Lose Your Salvation in Two Easy Steps

[francisdesales]

Where does Jesus speak of loss of rewards? I asked you this before, but got nothing of note.

EVERY parable concerned with our eternal fate mentions two fates. Either a person is going to enjoy the Banquet in Heaven, or they will be cast out into the night. If you want to call being cast out into the night a "reward", that's quite an interesting spin... Note Matthew 25 and THEIR fate, and they didn't even do what we might consider to be evil. Either eternal damnation or eternal life. Nothing about "lesser rewards"...

Hi

I Corinth. 3:8

I Corinth. 3:14

I Corinth. 9:16 & 17

2 John 8

Suffer loss

I Corinth. 3:15

Galatians 6:9

None of these cite Jesus Christ, thanks...

But just the same...

1 Cor 3 "Every man shall receive a reward, dependent upon what he does" is not speaking about eternal salvation/damnation... it speaks about one's OWN labor. Clearly, salvific actions depend NOT upon our OWN labor...

1 Cor 9 ENDS with Paul saying he'll be disqualified if he doesn't preach the gospel.

Being disqualified does NOT equal "lesser rewards". Sort of like saying being cast out into the night is the receiving of a lesser reward...

2 John 8 speaks about the "full reward" does not imply that a lesser reward awaits us in heaven if we choose NOT to follow the advice of John. Read 2 John 9. If you transgress the commandments, you don't have God. Nothing about "only a bit of God" or "lesser reward" on that one... He that abides in Christ has God, he who doesn't abide in Christ does not. No "lesser abiding" here.

Gal 6:9, I don't see any mention about lesser or greater rewards... If we continue in Christ, we will reap the reward of eternal life.

Nothing "lesser" about eternal life.

Being denied eternal life is not a "lesser reward"...

 

[glorydaz]

Here are 7 statements that apparently support unconditional salvation...


Proof #1 Man has no natural desire or ability to obey or please God for salvation.


False. There would be no religions if this were so. It is the other way round. Men are constantly trying to be justified before God.


Proof #2 God expressly denies man's will or works in obtaining salvation.

False. We are to choose life. Behold I set before you life and death... Zacchaeus gave back what he had stole...plus interest! This was a saving act on his part. Behold..salvation has come. The thief on the cross asked to be remembered. He was promised life. We are to ask seek knock watch and pray.

Proof #3 Faith and works are results of salvation, not conditions or means for it.

False. It is not..."save and you will believe." More backwards theology. It is..."believe and you will be saved!" Believing is the work...salvation the result. We are to ask seek knock watch and pray.

Proof #4 Jesus Christ saves sinners by Himself without any human cooperation.

False. Unless a man pick up his cross daily, he cannot be his disciple. Man must surrender and repent...always.

Proof #5 The gospel and its ordinances were never intended to give eternal life.

This makes no sense...although nothing by this poster does.

Proof #6 The Bible gives examples of sinners saved without any conditions.

False. The opposite is true as usual. A person receives grace when the conditions are met..ie repentance, faith, prayer etc...

Proof #7 Unconditional salvation is the only doctrine giving God all the glory.

False. this is human reasoning. This saddles God with the responsibilty for us sinning. We are not proving God's righteousness by our unrighteousness. I don't need to weigh 500 pounds to make an athlete look fit. God doesn't need our help to prove He is righteous and holy. So there is no danger in us doing what is right before Him. He is not threatened by this! He is glorified when we obey...not disobey.

Have you really been reading anything that's been said in this thread, or do you always listen with half and ear? You've certainly put your own spin on the arguments presented...I'll give you that. :biglaugh

 

[Adullam]

Here are 7 statements that apparently support unconditional salvation...


Proof #1 Man has no natural desire or ability to obey or please God for salvation.


False. There would be no religions if this were so. It is the other way round. Men are constantly trying to be justified before God.


Proof #2 God expressly denies man's will or works in obtaining salvation.

