and Jesus calms the storms that have raged in my life. He brings me peace. My identity is deeply rooted in who I am in Christ and my place in His Kingdom. My faith is unwavering and my trust impeccable. I will not be moved, nor shaken because it is God who gives me strength.

I believe you will understand this, and agree. Faith is actually trusting and putting into action what God has said. This is the way. My faith is strong because Gods word has shown itself as trustworthy. Each day we have decisions to make and we make those decisions based on what we know and what we believe. We do not know everything, nor will we. It is written in Revelation that one day, all our questions will be answered, and all our tears will be wiped away. In part, our sins will be revealed, and I’m talking about the sins that we commit that are not revealed to us in this life, but will be revealed in the life to come, and we will shed tears, but Godcwill wipe them away.

Our God is a good God.

 

[JLB]

Again, another accusation in judgment in an attempt to cause doubt and shake my faith. My testimony is true, and my life a testimony to the transformative work of God. If I ever see you casting doubt in this way toward another member, especially one young in the faith, I will personally ban you for 30 days. This will be my only warning to you on this. @for_his_glory , @JLB

Amen sir.


That is the great danger in this ”sinless perfection” doctrine, which is undermining those who are young in the Lord and impressionable while growing in the faith.



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Amen sir.


That is the great danger in this ”sinless perfection” doctrine, which is undermining those who are young in the Lord and impressionable while growing in the faith.



JLB

Out of all my years on this forum, I have never heard of that doctrine...

One thing I have noticed through the years is this. Many, but not all false doctrines are derived battling against other false doctrines.

For example, when the Apostle John wrote from Patmus Gnosticism was alive and well. In part, John writes to refute Gnosticism but by the second century, they had turned Johns writings toward their own worldview.

Gnosticism teaches salvation by divine wisdom. It’s about “knowing” secret things which in essence, are only revealed to the “elect” if I dare use that word.

While I agree with Hopeful that sin is serious stuff, and we are commanded to walk as Jesus walked, there has to be balance here, and I think the NT writers did a great job balancing who we are in Christ and dealing with our daily struggles which can cause us to sin, either willingly or through our own ignorance.

I think the greatest example of this is Corinth. Their lifestyle in some cases were worse than the pagans surrounding them, yet Paul never created doubt in their faith or questioned their identity in Christ. Paul did not sugar coat their sin. No, he called their sin out that it might spur repentance. But he also affirmed their identity in Christ, and reminded them of who they were in Gods kingdom.

Paul addresses this same topic to Rome. It’s pretty clear, for those who harden their hearts and sin that Gods grace may abound, their condemnation is deserved. In other word, don’t abuse Gods grace. Abuse it long enough, justice will be served, and it won’t be a good thing.

 

[for_his_glory]

Again, another accusation in judgment in an attempt to cause doubt and shake my faith. My testimony is true, and my life a testimony to the transformative work of God. If I ever see you casting doubt in this way toward another member, especially one young in the faith, I will personally ban you for 30 days. This will be my only warning to you on this. @for_his_glory , @JLB

I am in agreement with this. This "sinless perfection" goes against the doctrines of Christ and a stumbling block to those whose faith is yet weak.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

Sinless perfection came from the teachings of John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context and twist it to support their theories and man made doctrines.

This website above explains this massive stumbling block that is place before others that yet have little knowledge and are easily deceived into believing a lie.

 

[Truthfrees]

I think the greatest example of this is Corinth. Their lifestyle in some cases were worse than the pagans surrounding them, yet Paul never created doubt in their faith or questioned their identity in Christ. Paul did not sugar coat their sin. No, he called their sin out that it might spur repentance. But he also affirmed their identity in Christ, and reminded them of who they were in Gods kingdom.

i always took Galatians 4:19 as him saying he was concerned about their state of relationship with God - that perhaps they were not secure yet

i would like to get stovebolts and Hopeful take on this

BTW stovebolts thanks so much for your strong example of how to civilly / peacefully discuss opposing interpretations of scripture - you redeemed this thread imo from the low estate it was falling into of personal attacks against the character of people who posted a different opinion - thank you - i am reading your and Hopeful's posts now on this subject

