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Losing Salvation after getting saved?

Right. Exactly what I believe. Glad to see you agree. :)

BTW, I hope the "if" clause was noted and understood. "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith".

IOW, in order to present each believer holy and blameless, they MUST continue in the flesh. That's what the "if" connects. Not salvation.

To be "moved away from the gospel" is to move away from your faith. That will result in not being presented "holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

The same concept if found in Eph 1:4, which is what each believer was elected to: that you be holy and blameless.


Ok, so you agree?

Here it is again, the same post you just said you agree with...

IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE, AND ARE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL!

The hope of the Gospel!

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of your soul!



JLB
 
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Ok, so you agree?
I was actually hoping that you had read my post. :shame

Here it is again, the same post you just said you agree with...

IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE, AND ARE NOT MOVED AWAY FROM THE HOPE OF THE GOSPEL!

The hope of the Gospel!

The hope of the Gospel is the salvation of your soul!
JLB
OK, here is the rest of my post, that was completely ignored:
BTW, I hope the "if" clause was noted and understood. "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith".

IOW, in order to present each believer holy and blameless, they MUST continue in the flesh. That's what the "if" connects. Not salvation.

To be "moved away from the gospel" is to move away from your faith. That will result in not being presented "holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

The same concept is found in Eph 1:4, which is what each believer was elected to: that you be holy and blameless.


Could you please deal with what I posted?

If you disagree, please explain how and why I'm wrong. Thanks.
 
you cant lose your salvation anymore then you can earn it.
when you took Jesus, when you believed the truth that his sacrifice on the cross was a gift of pardon for all your sins, then at that moment all your sins became his and God's righteousness became yours.
DONE !!
FINISHED !!
And this POSITION will last as long as God lives.
That is how eternally secure a believer has become via "born again", and this is why the New Testament tells you that you are "sealed until the day of Redemption".
Some of you have a problem with the world "sealed" and would have this mean..."almost".
However, this is why your New Testament tells you that you are NOW IN CHRIST, as in, joined, as in, ONE, and you are not able to undo it, as GOD is the one that did it to you as Jesus did it for you.
You have nothing to do with it., and that goes for your water baptism, and your particular Church, and your Martyr complex.
See, you cant Undo a BIRTH.
You cant undo "born again" even by misunderstanding the scriptures:)....tho you do try, dont ya !.
The worst you can do, is lose your joy, health, peace, and totally ruin your life and perhaps the lives of others, and then die and end up facing Jesus at the Judgment seat of Christ, and all you have to offer him is your rotten saved self.
You wont be able to offer him all the souls you led to salvation or a lifetime of dedication, IF you chose to allow yourself to get away from your first love and your initial dedication.
Most do., most do get away from it..... and YET not one of them becomes "lost" or "unborn again", because of it.


K
 
you cant lose your salvation anymore then you can earn it.
when you took Jesus, when you believed the truth that his sacrifice on the cross was a gift of pardon for all your sins, then at that moment all your sins became his and God's righteousness became yours.
DONE !!
FINISHED !!
And this POSITION will last as long as God lives.
That is how eternally secure a believer has become via "born again", and this is why the New Testament tells you that you are "sealed until the day of Redemption".
Some of you have a problem with the world "sealed" and would have this mean..."almost".
However, this is why your New Testament tells you that you are NOW IN CHRIST, as in, joined, as in, ONE, and you are not able to undo it, as GOD is the one that did it to you as Jesus did it for you.
You have nothing to do with it., and that goes for your water baptism, and your particular Church, and your Martyr complex.
See, you cant Undo a BIRTH.
You cant undo "born again" even by misunderstanding the scriptures:)....tho you do try, dont ya !.
The worst you can do, is lose your joy, health, peace, and totally ruin your life and perhaps the lives of others, and then die and end up facing Jesus at the Judgment seat of Christ, and all you have to offer him is your rotten saved self.
You wont be able to offer him all the souls you led to salvation or a lifetime of dedication, IF you chose to allow yourself to get away from your first love and your initial dedication.
Most do., most do get away from it..... and YET not one of them becomes "lost" or "unborn again", because of it.

K

Is this your opinion?
 
You can't use 'saved people are saved and, therefore, can't deny Christ and lose their salvation' as the answer to whether saved people can deny Christ and lose their salvation, the topic of debate.