False. We are to choose life. Behold I set before you life and death... Zacchaeus gave back what he had stole...plus interest! This was a saving act on his part. Behold..salvation has come. The thief on the cross asked to be remembered. He was promised life. We are to ask seek knock watch and pray.

Proof #3 Faith and works are results of salvation, not conditions or means for it.

False. It is not..."save and you will believe." More backwards theology. It is..."believe and you will be saved!" Believing is the work...salvation the result. We are to ask seek knock watch and pray.

Proof #4 Jesus Christ saves sinners by Himself without any human cooperation.

False. Unless a man pick up his cross daily, he cannot be his disciple. Man must surrender and repent...always.

Proof #5 The gospel and its ordinances were never intended to give eternal life.

This makes no sense...although nothing by this poster does.

Proof #6 The Bible gives examples of sinners saved without any conditions.

False. The opposite is true as usual. A person receives grace when the conditions are met..ie repentance, faith, prayer etc...

Proof #7 Unconditional salvation is the only doctrine giving God all the glory.

False. this is human reasoning. This saddles God with the responsibilty for us sinning. We are not proving God's righteousness by our unrighteousness. I don't need to weigh 500 pounds to make an athlete look fit. God doesn't need our help to prove He is righteous and holy. So there is no danger in us doing what is right before Him. He is not threatened by this! He is glorified when we obey...not disobey.

Have you really been reading anything that's been said in this thread, or do you always listen with half and ear? You've certainly put your own spin on the arguments presented...I'll give you that. :biglaugh

I'm trying to stop the spin. I took these "proofs" from a website that promotes unconditional salvation. Try reading the word with both eyes and you will see that salvation is very conditional. :yes

 

[Adullam]

[quote="Mysteryman"

Hi A.

One easy step towards procrastination, is that God does not change, and man does not change either.

One easy step towards hypocrisy, is that God does not change, and man says he has changed , when he actually has not.[/quote]


Behold, all things remain as they are! So it is with many who read the words...[/quote]

HI

Righteousness of God is not the righteousness of man

Exactly! My neighbours lawnmower is not mine either...it is his!

Nor can man make himself righteous by anything that he does.

No one can make himself righteous. One can BE righteous by focusing on loving his neighbour though. Do you still think that loving one's neighbour is sinful?

Titus 3:5 - "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneratin, and renewing of the Holy Spirit"

We cannot aspire to holiness and justification by our own efforts. Neither can we claim that our own faith makes us righteous. Faith is a work of righteousness.

Titus 3:6 - "Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour"

context verses 7 - 15.[/quote]

 

[glorydaz]

Personally speaking, the sins that make up my personal "Achilles heel", not unlike yours, are not small ones that God turns a blind eye at. However He has promised us freedon from these vices. I have found as that His promises are meant for even the most wretched...and they work. This faith of who we are in Christ is what constitutes our shield spoken of in Ephesians 6, "wherewith we shall quench ALL the fiery darts of the wicked one".

Then I'm presuming you believe if you die before you're perfected, you're lost and will spend eternity gnashing your teeth. What if you step out your door tomorrow and a truck hits you? Or you die in your sleep. Or is it just others that won't be kept by the power of God?

A person in grade 3 is not expected to pass a grade 9 exam. At least not until he is in grade 9. Do you understand the logic, here? We all expect to graduate high school. A person who believes they already have a high school diploma while still in kindergarden is...well.... very welcome at church!!! Flunkies and dropouts are the norm now....why go to school if you already have the diploma????

To whom much is given, much is required.

I have no idea what you're saying here. The topic is whether one can lose his salvation.

The law is the schoolmaster....those who think they can work to be saved or work to stay saved is a very dangerous doctrine called Lordship Salvation.

I see a bunch of people just like the Jews...going about to establish their own righteousness.

For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

The children of God no longer need a schoolmaster...

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Neither silver and gold nor vain conversation will redeem the sinner...it's the BLOOD.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

It's the blood through which we obtain eternal redemption.

Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

It's the blood from beginning to end...

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

 

[Adullam]

We have established our own righteousness through our own belief.

