Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[agua.]

Here's an interesting perspective concerning the message taught from the Israelite who fell in the wilderness from Bob Hoekstra that I like.

"Unlike Joshua and Caleb, the other Israelites followed the Lord's calling out from Egypt, but they did not follow Him into the land. Many Christians repeat this same error today. They have followed the Lord as He led them out of the spiritual death of sin and guilt. They are "out of Egypt." They are forgiven of their sins. They have new life in Christ. However, they do not follow the Lord on "into the land." They do not follow by faith into abundance of life. They do not follow the Lord in humble dependence for transformation, for fruitfulness, for a life of spiritual victory."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/devotionals/dbdbg/view.cfm?Date=0830

 

[Butch5]

I disagree. Yahweh chooses.

But you didn't supply Scripture to show it.

Yes Joshua takes the younger generation of Israelite into the promised land. This was the rest from their physical enemies Yahweh promised

.

That's not what I asked. Are you intentionally avoiding my question? Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God, he wrote that to his readers and said that some must enter in. My question was, is Paul telling his readers that Joshua, the man who followed Moses if going to take them into the Promised Land?





[quote[ Oh ok. You suggest this instruction from Paul was solely for the one man who was sleeping with his Fathers wife. Interesting. Why did Paul tell them to turn this particular man over to satan ?[/quote]

Did he say to do it to anyone else?

Let's examine who this "not all" are because you re suggesting Moses ( and possibly Aaron ) weren't punished in like manner as every other Israelite that didn't cross the Jordan and enter the Promised Land.


Heb 3:17 KJV But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?


Did Moses and Aaron sin in the wilderness ? Yes they did.


Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.


Did Moses and Aaron die in the wilderness ? Yes they did.


Who were the only adult Israelite that left Egypt to wholly follow Yahweh ( believe ) and not die in the wilderness ? Joshua and Caleb.


Num 32:11-12 KJV Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: (12) Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.


So we can see that Moses and Aaron died in the wilderness along with every other adult Israelite that left Egypt because they had not wholly followed Yahweh. Why do you give preference to them and allow them salvation when your doctrine insists they're headed for the LoF ? My straw man seem to be made of stone

It's funny you keep saying my theology or my doctrine yet you're the one bringing up all of this stuff. Your argument is a straw man, because, for one thing, I never said anything about the Lake of Fire, or Moses, or Aaron. All I said was 'those who fell in the wilderness', just as Paul said. Actually, if you'll go back and look at what I said, I didn't even bring up this passage to argue against OSAS or PoS. The passage was quoted to explain how many misunderstand the word belief. So, you took my statement out of context.

You seem to think I give special treatment to Moses and Aaron, I could likewise ask why do you have them going to the Lake of Fire (as you put it) with those who fell in the wilderness?

 

[Butch5]

As shown above Moses and Aaron were in the group to fall in the wilderness.

They may be in your group but they weren't in Paul's

Yeah that's right. Joshua took the Israelite into the land to receive the promised rest from their physical enemies.

Jos 23:1 KJV And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

This wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future.

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hebrews 4:8 is speaking of Joshua not Jesus. The "he" in that verse that spoke of another day was David, he lived before Jesus.

 

[agua.]

But you didn't supply Scripture to show it.

Neither did you I thought we were trading opinions :biggrin

.

That's not what I asked. Are you intentionally avoiding my question? Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God, he wrote that to his readers and said that some must enter in. My question was, is Paul telling his readers that Joshua, the man who followed Moses if going to take them into the Promised Land?

Paul was telling us that Joshua took the Israelite into the Promised Land ( across the Jordan ) to receive rest from their physical enemies. Are you suggesting when the Israelite crossed the Jordan this was equivalent to the rest Jesus will give them at the resurrection ? Oh I noticed I haven't really answered your question I think.

"is Paul telling his readers that Joshua, the man who followed Moses if going to take them into the Promised Land?" Let me reread the passage again.