Hi Jethro. How are you my friend, are you excited about fall?

Ok, let's take a look at the definitions of 'faithless' and 'disown' to see if they are the same. Notice the word 'faithless' is an adjective, and the word 'disown' is a verb. An adjective is a word or phrase naming an attribute, added to or grammatically related to a noun to modify or describe it. A verb is a word used to describe an action, state, or occurrence, and forming the main part of the predicate of a sentence, such as hear, become, happen.

faithless / adjective http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faithless?s=t
1. not adhering to allegiance, promises, vows, or duty:
the faithless behavior of Benedict Arnold.
2. not trustworthy; unreliable.
3. without trust or belief.
4. being without religious faith.
5. (among Christians) bereft of Christian faith.

disown - verb (used with object) http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disown?s=t
1. to refuse to acknowledge as belonging or pertaining to oneself; deny the ownership of or responsibility for; repudiate; renounce: to disown one's heirs; to disown a published statement.

Now, I want to bring something to your attention here. Notice in verse 12 and 13 he uses the word 'disown' twice, using the word in two different ways. In verse 12 he says Jesus will disown us, and then verse 13 he says he cannot disown himself. Why did he do this. This is not a contradiction as many would believe. Let's take a look at this closer, is he describing two different circumstances here?

2 Tim 2:11-13
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

It's important to take this scripture figuratively and not literally. I will show you why. Since there is no contradiction with the word 'disown' then the only answer is that scripture is speaking of two different people, born again believers vs apostates/nonbelievers/religious christians. If you take this as literal and that a born again christian can disown God, then it is saying that God can in fact disown himself. But it doesn't say that, it says God (cannot) disown himself. Why can't God disown himself you ask? Because when Jesus died on the cross his sacrifice was forever, he died for all sins. When the Holy Spirit indwells a believer, he will never leave them. Notice the word 'forever' and 'in you' here.... John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

Now, let's go back to the definitions. Verse 12 uses the words 'disown and disown'. Verse 13 uses the words 'faithless and disown'. These two verses are describing two different circumstances. 'Faithless' is an adjective and 'Disown' is a verb. 'Faithless' is describing the condition of the heart, and 'Disown' is describing the action taken BY the condition of the heart. It's impossible for a born again christian to not acknowledge that a God exists, he's already been sealed with the Holy Spirit forever. It's impossible for a born again christian to disown one's heirs. Notice in the word 'disown', it says to disown one's heirs. When you are sealed in Christ, you are joined into an heir. (Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.)

A born again christian can be faithless but never disown God. That just means he has trust issues during his walk with Jesus, but the Holy Spirit being the helper helps him in his trust issues. This is one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit, to help us.

heir - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/heir?s=t
1.a person who inherits or has a right of inheritance in the property of another following the latter's death.
2.Law. (in common law) a person who inherits all the property of a deceased person, as by descent, relationship, will, or legal process. Civil Law. a person who legally succeeds to the place of a deceased person and assumes the rights and obligations of the deceased, as the liabilities for debts or the possessory rights to property.
3. a person who inherits or is entitled to inherit the rank, title, position, etc., of another.
4. a person or group considered as inheriting the tradition, talent, etc., of a predecessor.

inherit - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/inherit?s=t
1. to take or receive (property, a right, a title, etc.) by succession or will, as an heir:
to inherit the family business.
2. to receive as if by succession from predecessors:
the problems the new government inherited from its predecessors.
3. to receive (a genetic character) by the transmission of hereditary factors.
4. to succeed (a person) as heir.
5. to receive as one's portion; come into possession of:
to inherit his brother's old clothes.
 
you cant lose your salvation anymore then you can earn it.
when you took Jesus, when you believed the truth that his sacrifice on the cross was a gift of pardon for all your sins, then at that moment all your sins became his and God's righteousness became yours.
DONE !!
FINISHED !!
And this POSITION will last as long as God lives.
That is how eternally secure a believer has become via "born again", and this is why the New Testament tells you that you are "sealed until the day of Redemption".
Some of you have a problem with the world "sealed" and would have this mean..."almost".
However, this is why your New Testament tells you that you are NOW IN CHRIST, as in, joined, as in, ONE, and you are not able to undo it, as GOD is the one that did it to you as Jesus did it for you.
You have nothing to do with it., and that goes for your water baptism, and your particular Church, and your Martyr complex.
See, you cant Undo a BIRTH.
You cant undo "born again" even by misunderstanding the scriptures:)....tho you do try, dont ya !.
The worst you can do, is lose your joy, health, peace, and totally ruin your life and perhaps the lives of others, and then die and end up facing Jesus at the Judgment seat of Christ, and all you have to offer him is your rotten saved self.
You wont be able to offer him all the souls you led to salvation or a lifetime of dedication, IF you chose to allow yourself to get away from your first love and your initial dedication.
Most do., most do get away from it..... and YET not one of them becomes "lost" or "unborn again", because of it.