Be saved and thou shalt believe! :crazy

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Adullam: "I'm trying to stop the spin. I took this "proofs" from a website that promotes unconditional salvation. Try reading the word with both eyes and you will see that salvation is very conditional."

Hi A.

Of course salvation is conditional. But you have taken the condition way too far ! In fact you have taken it way off the charts !

If one of the sheep can be lost then why did Jesus say > John 10:11 - The good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep -- and how about this >

John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"

John 10:28 - "And I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"

John 10:29 - "My Father , which gave them me, is greater than all ; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"

Now Adullam, if you think that someone can pluck the sheep out of the hand of the Father, that gave the sheep to Jesus . You have some serious issues with the scriptures ! You Cornelius and watchman , I might add.

Isn't it time for you and Cornelius and watchman to believe what the scriptures tell us, instead of all this man made theology that you all are presenting ?

Its your choice of course. God has not taken away free will the last I looked.

Bless - MM

 

[Adullam]

Be saved and ye shall repent!

 

[Mysteryman]

Be saved and ye shall repent!

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

 

[Adullam]

Quote Adullam: "I'm trying to stop the spin. I took this "proofs" from a website that promotes unconditional salvation. Try reading the word with both eyes and you will see that salvation is very conditional."

Hi A.

Of course salvation is conditional. But you have taken the condition way too far ! In fact you have taken it way off the charts !

If one of the sheep can be lost then why did Jesus say > John 10:11 - The good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep -- and how about this >

John 10:27 - "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"

John 10:28 - "And I give unto them eternal life ; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"

John 10:29 - "My Father , which gave them me, is greater than all ; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"

Now Adullam, if you think that someone can pluck the sheep out of the hand of the Father, that gave the sheep to Jesus . You have some serious issues with the scriptures ! You Cornelius and watchman , I might add.

Isn't it time for you and Cornelius and watchman to believe what the scriptures tell us, instead of all this man made theology that you all are presenting ?

Its your choice of course. God has not taken away free will the last I looked.

Bless - MM

The problem is that we place ourselves favourably into the story. It is a psychological phenomenon of self-delusion common to they who live in their own interpretations. Every way of a man seems right in his own eyes. If I read little red riding hood I would not want to be the big bad wolf in the story. It is a common delusion to identify with the hero in a given story. People read that it was no longer Paul that lived in himself..or that he was seated in heavenly places, and we gladly claim that they are just like that. See, easy!!!! (OK minus the authority, persecution, experiences etc etc....)

So if the brave do not flinch when danger comes, dare I identify with the brave when I turn tail and run? Of course I can HOPE that I remain steadfast. I can HOPE that I will be brave.

So it is with the living hope.

We think we are as great as anyone! We trust in our own beliefs. This is common.

But where are the sheep that follow His voice? Where is the true faithful? Where is faith? (I mean besides all the facile show of hands of they who imagine great things for themselves)

 

[Adullam]

Be saved and ye shall repent!

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

Repent not, and you will be saved anyway! It is unconditional!!! :eyebrow

 

[Mysteryman]

Be saved and ye shall repent!

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

Repent not, and you will be saved anyway! It is unconditional!!! :eyebrow

No, our salvation was conditional upon two things. 1. Jesus had to lay down his life for the sheep. 2. God chose us as one of the sheep

After our salvation which is without repentance, which is a gift btw. Has condtions, but those conditions are only based upon our rewards and that we can loose our rewards. WE can not loose our salvation !

Saved by grace and not by works !

 

[Adullam]

Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
And five of them were wise, and five were foolish
They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

 

[destiny]

Me thinks Jesus is for those who want a changed new life.. otherwise, stay in the world where you belong and stop fooling yourself and others.

 

[Adullam]

Those who have actualy walked in the Spirit know that it also takes many years of character building discipleship to be able to remain there. It is difficult to abide always. It is a narrow way. Those who just recite dogma and have no actual spiritual experience of overcoming sin, the world and the devil will keep claiming bible passages vicariously.