God bless you

 

[Truthfrees]

Fact is, those (re)born of God's seed cannot commit sin.
Wasn't the sin proof of what is written in 1 John 3:9-10?

when we are impatient or harsh or misjudge people or say the wrong thing is that a sin?

i was being attacked recently by a bully/abusive person and didn't fully cleanse from that negative spirit and ended up saying the wrong thing to an innocent person in a harsh tone

just wondering what all is considered sin?

i was convicted later of how i spoke to the innocent person and apologized

the lesson i learned from that is to have nothing to do with an angry or abusive person lest i pick up on the evil spirit/attitude that motivates them - Proverbs 22:24-25 - 1 Corinthians 15:33

 

[JLB]

when we are impatient or harsh or misjudge people or say the wrong thing is that a sin?

i was being attacked recently by a bully/abusive person and didn't fully cleanse from that negative spirit and ended up saying the wrong thing to an innocent person in a harsh tone

I think blaming others for our behavior is a sign we are carring sin in our heart.

Adam blamed God, and his wife for his actions because he had sinned.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Christ..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom 6:6)
My old body was destroyed.
I needed a new one, and received it.
One reborn from God's seed.
It is sinless.

Again, our spirit is reborn by the Spirit, not our flesh.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Our physical body was not reborn again, as nobody can go back into their mothers womb and be reborn.

We will indeed have new incorruptable bodies when we are resurrected from the dead, which will be immortal.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1 Corinthians 15:53-54


Our bodies are corrupt because of sin.



JLB

 

[JLB]

you redeemed this thread imo from the low estate it was falling into of personal attacks against the character of people who posted a different opinion

Did you reports these attacks against the character of people?


Could you point out some of these attacks against the character of people for us. Which post numbers?


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

I am in agreement with this. This "sinless perfection" goes against the doctrines of Christ and a stumbling block to those whose faith is yet weak.

Romans 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

bcbsr.com/topics/sinless.html

Sinless perfection came from the teachings of John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context and twist it to support their theories and man made doctrines.

This website above explains this massive stumbling block that is place before others that yet have little knowledge and are easily deceived into believing a lie.

That’s sad. There was a lot of division in that whole era and like I was saying to JLB, so many bad doctrines derived from within an apologetic / debate culture.

 

[stovebolts]

i always took Galatians 4:19 as him saying he was concerned about their state of relationship with God - that perhaps they were not secure yet

I think he is, because he states that they know God, then seems to back pedal a bit and qualifies it by saying they are known by God.

I think we all know why Paul is writing to the church in Galatia. There was a zealous sect of Christians that were preaching to be a Christian, you had to follow the Law of Moses, and this sect was winning minds. Paul is teaching them that they are free from the Law of Moses. And I might add that Paul isn’t writing to Galatia because they are living deep in sin like the church in Corinth. He was writing to secure their freedom in Christ.

Paul had to deal with this in Rome too as many Jewish Christians were returning to Rome, and Roman Christians looked at them funny (well, they didn’t really care for them). I believe Paul is writing to Rome reflecting on what occurred in Galatia.

Anyway, hope that helps a little.

 

[for_his_glory]

That’s sad. There was a lot of division in that whole era and like I was saying to JLB, so many bad doctrines derived from within an apologetic / debate culture.

I just can't understand why so many make the word of God so hard to understand when it is plainly written. I've never been to cemetery, oops, seminary schools like all these so called theologians that can't even agree with each other. I might not always get it right, but when I do not the Holy Spirit always sends someone to help correct me hat has more Spiritual knowledge then I do. We must all be teachable, but yet learn how to discern the spirits that teach us, 1John 4:1-6. We might not always agree with each other, but yet it's up to each one of us to seek out truth so we are not deceived by the lies of Satan who works through others unaware.