K

Truth.
 
you cant lose your salvation anymore then you can earn it.
when you took Jesus, when you believed the truth that his sacrifice on the cross was a gift of pardon for all your sins, then at that moment all your sins became his and God's righteousness became yours.
DONE !!
FINISHED !!
And this POSITION will last as long as God lives.
In this life this position will last as long as the faith that put Christ's sacrifice and ministry before the Father on your behalf continues. Paul said you stand BY FAITH, but if you lose that faith you will no longer stand. Just as the Jews do not stand in Christ and are not saved because of them having no faith in Christ.


That is how eternally secure a believer has become via "born again", and this is why the New Testament tells you that you are "sealed until the day of Redemption".
Some of you have a problem with the world "sealed" and would have this mean..."almost".
No. What we have a problem with is people insisting 'seal' by definition means irreversible and unable to be removed.

However, this is why your New Testament tells you that you are NOW IN CHRIST...
'Ding'
Agreed. Good so far.

...as in, joined, as in, ONE...
'Ding'
Agreed. Still doing good.

...and you are not able to undo it, as GOD is the one that did it to you as Jesus did it for you.
XXX
Wrong. God is indeed the one who did it, but that hardly means I had no obligation to 'do' the work of believing to apply what God did for me to myself. Add to that, the Bible warns me to not stop believing so I can keep what I have now in salvation, and what I am hoping for in the future.

You have nothing to do with it.
Wrong, I had something to do with it. I chose to believe the Word. Most choose not to.

...and that goes for your water baptism, and your particular Church, and your Martyr complex.
Yeah, martyr complex.....I had to believe in Christ to be justified, and I have to continue to believe in Christ to continue to be justified, apart from the merit of my works. What an arrogant, narcissistic, egocentric, works based gospel. :lol


See, you cant Undo a BIRTH.
You cant undo "born again" even by misunderstanding the scriptures:)....tho you do try, dont ya !.
Since you and others insist on using the analogy of our own lives to try to prove the point about not being able to lose eternal life and be separated from Jesus let's not leave out the part about your life ending when you give it back through foolish contempt and/or indifference for that life, and how marriage ends when one side abandons the relationship.


The worst you can do, is lose your joy, health, peace, and totally ruin your life and perhaps the lives of others, and then die and end up facing Jesus at the Judgment seat of Christ, and all you have to offer him is your rotten saved self.
If you're wrong, you have everything to lose...everything. If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose (I told people they should continue in their faith in Christ). Still feel like rolling the dice on this one, folks?

See people? It's important that we not choose to change the plain words of the Bible to suit the flesh and set aside the plain truth they teach. It seems innocent and harmless, but it will cost you your life.


You wont be able to offer him all the souls you led to salvation or a lifetime of dedication, IF you chose to allow yourself to get away from your first love and your initial dedication.
You'll lose much more than that. First of all, chances are you will make anyone you witness too just as subject to the damnation of God as you yourself have by teaching a gospel that says you do not have to endure to the end to be saved and then don't.

And secondly, you're making a very big gamble that this kind of gospel will somehow result in a lifetime of dedication that you think it will (I've demonstrated in other threads how popular grace teaching in the church has actually resulted in the people of God doing less than what even the so-called cursed and inferior law required of a person). Your flesh will probably win out and you will cave into the very gospel you defend because you don't believe faith has to continue to be saved, and, depending on your particular brand of OSAS, are deceived into thinking it will continue without any cooperation from you anyway.


Most do., most do get away from it..... and YET not one of them becomes "lost" or "unborn again", because of it.
We'll see. Feel that ache in your stomach? That's the little voice inside of you warning you that you're betting everything that you're right, but at the same time remembering that you've ignored the plain words of scripture.
 
