Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[glorydaz]

I certainly don't mean anyone any offense as I say this but I see the belief that one can lose their salvation in the same basket as the problem the Pharisees had when they thought they could be justified by their works of the law. I see this as a dangerous doctrine as it treads a very fine line between a works based gospel.

Your entire post was right on, but this part really bears repeating.

Who would have an interest in having man think his salvation rests on his own shoulders?

It's a slander to the work of the cross.

 

[Mysteryman]

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1Pe 1:14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:
1Pe 1:15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;
1Pe 1:16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.


No holiness = no salvation

We are holy, because our seed of Christ in us can not sin !

IN Christ - MM

 

[glorydaz]

Jas 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, even so faith apart from works is dead.

The man "as pertaining to the flesh" worketh for glory...but not before God.

IF man is justified by works....but he isn't.
To him that worketh not but believes in Christ comes justification.
Our faith is counted for righteousness...not our works.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

NOT OF WORKS....but it is ordained we should walk in them.

Quite clearly, our works do not save us. They are a natural consequence of being born again a new creature. Why keep putting the cart before the horse? Are we to boast?

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[glorydaz]

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

You continue to lump believers in with unbelievers, if you're claiming this verse supports a person's need for obedience in order to be saved. I can only presume that's what you're doing.

Those born of the Spirit have already yielded themselves as servants to the Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If the Spirit of God dwells in you...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit.
If not...you are none of His.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[glorydaz]

Act 5:32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

This speaks to losing one's salvation?

Not a chance. The Holy Spirit is given when we are born again.
I don't think anyone has said we don't have to obey the command to repent and believe before being saved. It's this adding obedience on as a means of being saved or remaining saved that is in dispute.
We obey when we believe and repent and then the Holy Spirit is given.

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[AVBunyan]

Any "lose-its" care to try and explain these verses?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

And...Please don't tell me if one grieves the Spirit they lose it!

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Whose faith am I living by? Not mine!

Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Would you like to explain how I can get kicked out of his boy which is in heaven and whom I am a member of?

It is either Christ alone or you.
If it is 99% Christ plus your 1% good works you will still end up in hell.

How much works does it take - where is the line drawn?
At what point do you lose it - how much does it take? How would you know if you lost it?
Do you keep all his commandments all the time?

You guys just do not think.

You run to verses prior to Calvary where the law is still in effect.
You use verses that have nothing to do with justification and you can't even define what justification is.
You see the words obey and works and immediately tie them to justification.
You are clueless as to the "uniqueness" of the mystery of the body of Christ - it is still a mystery to you - hidden.

 

[destiny]

So far, after reading the osas posts here.. no one has of yet even comprehended where I stand with Jesus or anything I or others have posted. I'm thinking there could also be the fruit of Calvinism at work in this thread, this means there are probably some who don't think they even have a will to be responsible for. Is that right?

If you could be farther off base, I'm not sure you'd even be in the ballpark.

I submit you haven't yet read what we've written. Your mind is made up and the scriptures we give you don't get past your human understanding. You'll never understand if you don't let the Spirit open your eyes to what's being said. Do you read the verses we submit or just skim them?

I certainly believe in man's free will...he can reject the promises and stand on the warnings until he lives in fear all the days of his life. He can trust in himself or trust in the Lord. It's that simple.

It is ordained that the true children of God will show forth the fruit of the Spirit. Those who walk in disobedience are children of the devil. Those who love the Lord have been filled with the love of God and no longer walk after the flesh. We are new creatures....don't confuse those who "profess" with those who have been born again. For some reason, you insist on doing that.

Well thank God you aren't one of those ist's!
I am seeing and understanding a lot of what you and AV believe, but the thing that seems to be missing in your posts is your own personal responsibility in walking out a living relationship with Jesus; This is all tied into working out your own salvation in fear and trembling. Why does scripture say "in fear and trembling"?

 

[jasoncran]

because if we love christ we will want to please the God we serve.

and avoid the pitfalls of sin and its consequences on the earth for the saint and the reward that he or she will get at the bema seat.

 

[Drew]

Good works are important after salvation but the good works add nothing to one's position.

I do not see how such a position can be sustained in light of what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7 where he says that eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. He then reformulates the very same statement 2 more times in the succeeding verses. And he makes a similar argument in 2 Corinthians 5. Not to mention Romans 8, where it is clear that "walking in the way of the Spirit" leads to life.