Firstly which particular scripture are you referring to ? I'll take a guess and suggest Paul told us Joshua took the Israelite into the Promised Land when they crossed the Jordan but tells us this wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future. ( does that answer your question? )

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Did he say to do it to anyone else?

Your Honour permission to treat the witness as hostile :biggrin Never mind I withdraw the question Butch is avoiding it because it hinders his doctrine.

It's funny you keep saying my theology or my doctrine yet you're the one bringing up all of this stuff. Your argument is a straw man, because, for one thing, I never said anything about the Lake of Fire, or Moses, or Aaron. All I said was 'those who fell in the wilderness', just as Paul said. Actually, if you'll go back and look at what I said, I didn't even bring up this passage to argue against OSAS or PoS. The passage was quoted to explain how many misunderstand the word belief. So, you took my statement out of context.

You seem to think I give special treatment to Moses and Aaron, I could likewise ask why do you have them going to the Lake of Fire (as you put it) with those who fell in the wilderness?

Ok maybe we should clear this up step by step :biggrin

Num 32:11-12 KJV Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: (12) Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.

Are Moses and Aaron in the group who wholly followed Yahweh and saw the Promised Land ?

They may be in your group but they weren't in Paul's

They are in Yahweh's group who fell in the wilderness and didn't enter the Promised Land which you equate to salvation. Paul agrees with Yahweh so this must mean you disagree with Paul. ( and me :biggrin )

Hebrews 4:8 is speaking of Joshua not Jesus. The "he" in that verse that spoke of another day was David, he lived before Jesus.

I have no idea what your point is here aside from dodging the obvious contradiction in your doctrine.

 

[agua.]

Here's another interesting tidbit and tie between the Israelite in the OT and Believers in the NT.

Deu 8:1-5 KJV All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers. (2) And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no. (3) And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. (4) Thy raiment waxed not old upon thee, neither did thy foot swell, these forty years. (5) Thou shalt also consider in thine heart, that, as a man chasteneth his son, so the LORD thy God chasteneth thee.

We see that Yahweh disciplined the Israelite as sons to the point of killing them ( plague and letting them die etc) in the wilderness.


Heb 12:6-8 KJV For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Here we see similar actions from Yahweh ( sickness and death ) as chastisement/discipline and the curious statement from Paul " that we should not be condemned with the world". The correlation between the Israelite to the Christian is pretty cool !

 

[Butch5]

Paul was telling us that Joshua took the Israelite into the Promised Land ( across the Jordan ) to receive rest from their physical enemies. Are you suggesting when the Israelite crossed the Jordan this was equivalent to the rest Jesus will give them at the resurrection ? Oh I noticed I haven't really answered your question I think.

"is Paul telling his readers that Joshua, the man who followed Moses is going to take them into the Promised Land?" Let me reread the passage again.

Firstly which particular scripture are you referring to ? I'll take a guess and suggest Paul told us Joshua took the Israelite into the Promised Land when they crossed the Jordan but tells us this wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future. ( does that answer your question? )

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

I'm not asking about the Israelites of Joshua's day. Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God and that some must enter it. Is he telling his readers that Joshua, the leader who followed Moses, is going to take Paul's readers into the promised land?

Your Honour permission to treat the witness as hostile :biggrin Never mind I withdraw the question Butch is avoiding it because it hinders his doctrine.

It doesn't hinder my doctrine at all. The problem is that not every word in Scripture has universal application. What does it mean to turn one over to Satan? How does one do that? Do you have the authority to take believing sinner and give them to Satan? I don't think people always think through what they're saying in their posts. Look at what the passage says,

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1Co 5:1-5 KJV)

It seems somehow Paul has some authority in this as he says with my spirit, and with the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul was an apostle, he had and the other apostles had authority from Christ that other Christians don't have. Jesus also gave them them the authority to forgive sins, no other Christians were given that authority.

Also notice what is saved, it's the spirit. He doesn't say that the flesh will be saved, yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again. The spirit belongs to God, we saw that in Gen 2:7 where God breaths into man His breath/spirit of life. Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan.

