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Losing Salvation after getting saved?

JLB A friend of mine wrote in regards to Hebrews..

"I strongly believe that Paul wrote the book AD 66 or 67 before the downfall of Jerusalem. Which helps establish the driving theme of the book which touches on christian suffering, the writer was encouraging believing Jews who were about to lose everything to persevere to the chapter 10. Very Jewish book."
 
JLB A friend of mine wrote in regards to Hebrews..

"I strongly believe that Paul wrote the book AD 66 or 67 before the downfall of Jerusalem. Which helps establish the driving theme of the book which touches on christian suffering, the writer was encouraging believing Jews who were about to lose everything to persevere to the chapter 10. Very Jewish book."

I couldn't agree more.

Hebrew Christians persevering to continue in the faith to the end!


JLB
 
I couldn't agree more.

Hebrew Christians persevering to continue in the faith to the end!


JLB

Indeed. Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
 
Indeed. Hebrews 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Now that we have that settled, let's examine what the Holy Spirit through the unknown writer of the book of Hebrews is teaching about this faith, which we must continue to hold fast to, until the end.

Key verse that clearly shows us this is addressing Christians -

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

....partakers of Christ... If we hold fast our confidence, our hope, our faith...to the end


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19


JLB
 
Now that we have that settled, let's examine what the Holy Spirit through the unknown writer of the book of Hebrews is teaching about this faith, which we must continue to hold fast to, until the end.

Key verse that clearly shows us this is addressing Christians -

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

....partakers of Christ... If we hold fast our confidence, our hope, our faith...to the end


Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:12-19


JLB

Again, Hebrews 3 has nothing to do with losing your salvation, and has everything to do with losing God's earthly promises. God's heavenly promises vs God's earthly promises are not the same.
 
We sure are trying hard to believe in OSAS, aren't we? I admit, it's a wonderful concept and I wish it were true, but in taking it seriously and reading the scriptures...I find myself sgreeing with brothers JLB and Jethro Bodine.
Which verses are clear about the idea that salvation can be lost. I'm fully aware of all the warning passages, but not one of them mentions salvation, so it is just an assumption that salvation is in view. Which verses can be provided that proves once and for all that one's salvation is conditional on one's life?

Let me ask you proponants of the OSAS view...if it's so easy to get saved and remain saved with no worry about ever losing our salvation...then what exactly is it, that we are instructed to hold to the end? To be "overcomers" of. What's to be overcome if we are OSAS?
Good question. If one takes 2 Cor 5:10 seriously, it is clear that the life of the believer counts. But counts for what? If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.

However, the issue for believers "holding to the end" refers to rewards. God rewards faithfulness and obedience. That isn't grace. It's earned. Salvation cannot be earned because it is by grace.

If "holding to the end" means keeping one's salvation, then we are basically saving ourselves by how "tight" we're holding on.

Do you really think your heavenly Father expects you to hold on tightly in order to be saved? In the normal sense of things, it is the father who holds on tightly to their child. And that is exactly what I read in John 10:28-29. God holds us. We cannot hold Him.

Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son./
This is a verse about reward. We see the same principle in Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12a. All believers will be in heaven, with Jesus. But not all believers will be co-heirs or co-reign with Him. That is only for the overcomers.
 
Which verses can be provided that proves once and for all that one's salvation is conditional on one's life?
one's salvation is conditional on The One's life, death and resurrection.

Humanity underlined, Divinity Bolded and underlined:

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 8:46, 48 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me (The One), because I know power has gone out from me.” ... And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

John 3:34, 36 For the one (The One) whom God sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit by measure.

The one who believes in the Son (The One) has eternal life,

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:37-39 Everyone (every one) whom the Father gives to me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never throw out, because I have come down from heaven not that I should do my will, but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me: that everyone whom he has given me, I would not lose any of them, but raise them up on the last day.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me (The one), and I live because of the Father, so also the one who eats me—that one will live because of me (The One).

John 6:63 The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 7:16-18 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself. The one who speaks from himself seeks his own glory.
OSAS says:
But the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent himthis one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

 
If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.
I insist you show how continuing to believe is a works salvation.

I insist you answer the question, "If when I first believed, that was not a works salvation, how is continuing to believe a works salvation?"

Show me where Paul includes 'believing' in the works of the law that can not justify.
 