I see no wiggle room - Paul clearly connects the granting of eternal life to how one has lived one's life.

And lest anyone think I am embracing the position that one can "work one's way to salvation", Paul is equally clear that it is the Holy Spirit that is the engine, or force, that generates the good works that lead to life.

 

[jasoncran]

drew you just what av11 said, works is the evidence of salvation!!not the means which you get it or keep it.

sometimes we drift, if we drift then we sin and if we sin knowing that we shouldnt willfully sin, then we cant be forgiven. their are no sacrifices for willful sin if you take that verse to pertain unto salvation when its talking about those who taste the Lord but never repent.

 

[glorydaz]

I have to wonder if people realize what happens when we're born again. This talk of being a "new creature"....and having a "circumcised heart" is very important to this subject. God commands all men everywhere to repent. When we do, we put off our "stiff-necks" and look upon the Lord. This is why we hear the Lord saying, "Why do you resist?" ...their neck is too stiff to repent.

We first must turn and look unto Jesus.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

We need to have our heart circumcised because of the rebellion that resides in the heart of man.

For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death?

When we turn to the Lord and believe.....

He puts His love into our heart...cuts away our desire to rebel.

And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

When I hear Christians saying we can lose our salvation, I'm dismayed at the idea that they think God is not able to keep those who are His. He gives us a new heart that desires Him, we're new creatures....so where do all these disobedient one comes from? It would be better to ask them if they still have the same old desires they've always had or if they have been changed, and realize not everyone who claims to be a believer is one...instead of drumming up this idea the true believer can lose his salvation. That's walking by sight not by faith...."I see Christians fall away"....No, you see those who have never received a new heart continuing on their merry way of walking after the flesh.

 

[Drew]

drew you just what av11 said, works is the evidence of salvation!!not the means which you get it or keep it.

No jason, that is not what I said. I wrote what I wrote and meant it - Paul says our ulitmate salvation is based on good works.

I am pretty sure that this is not what av is saying.

 

[jasoncran]

so then we can loose it? then and cant get it back! then i'm not saved for i have sinned willfully.

it all sin after repentance for the most part willful?

think about it, you know not to lie or steal or whatever you are told is sin,

you sin anyway. you can repent all you want there's no forgiveness see hebrew 10:26

 

[glorydaz]

Well thank God you aren't one of those ist's!
I am seeing and understanding a lot of what you and AV believe, but the thing that seems to be missing in your posts is your own personal responsibility in walking out a living relationship with Jesus; This is all tied into working out your own salvation in fear and trembling. Why does scripture say "in fear and trembling"?

One reason it says fear and trembling, if we're saved, is because when we disobey we get taken to the woodshed. I don't know about you, but I have been chastened by the Lord and it is not pleasant.

Fear and trembling is not always a bad thing...it's only the wicked that don't fear God.

And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord. Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Psalm 2:11....Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

Psalm 19:9.....The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.

Psalm 25:12....What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

Psalm 25:14....The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Psalm 33:18....Behold, the eye of the LORD is upon them that fear him, upon them that hope in his mercy;

Psalm 34:9....O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psalm 34:11....Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD.

Psalm 86:11....Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

Personally, I think the passage in Phil. is the same as this one...stay in the Word and make sure you're truly saved.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Paul didn't want any of them to just hear the gospel message, he wanted them all to go on to be born again of the Spirit. He was leaving and he was exhorting them to remember it is God that works through them to will and to do His good pleasure....to trust in Him and press on. It takes a while for some people to move on from hearing the Word to actually being born again. Paul didn't want his preaching to have been in vain.

"but the thing that seems to be missing in your posts is your own personal responsibility in walking out a living relationship with Jesus;"

Oh yes.....I thought I had addressed this concern already.

How do you "walk out" a living relationship with Jesus?

Would you like a written document on my personal relationship with the Lord?
He keeps me...I don't keep myself. I can assure you, I have a relationship with Jesus....it's been wonderful, dynamic, and on-going for over 40 years. Believe it or not, I rest in the shelter of His arms and go when He says go and stop when He says stop. I read the Word and pray and all that good stuff. I also know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I will never ever lose my salvation. The Lord has given me a heart to follow Him. He is my shephard, and I follow Him wherever He leads. I hope this will ease you mind in regards to my walk, but I'm no different than any other born again believer. We are all members of the same body and not one will be chopped off.