To use this passage to support your argument requires one to believe in Platonic Dualism, that's simply not what the Scriptures teach.

Ok maybe we should clear this up step by step :biggrin

Num 32:11-12 KJV Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: (12) Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.

Are Moses and Aaron in the group who wholly followed Yahweh and saw the Promised Land ?

Well, if you look at the Greek and Hebrew texts you'll find that the word "none" isn't in the text. Young's literal translation is closer to the texts

YLT Numbers 32:11 They do not see -- the men who are coming up out of Egypt from a son of twenty years and upward -- the ground which I have sworn to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, for they have not been fully after Me; (Num 32:11 YLT)

However, notice what the passages says, "the men coming up out of Egypt". Were Moses and Aaron, coming up out of Egypt? No, they were sent "TO" Egypt to bring out God's people.

10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. {eloquent: Heb. a man or words} {heretofore: Heb. since yesterday, nor since the third day}
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. {wilt: or, shouldest}
14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
(Exo 4:10-16 KJV)

They are in Yahweh's group who fell in the wilderness and didn't enter the Promised Land which you equate to salvation. Paul agrees with Yahweh so this must mean you disagree with Paul. ( and me :biggrin )

They may have fallen in the wilderness but they were not among "the men coming up out of Egypt."

I have no idea what your point is here aside from dodging the obvious contradiction in your doctrine.

What I'm talking about is Hebrew 4:8. It shouldn't be translated Jesus, it should be translated Joshua, because Joshua is the one who took the istraelites into the land, not Jesus.

 

[Deborah13]

It doesn't hinder my doctrine at all. The problem is that not every word in Scripture has universal application. What does it mean to turn one over to Satan? How does one do that? Do you have the authority to take believing sinner and give them to Satan? I don't think people always think through what they're saying in their posts. Look at what the passage says,

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1Co 5:1-5 KJV)

It seems somehow Paul has some authority in this as he says with my spirit, and with the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul was an apostle, he had and the other apostles had authority from Christ that other Christians don't have. Jesus also gave them them the authority to forgive sins, no other Christians were given that authority.

Hi Butch, I've been reading this thread but knowing that as far as the distinction between soul/spirit in man we will likely never agree and I do respect you and I know you respect me too, it's better off left alone. However, I can agree here and also wanted to make another point.

I agree with you in all the above. This is something that is not always recognized and I didn't see it for a long time, like in the last week or so. 2 It was until I read, maybe J Gill, on this verse that it became very clear that Paul was saying that 'he' had this authority and he was giving it to them to use in this instance.

Also notice what is saved, it's the spirit. He doesn't say that the flesh will be saved, yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again. The spirit belongs to God, we saw that in Gen 2:7 where God breaths into man His breath/spirit of life. Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan.

What I question here is your definition of 'Flesh' in that verse. Flesh does not always mean the 'body made of flesh and bone' actually destroyed. Paul often use the word flesh to describe the behaviors humans are prone to and sometimes they are sin that their physical body is what is the root of where the temptation lies and the problem that needs to be overcome.
G4561 - "the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"; the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin"

This would not just include this one issue with the body, there is hunger, thirst, etc.
We see that satan tempted Jesus using one of these, His hunger for bread after a long fast.

So we see that the cravings of the body are not wrong, God created us that way for certain purposes but when these natural and good things are corrupted and/or excessive they are used for sinful acts and acts of weakness causing us to destroy even the body that was intended for the good rather than for evil.
The cravings of hunger are a good thing but eating excessively or even under eating is damaging to the body that God has given us.

So to me what Paul is saying here is that the Fleshy carnal excessive corruption will be destroyed. The man being brought to repentance by God.

Just as a note, why would God's 'breathe' need to be saved in the Day of Lord?
1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch, I've been reading this thread but knowing that as far as the distinction between soul/spirit in man we will likely never agree and I do respect you and I know you respect me too, it's better off left alone. However, I can agree here and also wanted to make another point.