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OK, here is the rest of my post, that was completely ignored:
BTW, I hope the "if" clause was noted and understood. "to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith".

IOW, in order to present each believer holy and blameless, they MUST continue in the flesh. That's what the "if" connects. Not salvation.

To be "moved away from the gospel" is to move away from your faith. That will result in not being presented "holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification (holiness) without which no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14 NASB parentheses and emphasis mine)


This plainly shows us that if you are not presented holy and blameless before God, you will not be saved. Holiness is NOT a separate matter from salvation.
 
thank you. holiness is required of Yhwh's people (in the O.T. and in the N.T., by Yhwh, Yeshua, Moses, and the Apostles)
i.e. it's not an option.
 
Hi Jethro. How are you my friend, are you excited about fall?
Cooler temps, lower humidity, no bugs......YES! I'm excited about fall. Bring it! :lol

Now, I want to bring something to your attention here. Notice in verse 12 and 13 he uses the word 'disown' twice, using the word in two different ways. In verse 12 he says Jesus will disown us, and then verse 13 he says he cannot disown himself. Why did he do this. This is not a contradiction as many would believe.
We know it's not a contradiction. That's not the argument. Unbelievers are indeed the one's God disowns. That includes people who used to believe in Christ, but who have changed their minds and no longer believe in Christ. That's the argument.


Since there is no contradiction with the word 'disown' then the only answer is that scripture is speaking of two different people, born again believers vs apostates/nonbelievers/religious christians.
As I say, only unbelievers are disowned by Christ. The contradiction you think non-OSAS produces in the passage simply does not exist. Only unbelievers will be disowned. Some unbelievers never believed, while some used to believe but stopped believing because their faith was not rooted deep enough to endure to the end and they went back to the world. Jesus teaches this in the parable of the sower.


...when Jesus died on the cross his sacrifice was forever, he died for all sins. When the Holy Spirit indwells a believer, he will never leave them.
Right. He will NEVER leave a believer. He is the epitome of faithfulness. No....he IS faithfulness. If you look up the definition of the word 'faithful' in the dictionary in heaven, you see his picture there.


Notice the word 'forever' and 'in you' here.... John 14:16-18 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
You are guilty of not rightly dividing the word of God. That means you are lifting scripture out of context. In this case you are lifting these scriptures out of the whole context and counsel of the word of God. The whole counsel of the word of God tells us that 'forever' is contingent on the believer continuing in his belief to the very end of this life. Keep believing and 'forever' is exactly that--forever and ever. You can bank on it. In fact, that's the basis for our faith and our hope.


Now, let's go back to the definitions. Verse 12 uses the words 'disown and disown'. Verse 13 uses the words 'faithless and disown'. These two verses are describing two different circumstances.
I agree completely. This is the very point I've been making. The outcome of each is completely different, so they HAVE to be different. That's why if a believer gets disowned it means they no longer believe and have become an unbeliever. Just as Jesus said happens to second type of soil people (Luke 8:13 NASB). They believe for a while, but because they aren't well rooted they fall away in the time of trial and temptation.


'Faithless' is an adjective and 'Disown' is a verb. 'Faithless' is describing the condition of the heart, and 'Disown' is describing the action taken BY the condition of the heart. It's impossible for a born again christian to not acknowledge that a God exists...
That's what's so damnable about a believer departing the faith. They knew--they were enlightened--but chose to walk away from that truth and enlightenment. The author of Hebrews says they can not come back to that enlightenment, nor is there any sacrifice remaining for them to save them.

, he's already been sealed with the Holy Spirit forever. It's impossible for a born again christian to disown one's heirs.
Hmm...we are warned in Hebrews to not be like Esau who did just that (Hebrews 12:16 NASB), but you say it's impossible for a Christian to do that? So you're saying the warning is meaningless?


Notice in the word 'disown', it says to disown one's heirs. When you are sealed in Christ, you are joined into an heir. (Romans 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.)
Are you glossing over the 'if' in this passage? It says being a co-heir is conditional on us enduring to the very end.