Many have their traditional handed down the pike theories and doctrines of man who founded Calvinism, Dispensationalism, Fundamentalism and all the ism's that are out there with many of them starting with one man between the 16th through the 18th centuries that has caused so many to become indoctrinated in their theories and logical carnal interpretations of scripture that has placed hugh stumbling blocks to trip up and deceive the mind of those who are yet babes in Christ with little understanding.

A greater apostasy is on us more so as we see the great falling away from truth as Jesus told us to watch out for in the end of days. 2Thessalonians 2:1-5.

 

[Hopeful]

I am glad my faith has matured through the years. I looked up the Elders at the church of Christ and they caused me to doubt. So what ever doubt you have, those are your doubts, not mine. My faith is strong, and is unshakable. Doubt comes from the enemy and even Satan tried to use scripture to cause Jesus to stumble.

I am glad you are better off today than in years past.

That is not a fact, it is your opinion. An opinion that nobody on staff here at CF agrees with. What staff does agree with is your opinion and assertions are dangerous because as you have attempted to put a stumbling block in front of my faith by casting doubt and by doing so, judgment against me; you will be a stumbling block to others and that’s dangerous.

It is a fact. in my life and the lives of those of the church I am of.
Can apple seeds gender onions?
When they can, "my" facts will be shown false.
stovebolt:
Again, another accusation in judgment in an attempt to cause doubt and shake my faith. My testimony is true, and my life a testimony to the transformative work of God. If I ever see you casting doubt in this way toward another member, especially one young in the faith, I will personally ban you for 30 days. This will be my only warning to you on this. for_his_glory , JLB
Ok, and thanks for the warning.
I'll try to word my responses accordingly.

I don’t like it when scripture is pitted against scripture. I believe this verse is being taken out of its original context and you are assigning a foreign meaning to it. Let’s look at the following verses.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.
It’s about practicing righteousness, and this is not self righteousness as indicated by loving ones brother.

My bible (KJV) doesn't have the word "practices" in it.
Grape vines cannot bring forth figs, ever.
Please remember that a seed can only bring forth after itself.

Righteousness is bound in grace, not condemnation. It’s about saying, yeah, I messed up, forgive me and help me live a better life. Help me make my wrongs right. God, give me the strength to carry me through.
King David sinned, yet God says David had a heart after Gods own heart. David repented of his sin, Saul did not. Yet even David knew well enough not to cast condemnation against Gods anointed (Saul).
Here is a true and faithful saying. Know what you know, and know what you don’t know. And don’t let what you don’t know tear you down.
I have brought this up before, yet you denied it. But here is the truth, and I know you don’t like hearing the truth, because you refute it. There is sin we commit in ignorance or because we have been deceived into believing a lie. This was made known to you by way of Adam and Eves sin and it is clearly stated in Leviticus 4, which was also shown to you in another thread.
Practicing righteousness means when those hidden sins are realized, we repent. We do not harden our hearts. If we harden our hearts, our condemnation is justified. When we see sin in others, we apply Gods righteousness toward them and lead them toward repentance, not condemnation.

I'll stick with James' description of what is sin: requiring enticement, temptation, lust, and conception. (James 1:14-15)
How can something be sin if I am not tempted to offend God by it, or to satisfy some now dead lust?

Yes, agreed. Our baptism is just the beginning. Walking denotes movement toward a destination. One does not walk aimlessly. Jesus used a picture of a path. A way... there is a way of God and a way of man. Our walk begins at our baptism, but we need to go the correct way. It’s a journey, and we call this sanctification.

I call it growth in grace and knowledge, as I was sanctified at the application of the Sanctifier's blood at my "immersion" into His death. (Rom 6:3-7)

Again, you cast doubt. This is not from God. Our baptism gives us assurance that we are saved. But this is not a license to sin, or our condemnation is deserved. We must endure in righteousness as we grow and mature, which takes time.
I am saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved. With this, I have no doubt because when I realize my sins, I have a Father who is eager to not only forgive me, but help me stay on the right path... this is the way.

If one is "saved" already, why endure till the end?
As you write, "We must endure till the end".
Those who don't are not saved.