I agree with you in all the above. This is something that is not always recognized and I didn't see it for a long time, like in the last week or so. 2 It was until I read, maybe J Gill, on this verse that it became very clear that Paul was saying that 'he' had this authority and he was giving it to them to use in this instance.

Hi Deb,

This is a point I keep trying to make. It's only natural to understand the text the way we think, however, that doesn't make our understanding correct. I keep trying to make the point that we've got understand the text as the original reader would understand it. They didn't have a 21st century mindset like we do. We need to put ourselves in their shoes to understand what was being said to them. I think our reading the texts as though they were written to us is what causes much confusion, they weren't written to us, but they were written for us. We can look at what the text says and how situations were handled and apply concepts to our situations today, but to read the texts as if they were written to us, in my opinion, causes much confusion. One reason is because when one reads the text as though it were written to us they apply it selectively. Many, when they read of Spiritual gifts read it as though Paul is talking directly to them, yet when he says, "ye are carnal" it becomes, Oh, he's talking to the Corinthians. So, the parts that are appealing get applied but those that aren't appealing, well, those words were to the Corinthians.

What I question here is your definition of 'Flesh' in that verse. Flesh does not always mean the 'body made of flesh and bone' actually destroyed. Paul often use the word flesh to describe the behaviors humans are prone to and sometimes they are sin that their physical body is what is the root of where the temptation lies and the problem that needs to be overcome.
G4561 - "the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"; the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin"

This would not just include this one issue with the body, there is hunger, thirst, etc.
We see that satan tempted Jesus using one of these, His hunger for bread after a long fast.

So we see that the cravings of the body are not wrong, God created us that way for certain purposes but when these natural and good things are corrupted and/or excessive they are used for sinful acts and acts of weakness causing us to destroy even the body that was intended for the good rather than for evil.
The cravings of hunger are a good thing but eating excessively or even under eating is damaging to the body that God has given us.

So to me what Paul is saying here is that the Fleshy carnal excessive corruption will be destroyed. The man being brought to repentance by God.

Just as a note, why would God's 'breathe' need to be saved in the Day of Lord?
1Co 5:5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I can understand what you're saying here and I don't necessarily disagree. However, I'm approaching the passage as it's used to support the OSAS doctrine. In that sense I believe it's understood that the body dies but the spirit is saved thus the believer has not lost his salvation. In that sense it would be the physical body that is destroyed. However, as I said, Paul may be using it metaphorically, which is what I believe you've posted above. If that is the case then the believer doesn't physically die thus there is no support here for the OSAS doctrine

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deb,

This is a point I keep trying to make. It's only natural to understand the text the way we think, however, that doesn't make our understanding correct. I keep trying to make the point that we've got understand the text as the original reader would understand it. They didn't have a 21st century mindset like we do. We need to put ourselves in their shoes to understand what was being said to them. I think our reading the texts as though they were written to us is what causes much confusion, they weren't written to us, but they were written for us. We can look at what the text says and how situations were handled and apply concepts to our situations today, but to read the texts as if they were written to us, in my opinion, causes much confusion. One reason is because when one reads the text as though it were written to us they apply it selectively. Many, when they read of Spiritual gifts read it as though Paul is talking directly to them, yet when he says, "ye are carnal" it becomes, Oh, he's talking to the Corinthians. So, the parts that are appealing get applied but those that aren't appealing, well, those words were to the Corinthians.





I can understand what you're saying here and I don't necessarily disagree. However, I'm approaching the passage as it's used to support the OSAS doctrine. In that sense I believe it's understood that the body dies but the spirit is saved thus the believer has not lost his salvation. In that sense it would be the physical body that is destroyed. However, as I said, Paul may be using it metaphorically, which is what I believe you've posted above. If that is the case then the believer doesn't physically die thus there is no support here for the OSAS doctrine

Some OSAS may see it the way you describe but others, the way it was explained to me was different than that view. The view I have heard was the once someone becomes God's child He will not allow them to go so far as to perish. God is much stronger and has the ultimate power to save one from themselves. As a Father He will not allow them to run out in front of that semi-truck but He will bring them to their knees before Him. Even if this means they wallow around in a pig pen for awhile.