 

[destiny]

Those who have actualy walked in the Spirit know that it also takes many years of character building discipleship to be able to remain there. It is difficult to abide always. It is a narrow way. Those who just recite dogma and have no actual spiritual experience of overcoming sin, the world and the devil will keep claiming bible passages vicariously.

Yes.. I was just thinking how the supernatural born again experience has been reduced to a doctrine of recited isolated bible verses, and then the person will admit they are still living sinfully and add that Jesus overcame sin for them so they could remain the same. This is pure error with no understanding of what Grace truly is. It is a narrow way and it is a daily choice for me in knowing I have nothing back there to go back to except the hog pen of the world and probable self destruction. I was never one who could be in between, but this isn't to say that it isn't hard at times. When we find it hard to run or walk, we crawl.

 

[glorydaz]

Be saved and ye shall repent!

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance"

Repent not, and you will be saved anyway! It is unconditional!!! :eyebrow

This thread is getting almost too ridiculous for words.

No on has said there isn't a need to repent. :nag

 

[glorydaz]

Those who have actualy walked in the Spirit know that it also takes many years of character building discipleship to be able to remain there. It is difficult to abide always. It is a narrow way. Those who just recite dogma and have no actual spiritual experience of overcoming sin, the world and the devil will keep claiming bible passages vicariously.

Yes.. I was just thinking how the supernatural born again experience has been reduced to a doctrine of recited isolated bible verses, and then the person will admit they are still living sinfully and add that Jesus overcame sin for them so they could remain the same. This is pure error with no understanding of what Grace truly is. It is a narrow way and it is a daily choice for me in knowing I have nothing back there to go back to except the hog pen of the world and probable self destruction. I was never one who could be in between, but this isn't to say that it isn't hard at times. When we find it hard to run or walk, we crawl.

It's always the other guy with the problem, isn't it? :yes
It's always the other guy who will say Jesus overcame sin just so they could keep sinning.
Forget the fact that we are overcomers because Jesus overcame for us.
Forget the fact that it's the power of God that saves and keeps us.

"Those who have actually walked" and "years of character building discipleship to be able to remain there," "isolated bible verses", "no understanding of what God's grace is." You guys crack me up.

Naturally those who trust in God's power to save and keep, are way below you. ROFL :biglaugh

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[Drew]

Drew, you persist in misunderstanding Romans.

No, it is you who do not understand Romans, or at least the parts relevant to the matter at issue

Do we really need to go through this again?

Apparently we do.

This is the entire message of salvation...the Roman Road. He begins by saying man is without excuse. Those who "seek after" power, glory, and eternal life will be judged on their deeds. Then he goes on to explain that since all men sin, they must be justified by faith.

No, this is not what Paul says. He says what he says. Why are you denying it?

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

What am I saying?: that Paul means exactly what he says above - that God will give eternal life to those who do persist in doing good.

Your argument fails on at least two levels. First, why would Paul say something that men can be saved by good works - as he clearly does here - if he actually believes that this is impossible. This is what you are asking us to believe.

Second, the fact that all men have sinned does not mean that people cannot be savd by good works. You simply assume that "the all have sinned" means "all have sinned and even after they are given the Holy Spirit, they will continue to be enslaved to sin.

This is clearly not the case - as Romans 8 shows, those who have the Spirit are enabled to escape from the grip of the sin nature.

 

[Drew]

IF Abraham were justified by works...he has something to glory over...BUT not before God. His good works do not justify him.

The "works" here that did not save Abraham are clearly not "good works". If Paul is saying that Abraham is not saved by good works, he would be contradicting what he has said in Romans 2.

What has Paul written in Romans 2?:

Again, it is this:

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The "works" that Paul is referring to in Romans 4:2 are the works of the Law of Moses - it is these works, and not "good works" - that do not save.

Context shows this. Let's look at 4:2 in context:

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.

Paul is talking about the inefficacy of the Law of Moses in bringing about justification.
He is not denying the very thing that he has just written in Romans 2 – that people will be given eternal life based on good works.