A born again christian can be faithless but never disown God. That just means he has trust issues during his walk with Jesus, but the Holy Spirit being the helper helps him in his trust issues. This is one of the jobs of the Holy Spirit, to help us.
I agree with the faithless part. I'm human, and I'm a believer. I know what it means to fail at being faithful to the Lord's commands to do right in this life out of fear, but all the while firmly trusting in the fact that I am saved in Christ, my faithlessness being in God's protection and provision in this life, not in his promise to save me. Now if I abandon my faith in regard to my salvation itself, that is when I am disowning Christ, and now making myself subject to Christ eventually disowning me. So I'm very much aware of the difference between being faithless in Christ, and disowning Christ altogether.
 
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I was actually hoping that you had read my post. :shame

OK, here is the rest of my post, that was completely ignored:

IOW, in order to present each believer holy and blameless, they MUST continue in the flesh. That's what the "if" connects. Not salvation.

The same concept is found in Eph 1:4, which is what each believer was elected to: that you be holy and blameless.


Could you please deal with what I posted?

If you disagree, please explain how and why I'm wrong. Thanks.


I totally and completely disagree with you. Here is the scripture I posted, and that you ignored -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

The reason I disagree with you, is:

  • You leave out, and ignore what the scripture says:
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled:

Alienated by wicked works: WICKED ALIENATED AND SEPARATED FROM GOD THROUGH WICKED WORKS! UNHOLY!

This phrase represents a person who is in need of Salvation!

The hope of the Gospel is SALVATION.



To be "moved away from the gospel" is to move away from your faith. That will result in not being presented "holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight".

UNHOLY - Strong's Number: 462 - Anosios

Definition
  1. unholy, impious, wicked

If you are found NOT to be Holy and blameless in the sight of God, then you will be found to be UNHOLY AND WITH BLAME IN HIS SIGHT.

Here is what Paul says about those who are unholy -

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 2 TIMOTHY 3:1-8 NKJV

  • ...men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith
compare with this phrase from Colossians
  • And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works


Paul clearly says, though you were once alienated by wicked works, you have been reconciled to God, IF YOU CONTINUE in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of salvation.



JLB
 
Jethro Bodine But a born again believer cannot become an unbeliever. That's the part you're not comprehending o sir.

Once the Holy Spirit reveals himself to you and indwells you,

he doesn't erase himself from your memory or your mind and heart just because you lack faith on Tuesday.
 
Jethro Bodine But a born again believer cannot become an unbeliever. That's the part you're not comprehending o sir.

Once the Holy Spirit reveals himself to you and indwells you,

Once he indwells you, at that moment you have the right TO BECOME a son of God.

That is what the scripture teaches, brother.


12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: John 1:12

Now starts the process of BECOMING.

Jesus taught us that during this process, there are many things that could make you turn away from the faith.

Persecution, because of the word, for one.

Paul taught it this way -

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Tell me in your own words what you believe this phrase means to you -

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

Do you believe someone can be harden to the point where they no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah, and depart from Him, and turn back to the religion of Judaism, whereby you reject Jesus as Messiah, and the blood He shed on the cross as of no value, And think you are still saved?


This is the context in which this was written!

This was written to Hebrews who had been saved, but were under great persecution to turn back to Judaism.



JLB
 
JLB But he doesn't erase himself from your memory or your mind and heart just because you lack faith on Tuesday. A born again believer cannot go back to being a nonbeliever. It is simply so.

Do you believe someone can be harden to the point where they no longer believe Jesus is the Messiah, and depart from Him, and turn back to the religion of Judaism, whereby you reject Jesus as Messiah, and the blood He shed on the cross as of no value, And think you are still saved?

No, if they turn back to Judaism or atheism or agnosticism or whatever they were never born again to begin with.
 
In this life this position will last as long as the faith that put Christ's sacrifice and ministry before the Father on your behalf continues.
Please listen to what you've just said. If YOUR FAITH continues. So it all depends upon your faith continuing, is that it? Where is that taught in Scripture? Are you aware of the aorist tense? It is used in verses that link salvation with believing.

For example, Paul's answer to the jailer's question: believe (aorist-in a point in time) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future tense) saved. Rom 10:9 also uses the aorist tense.

If one's faith continuing is a criteria, then all uses of "believe" would be in the present tense. All of them.

No. What we have a problem with is people insisting 'seal' by definition means irreversible and unable to be removed.
If there is any verse that speaks of this seal being broken, then you'd have a point.