 

[Butch5]

Some OSAS may see it the way you describe but others, the way it was explained to me was different than that view. The view I have heard was the once someone becomes God's child He will not allow them to go so far as to perish. God is much stronger and has the ultimate power to save one from themselves. As a Father He will not allow them to run out in front of that semi-truck but He will bring them to their knees before Him. Even if this means they wallow around in a pig pen for awhile.

Yeah, but I don't see anything in the Scriptures that suggests that God forces people to remain.

 

[Deborah13]

Yeah, but I don't see anything in the Scriptures that suggests that God forces people to remain.

Nope, but He has ways of bring about compliance, like He did with Jonah. We can hide from an earthly father and refuse to comply but we can't hide from our heavenly Father.

 

[Butch5]

Nope, but He has ways of bring about compliance, like He did with Jonah. We can hide from an earthly father and refuse to comply but we can't hide from our heavenly Father.

but if someone desires to turn and they can't then it's forced.

 

[Deborah13]

but if someone desires to turn and they can't then it's forced.

I believe that one would have to no longer believe in their heart that Jesus is the Son of God, that He did not die on the cross for them, that He was not resurrected from the grave. That He was not God come in the flesh.
It was the working of the Holy Spirit that brought one to believe in the first place so it would seem that the Holy Spirit would have to take away something for them to no longer believe? Would that be God leaving and forsaking His child?

 

[Butch5]

I believe that one would have to no longer believe in their heart that Jesus is the Son of God, that He did not die on the cross for them, that He was not resurrected from the grave. That He was not God come in the flesh.
It was the working of the Holy Spirit that brought one to believe in the first place so it would seem that the Holy Spirit would have to take away something for them to no longer believe? Would that be God leaving and forsaking His child?

Actually, that's why I posted the passage about belief. I don't think what you've stated above is what is meant by belief. Those that fell in wilderness surely believed in God. They heard His voice on the mountain, saw the Red Sea part, saw the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night, they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do.

22 "because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,
23 "they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. (Num 14:22-23 NKJ)

 

[Deborah13]

Actually, that's why I posted the passage about belief. I don't think what you've stated above is what is meant by belief. Those that fell in wilderness surely believed in God. They heard His voice on the mountain, saw the Red Sea part, saw the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night, they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do.

22 "because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,
23 "they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. (Num 14:22-23 NKJ)

That is why I specifically said "believe in their Heart". Since the cross one who has heart knowledge, which can only be received from the Holy Spirit, and even some before the cross such as David, had/have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those with only head knowledge do not and were never the child of God.

Remember in the wilderness there were many people who had just come out of Egypt. Some of these people believed in many gods. But to say that because they heard God's voice that they all believed that He was the Only God, the One true God is making an assumption that they had heart belief or knowledge, of and in the One true God.
The demons who are in the spiritual realm know who Jesus is and they don't even need faith to know it.

 

[agua.]

I'm not asking about the Israelites of Joshua's day. Paul said there remains a rest for the people of God and that some must enter it. Is he telling his readers that Joshua, the leader who followed Moses, is going to take Paul's readers into the promised land?

No. Do you believe Joshua will lead us into the rest Jesus gives ?

It doesn't hinder my doctrine at all. The problem is that not every word in Scripture has universal application. What does it mean to turn one over to Satan?

It means to remove them from the congregation of believers as Jesus taught in Matthew per 18

Mat 18:17 KJV And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

and we can see how Paul followed this pattern in several places. One is shown in 1Cor5:5 and the general principle can be seen in 1Cor5:11 where Paul shows how this principle applies to " fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner".

1Co 5:11 KJV But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

I'm not sure how you can suggest this doesn't apply to anyone aside from the man who slept with his Father's wife.