 

[glorydaz]

Good works are important after salvation but the good works add nothing to one's position.

I do not see how such a position can be sustained in light of what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7 where he says that eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. He then reformulates the very same statement 2 more times in the succeeding verses. And he makes a similar argument in 2 Corinthians 5. Not to mention Romans 8, where it is clear that "walking in the way of the Spirit" leads to life.

I see no wiggle room - Paul clearly connects the granting of eternal life to how one has lived one's life.

And lest anyone think I am embracing the position that one can "work one's way to salvation", Paul is equally clear that it is the Holy Spirit that is the engine, or force, that generates the good works that lead to life.

Drew, you persist in misunderstanding Romans. Do we really need to go through this again? This is the entire message of salvation...the Roman Road. He begins by saying man is without excuse. Those who "seek after" power, glory, and eternal life will be judged on their deeds. Then he goes on to explain that since all men sin, they must be justified by faith.

IF Abraham were justified by works...he has something to glory over...BUT not before God. His good works do not justify him. Why? Because no matter how many good deeds a person does or how much they persist in doing good deeds they still sin. Good deeds do not take away sin...only Jesus' work on the cross does that. Justified by faith...not a multitude of good deeds.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[MarkT]

Branches will be broken off. Don't be deceived. The word of God is like water to a tree. The delight in riches chokes off the word - the tree doesn't get water, the branch withers. It is broken off and tossed into the fire. Don't think just because the branch has sprung forth that it can not wither and die. Even the elect, especially the elect are chasened.

 

[glorydaz]

drew you just what av11 said, works is the evidence of salvation!!not the means which you get it or keep it.

sometimes we drift, if we drift then we sin and if we sin knowing that we shouldnt willfully sin, then we cant be forgiven. their are no sacrifices for willful sin if you take that verse to pertain unto salvation when its talking about those who taste the Lord but never repent.

Amen..There is only one unforgivable sin...willful sin is not it.
If someone hears the gospel and rejects it, they had better be fearfully looking toward judgment.

This is referring to a rejection of the one sacrifice for sin (Jesus Christ).
It has nothing to do with losing one's salvation.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

 

[glorydaz]

Branches will be broken off. Don't be deceived. The word of God is like water to a tree. The delight in riches chokes off the word - the tree doesn't get water, the branch withers. It is broken off and tossed into the fire. Don't think just because the branch has sprung forth that it can not wither and die. Even the elect, especially the elect are chasened.

The elect are chastened...we sons of God.
That has nothing to do with losing one's salvation.

You're speaking of those who hear the Word of God but do not draw sustenance from the vine. They have not been born again...they spring up in rocky soil...they do not have the Holy Spirit so bear no fruit.

 

[Cornelius]

In reality it is simple to understand. The key to understanding is locked up in these words:

Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruit worthy of repentance:
Mat 3:9 and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Its the fruit of repentance that shows if somebody is in fact saved or not. Notice that in this verse they are warned not to claim Abraham as the reason that they are God's children.Its the same for Christians who claim that they can be God's children by just "believing in Jesus" as if the belief in a historical figure and actually produce salvation.

When this belief in Jesus does not have obedience to the Word as a result, it does not lead to salvation. Salvation is not a line that you step over, its a process that lasts your whole lifetime.

A person who is getting saved, will also be in the process of overcoming. Overcoming sin and sickness and the rest of the curse.

So overcoming is a fruit of repentance. If there is no overcoming, then there has been no repentance. No repentance means that person is not on their way to salvation. Surely that is easy enough to understand .That is why these verses (in my next post) are so important to read and understand. These verses describes our ultimate destination. There are only two groups of people: 1) overcomers 2) those who do not overcome.

Overcoming first happens through faith, but faith will bring the manifestation. God, through His grace will help you to overcome if indeed you have faith that He is able to do so, and in fact has done so 2000 years ago. He is our strength. Its important to realize that its our faith (in the promises) that makes us overcome : 1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.

Here is where you start your journey to overcome :1Jn 5:5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? You cannot overcome anything if you do not believe this.

Then you must find the promises that helps you to overcome :2Pe 1:4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, (overcoming) having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.

 

[glorydaz]

drew you just what av11 said, works is the evidence of salvation!!not the means which you get it or keep it.

No jason, that is not what I said. I wrote what I wrote and meant it - Paul says our ulitmate salvation is based on good works.

I am pretty sure that this is not what av is saying.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;