And what do you call real, true repentance? Actually, I would like you to give me an example of what repentance looks like from the Bible which shows or teaches what repentance looks like.

It is a "turn from"...in this case, sin.
Paul's conversion is perhaps the best illustration of repentance, from the sin of tormenting the new church.
After his conversion he didn't torture any more Christians.
As for other biblical examples, perhaps the woman caught in adultery and placed before Jesus by the scribes and Pharisees may be a good example too...When Jesus told her to ":go, and sin no more".
I really can't think of any more sin anyone was charged with to repent of.

What makes you think I need soothing and what makes you think my esteem doesn’t come from Christ?

Just trying to be friendly.

My peace comes from the Lord, and Jesus calms the storms that have raged in my life. He brings me peace. My identity is deeply rooted in who I am in Christ and my place in His Kingdom. My faith is unwavering and my trust impeccable. I will not be moved, nor shaken because it is God who gives me strength.

I believe you will understand this, and agree. Faith is actually trusting and putting into action what God has said. This is the way. My faith is strong because Gods word has shown itself as trustworthy. Each day we have decisions to make and we make those decisions based on what we know and what we believe. We do not know everything, nor will we. It is written in Revelation that one day, all our questions will be answered, and all our tears will be wiped away. In part, our sins will be revealed, and I’m talking about the sins that we commit that are not revealed to us in this life, but will be revealed in the life to come, and we will shed tears, but God will wipe them away.
Our God is a good God.

I do agree.
But doesn't hearing that we can actually obey God all the time also come from God?
Are you not lifted up by the idea that faith can actually pay off with a better life, in God's eyes?
What is the point of "improving" to 85% holiness without imagining 100% success?

Jesus conquered sin, and in Him we can take part in that victory.

 

[Hopeful]

Where is it now? Buried?

It was buried, but it was than raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
It was quickened by the Spirit of God. (Rom 8:11)

 

[Hopeful]

when we are impatient or harsh or misjudge people or say the wrong thing is that a sin?

We?
Wasn't Jesus "harsh" on the scribes and Pharisees?
Our writings should be coming from the Spirit from whom we thrive.

i was being attacked recently by a bully/abusive person and didn't fully cleanse from that negative spirit and ended up saying the wrong thing to an innocent person in a harsh tone
just wondering what all is considered sin?

All unrighteousness is sin.
It is the motivation of a comment that determines what is sin.
Loving things hurt people sometimes.
Didn't the Sadducees accuse Jesus of sin for His speaking?

i was convicted later of how i spoke to the innocent person and apologized
the lesson i learned from that is to have nothing to do with an angry or abusive person lest i pick up on the evil spirit/attitude that motivates them - Proverbs 22:24-25 - 1 Corinthians 15:33

Amen to that.
We grow in grace an knowledge everyday.
The subject of obedience to God is serious, and draws out both the best and worst of people.

Live free.

 

[Hopeful]

Again, our spirit is reborn by the Spirit, not our flesh.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Our physical body was not reborn again, as nobody can go back into their mothers womb and be reborn.

We will indeed have new incorruptable bodies when we are resurrected from the dead, which will be immortal.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1 Corinthians 15:53-54


Our bodies are corrupt because of sin.
JLB

Hence the need for rebirth.
Do you really think that the new creature, reborn of God's seed, Spirit, is going to be as bad as the one born of water?

 

[JLB]

Hence the need for rebirth.

Yes our spirit is reborn by the Spirit.

No doubt.


Our body on the other hand is not reborn as it takes flesh to give birth to flesh.

If the scripture said that the Spirit gives birth to flesh, then I would definitely be in agreement with you.


But since it doesn’t then no student of the word will ever agree that the Spirit gives birth to a new born again fleshly body.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

again

• if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin

And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:10:13

• For if you live according to the flesh you will die;
• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Please be reasonable and allow these verses to renew your mind.


Our body is not born again by the Spirit.


Our flesh is not born of the Spirit.



JLB