How does one do that? Do you have the authority to take believing sinner and give them to Satan? I don't think people always think through what they're saying in their posts. Look at what the passage says,

KJV 1 Corinthians 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, {judged: or, determined}
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1Co 5:1-5 KJV)

It seems somehow Paul has some authority in this as he says with my spirit, and with the Power of the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul was an apostle, he had and the other apostles had authority from Christ that other Christians don't have. Jesus also gave them them the authority to forgive sins, no other Christians were given that authority.

Paul instructed the congregation in what to to when he is away,

1Co 5:3 KJV For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

1Co 5:9-11 KJV I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (10) Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. (11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Are you suggesting the Church has no Authority to remove a sinning Christian from the congregation unless an Apostle is present ?

Also notice what is saved, it's the spirit. He doesn't say that the flesh will be saved, yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again. The spirit belongs to God, we saw that in Gen 2:7 where God breaths into man His breath/spirit of life. Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan.

Here Paul is using spirit here to represent the saved person . We can see the same principle applied in 1Cor11 where Yahweh disciplines Christians to the point of death in regard to improperly discerning the Body so that "we should not be condemned with the world".

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

I don't get what you mean here

"Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan."

The flesh is often used as a simile for our sinful nature and at this stage I assume this is what Paul means but I don't discount physical death either. ( notice Paul used sarx here which is interesting ) We're dealing with 2 times of existence here with the first being this life and the second after the resurrection where the flesh will be reunited with the spirit.

To use this passage to support your argument requires one to believe in Platonic Dualism, that's simply not what the Scriptures teach.

Nah you're not seeing this clearly Butch notice what you said above. "yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again." The flesh cannot live without the spirit.

Well, if you look at the Greek and Hebrew texts you'll find that the word "none" isn't in the text. Young's literal translation is closer to the texts

YLT Numbers 32:11 They do not see -- the men who are coming up out of Egypt from a son of twenty years and upward -- the ground which I have sworn to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, for they have not been fully after Me; (Num 32:11 YLT)

However, notice what the passages says, "the men coming up out of Egypt". Were Moses and Aaron, coming up out of Egypt? No, they were sent "TO" Egypt to bring out God's people.

10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. {eloquent: Heb. a man or words} {heretofore: Heb. since yesterday, nor since the third day}
11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?
12 Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say.
13 And he said, O my Lord, send, I pray thee, by the hand of him whom thou wilt send. {wilt: or, shouldest}
14 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses, and he said, Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well. And also, behold, he cometh forth to meet thee: and when he seeth thee, he will be glad in his heart.
15 And thou shalt speak unto him, and put words in his mouth: and I will be with thy mouth, and with his mouth, and will teach you what ye shall do.
16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou shalt be to him instead of God.
(Exo 4:10-16 KJV)


They may have fallen in the wilderness but they were not among "the men coming up out of Egypt."

Moses and Aaron ere in the group who came out of Egypt unless they stayed behind.

We don't rely only on Numbers 32:11 to show that Moses and Aaron were in the group that "provoked" and Yahweh killed/let die in the wilderness.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

What I'm talking about is Hebrew 4:8. It shouldn't be translated Jesus, it should be translated Joshua, because Joshua is the one who took the istraelites into the land, not Jesus.

Yes and what is the point ? If it is translated Joshua it still means that Joshua didn't provide the rest that Jesus will provide in the future.

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus ( Joshua ) had given them rest, then would he ( David) not afterward have spoken of another day ( the day Jesus will give them rest ).

I just want to point out Butch the answer I gave you to this question previously.

"Joshua took the Israelite into the Promised Land when they crossed the Jordan but tells us this wasn't the rest Jesus will provide in the future. ( does that answer your question? )"

 

[agua.]

Actually, that's why I posted the passage about belief. I don't think what you've stated above is what is meant by belief. Those that fell in wilderness surely believed in God. They heard His voice on the mountain, saw the Red Sea part, saw the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night, they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do.