[QUOE]If you're wrong, you have everything to lose...everything. If I'm wrong, I have nothing to lose (I told people they should continue in their faith in Christ). Still feel like rolling the dice on this one, folks?[/QUOTE]
There is no gamble, IF one believes what Scripture clearly states. We are saved and kept by God by grace, throught faith.

If works, or "continuing in the faith" is required, then there is no grace.
 
"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification (holiness) without which no one will see the Lord."
(Hebrews 12:14 NASB parentheses and emphasis mine)


This plainly shows us that if you are not presented holy and blameless before God, you will not be saved. Holiness is NOT a separate matter from salvation.
No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of salvation in the context. One must assume in order to "see" it.

If one must attain holiness, then one must put forth a lot of effort, which is more than faith. That view is better called "works salvation".

Heb 12:14 is saying that if believers aren't living holy lives, no one ELSE will see the Lord (in the believer). Just insert the word "else" after the words "no one".

What is the main emphasis of Paul for believers? To become Christ-like. Heb 12:14 is telling us that the only way others will "see the Lord" is through the lives of believers. How can one argue against this?
 
I totally and completely disagree with you.
That is one's prerogative.

Here is the scripture I posted, and that you ignored -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23
I responded with an explanation of my view with Scripture, which you continue to ignore. :shame

The reason I disagree with you, is:
  • You leave out, and ignore what the scripture says:
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled:

Alienated by wicked works: WICKED ALIENATED AND SEPARATED FROM GOD THROUGH WICKED WORKS! UNHOLY!
Yes, sin alienates everyone from God. In fact, Paul said the Ephesian believers used to be "dead in their sins". That applies to everyone before faith in Christ. We are alienated because of our inherited sin nature, thanks to Adam (Rom 5).

Our "separation from God" is another term for spiritual death. Which is how all humans are born; dead in sins. That's why we need to be regenerated, which God does when one believes in Christ.

This phrase represents a person who is in need of Salvation!
Yet, Paul was addressing the Ephesian believers. Who were already saved.

If you are found NOT to be Holy and blameless in the sight of God, then you will be found to be UNHOLY AND WITH BLAME IN HIS SIGHT.
Yep. Every believer is accountable to God. But where are any verses that clearly state that a one can lose their salvation. And again, if salvation can be lost, there is no grace.

Here is what Paul says about those who are unholy -

1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith; 2 TIMOTHY 3:1-8 NKJV
Nothing here about loss of salvation.

Paul clearly says, though you were once alienated by wicked works, you have been reconciled to God, IF YOU CONTINUE in the faith, and are not moved away from the hope of salvation.
I think you've conflated several verses. Please cite your source.
 
JLB But he doesn't erase himself from your memory or your mind and heart just because you lack faith on Tuesday. A born again believer cannot go back to being a nonbeliever. It is simply so.



No, if they turn back to Judaism or atheism or agnosticism or whatever they were never born again to begin with.


Turn back from the living God.

If you turned back FROM the living God, that means you turned to the Living God at some point.

The way my bible tells me that I have been born of God is -

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

By believing Jesus is the Christ, a person is born of God.


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


JLB
 
That is one's prerogative.


I responded with an explanation of my view with Scripture, which you continue to ignore. :shame


Yes, sin alienates everyone from God. In fact, Paul said the Ephesian believers used to be "dead in their sins". That applies to everyone before faith in Christ. We are alienated because of our inherited sin nature, thanks to Adam (Rom 5).

Our "separation from God" is another term for spiritual death. Which is how all humans are born; dead in sins. That's why we need to be regenerated, which God does when one believes in Christ.


Yet, Paul was addressing the Ephesian believers. Who were already saved.


Yep. Every believer is accountable to God. But where are any verses that clearly state that a one can lose their salvation. And again, if salvation can be lost, there is no grace.


Nothing here about loss of salvation.


I think you've conflated several verses. Please cite your source.

Sorry,

You can't keep ignoring what the scripture teaches -

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. Colossians 1:21-23

You who were alienated and enemies he will present holy and blameless IF INDEED YOU CONTINUE!

You must continue unto the end!

Very simple.

If you don't continue, you will be presented UNHOLY in His sight on that Day!


JLB
 
Free grace said -

For example, Paul's answer to the jailer's question: believe (aorist-in a point in time) on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be (future tense) saved. Rom 10:9 also uses the aorist tense.

Stop believing (aorist - in a point in time) and you will not be saved (future).


Simple.


JLB
 
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