22 "because all these men who have seen My glory and the signs which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have put Me to the test now these ten times, and have not heeded My voice,
23 "they certainly shall not see the land of which I swore to their fathers, nor shall any of those who rejected Me see it. (Num 14:22-23 NKJ)

they saw the manna and the water from the rock. I don't think there's any question that these people believed in God. Scripture says they didn't enter His rest because of unbelief, it wasn't that they didn't believe that God existed, it was that they didn't trust Him to do what He said He'd do.

This is particularly interesting considering the reasons Moses and Aaron were punished in the wilderness. Aaron made the gold calf and Moses struck the rock.

Num 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses and Aaron were disciplined because of unbelief.

 

[Butch5]

That is why I specifically said "believe in their Heart". Since the cross one who has heart knowledge, which can only be received from the Holy Spirit, and even some before the cross such as David, had/have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Those with only head knowledge do not and were never the child of God.

Remember in the wilderness there were many people who had just come out of Egypt. Some of these people believed in many gods. But to say that because they heard God's voice that they all believed that He was the Only God, the One true God is making an assumption that they had heart belief or knowledge, of and in the One true God.
The demons who are in the spiritual realm know who Jesus is and they don't even need faith to know it.

HI Deb,

I don't believe there is any such thing as heart knowledge. The heart doesn't have the capacity for knowledge. I think one either believes or they don't believe.

I didn't suggest that those coming out of Egypt believed in the one true God. My point was that they believed God existed because they had actually heard his voice. Whether they trusted Him or not is another issue, but there is no way they could deny His existence.

 

[Butch5]

No. Do you believe Joshua will lead us into the rest Jesus gives ?[/quote=]

OK, if the answer is no then what is the rest that Paul's readers enter into?

It means to remove them from the congregation of believers as Jesus taught in Matthew per 18

Mat 18:17 KJV And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

and we can see how Paul followed this pattern in several places. One is shown in 1Cor5:5 and the general principle can be seen in 1Cor5:11 where Paul shows how this principle applies to " fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner".

1Co 5:11 KJV But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

I'm not sure how you can suggest this doesn't apply to anyone aside from the man who slept with his Father's wife.

How do you know this is what Paul meant?

Paul instructed the congregation in what to to when he is away,

1Co 5:3 KJV For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

1Co 5:9-11 KJV I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (10) Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. (11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Are you suggesting the Church has no Authority to remove a sinning Christian from the congregation unless an Apostle is present ?

I thought we were talking about turning one over to Satan.

Here Paul is using spirit here to represent the saved person . We can see the same principle applied in 1Cor11 where Yahweh disciplines Christians to the point of death in regard to improperly discerning the Body so that "we should not be condemned with the world".

1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

How is this the same as 1 Cor. 11:29:32?

I don't get what you mean here

"Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan."

The flesh is often used as a simile for our sinful nature and at this stage I assume this is what Paul means but I don't discount physical death either. ( notice Paul used sarx here which is interesting ) We're dealing with 2 times of existence here with the first being this life and the second after the resurrection where the flesh will be reunited with the spirit.

Above, you compared it to 1 Cor 11:29-32 which is speaking of physical death but here you're suggesting it's a simile. If it's physical death Paul said the flesh is destroyed. If it's a metaphor then the one isn't actually be turned over to Satan

Nah you're not seeing this clearly Butch notice what you said above. "yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again." The flesh cannot live without the spirit.

Yeah, I am. The flesh cannot live without God's spirit. Notice the picture of the resurrection given in Ezekiel.

NKJ Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)

Notice whose spirit it is that is giving life to these raised from the dead. There is nothing about a spirit of man.

Moses and Aaron ere in the group who came out of Egypt unless they stayed behind.

We don't rely only on Numbers 32:11 to show that Moses and Aaron were in the group that "provoked" and Yahweh killed/let die in the wilderness.

Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

I've already pointed out that Moses and Aaron were not of "those men coming out of Egypt." They were sent into Egypt.

Yes and what is the point ? If it is translated Joshua it still means that Joshua didn't provide the rest that Jesus will provide in the future.

Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus ( Joshua ) had given them rest, then would he ( David) not afterward have spoken of another day ( the day Jesus will give them rest ).

The point is that after saying that Paul concludes that there remains a rest for the people of God. He said the same gospel was preached to us and them and that some must enter in and those to whom it was first preached didn't enter.

What is Paul saying in this statement

 

[Butch5]

agua

.No. Do you believe Joshua will lead us into the rest Jesus gives ?[/quote=]

OK, if the answer is no then what is the rest that Paul's readers enter into?

It means to remove them from the congregation of believers as Jesus taught in Matthew per 18
Mat 18:17 KJV And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
and we can see how Paul followed this pattern in several places. One is shown in 1Cor5:5 and the general principle can be seen in 1Cor5:11 where Paul shows how this principle applies to " fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner".
1Co 5:11 KJV But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
I'm not sure how you can suggest this doesn't apply to anyone aside from the man who slept with his Father's wife.

How do you know this is what Paul meant?

Paul instructed the congregation in what to to when he is away,
1Co 5:3 KJV For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:9-11 KJV I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: (10) Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. (11) But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Are you suggesting the Church has no Authority to remove a sinning Christian from the congregation unless an Apostle is present ?

I thought we were talking about turning one over to Satan.

Here Paul is using spirit here to represent the saved person . We can see the same principle applied in 1Cor11 where Yahweh disciplines Christians to the point of death in regard to improperly discerning the Body so that "we should not be condemned with the world".
1Co 11:29-32 KJV For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. (30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. (32) But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

How is this the same as 1 Cor. 11:29:32?

I don't get what you mean here
"Also notice what happens to the flesh, it's destroyed. If Paul is speaking literally, then this person will be destroyed, if he's speaking metaphorically, then this person isn't literally turned over to Satan."
The flesh is often used as a simile for our sinful nature and at this stage I assume this is what Paul means but I don't discount physical death either. ( notice Paul used sarx here which is interesting ) We're dealing with 2 times of existence here with the first being this life and the second after the resurrection where the flesh will be reunited with the spirit.

Above, you compared it to 1 Cor 11:29-32 which is speaking of physical death but here you're suggesting it's a simile. If it's physical death Paul said the flesh is destroyed. If it's a metaphor then the one isn't actually be turned over to Satan

Nah you're not seeing this clearly Butch notice what you said above. "yet it's the flesh that is resurrected and that lives again." The flesh cannot live without the spirit.

Yeah, I am. The flesh cannot live without God's spirit. Notice the picture of the resurrection given in Ezekiel.
NKJ Ezekiel 37:1 The hand of the LORD came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry.
3 And He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" So I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy to these bones, and say to them,`O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD!
5 `Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones: "Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live.
6 "I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD."'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone.
8 Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
9 Also He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say,`Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!'
12 "Therefore prophesy and say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 "Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.
14 "I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.'" (Eze 37:1-14 NKJ)
Notice whose spirit it is that is giving life to these raised from the dead. There is nothing about a spirit of man.

Moses and Aaron ere in the group who came out of Egypt unless they stayed behind.
We don't rely only on Numbers 32:11 to show that Moses and Aaron were in the group that "provoked" and Yahweh killed/let die in the wilderness.
Num 20:12 KJV And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

I've already pointed out that Moses and Aaron were not of "those men coming out of Egypt." They were sent into Egypt.

Yes and what is the point ? If it is translated Joshua it still means that Joshua didn't provide the rest that Jesus will provide in the future.
Heb 4:8 KJV For if Jesus ( Joshua ) had given them rest, then would he ( David) not afterward have spoken of another day ( the day Jesus will give them rest ).

The point is that after saying that Paul concludes that there remains a rest for the people of God. He said the same gospel was preached to us and them and that some must enter in and those to whom it was first preached didn't enter.
What is Paul saying in this statement?[/QUOTE]