DRS81 said:
John 8:11 "No, Lord," she said. And Jesus said, "Neither do I. Go and sin no more."

Have you quit sinning?
You're asking him the wrong question. What you need to ask him is if he has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God when he does sin, and if he tramples the grace of God's forgiveness by sinning willfully.

We know Edward, even though he is totally cool, is, like us, faithless from time to time, but what you need to ask him is if he denies Christ by willfully sinning, or if he doesn't sin willfully, if he denies Christ by not seeking God's forgiveness when he does sin.

So you see, it's not a matter of who's sinning--that's a given. What matters is what you do when you do sin, and why you sin.
 
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Apostates are not born again christians. Hebrews 3:12 is about apostasy.

That's because Luke 8:13 is speaking of apostates, not born again christians.

Again, the word 'disown' does not apply to born again christians.
Correct. God will not turn away his own. Apostates are the ones who get rejected by God. Someone who used to believe can become apostate:

13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

They failed to overcome, shrunk back from their faith, and will be rejected on the Day of Wrath, not saved.
 
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JLB 2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-13.htm
2:8-13 Let suffering saints remember, and look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of their faith, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despised the shame, and is now set down at the right hand of the throne of God. We must not think it strange if the best men meet with the worst treatment; but this is cheering, that the word of God is not bound. Here we see the real and true cause of the apostle's suffering trouble in, or for, the sake of the gospel. If we are dead to this world, its pleasures, profits, and honours, we shall be for ever with Christ in a better world. He is faithful to his threatenings, and faithful to his promises. This truth makes sure the unbeliever's condemnation, and the believer's salvation.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-13.htm
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions read, "if we believe not him". This may be understood, either of such who are altogether destitute of faith, who do not believe in Christ at all; and particularly do not believe what was just now said concerning his denying such that deny him, but mock and scoff at his coming, and at a future judgment: this unbelief of theirs will not make void his faith or faithfulness; see Romans 3:3, he will abide faithful to his word of threatening; and what he says in Mark 16:16 will be found to be an everlasting truth: or it may be understood of true believers, whose faith sometimes is very low, as to its exercise on Christ, and with reference to their future glory and happiness; but Christ is faithful to all his, covenant engagements for them, to bring them to glory, and to every word of promise concerning their happiness, and to every branch of the faithful saying above mentioned; and he is ever the same in his love to them, and in the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and his salvation is an everlasting and unchangeable one; nor do the saints' interest in it, and security by it, depend upon their acts of believing, or their frames, but upon the firmness and unchangeableness of Christ, the object of faith.

He cannot deny himself; he cannot go contrary to his word; that would be to act contrary to his nature and perfections, and would be a denying of himself, which is not possible; wherefore his faithfulness will never fail, even though, the faith of his people does, as to the exercise of it.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary http://biblehub.com/2_timothy/2-13.htm
13. believe not—"If we are unbelievers (literally, 'unfaithful'), He remains faithful" (De 7:9, 10). The oldest manuscripts read, "For He cannot (it is an impossibility that He should) deny Himself." He cannot be unfaithful to His word that He will deny those who deny Him, though we be not faithful to our profession of faith in Him (Ro 3:3). Three things are impossible to God, to die, to lie, and to be deceived [Augustine, The Creed, 1.1], (Heb 6:18). This impossibility is not one of infirmity, but of infinite power and majesty. Also, indirectly, comfort is suggested to believers, that He is faithful to His promises to them; at the same time that apostates are shaken out of their self-deceiving fancy, that because they change, Christ similarly may change. A warning to Timothy to be steadfast in the faith.
8 ...even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" (Galatians 1:8-9 NASB)

Let's stop this misguided exalting of commentaries as the indisputable truth just because they are published works. We have the plain words of the Bible to read for ourselves.
 
No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of salvation in the context. One must assume in order to "see" it.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3 NASB)

14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)

26 ...and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it..." (Revelation 21:26 NASB)

Only born again people will see the Lord in his kingdom. Apostates who have turned away from the faith and back to their unholiness will not. Hebrews 12:14 NASB is indeed talking about salvation.


If one must attain holiness, then one must put forth a lot of effort, which is more than faith. That view is better called "works salvation".
The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is seen in your holy work. That hardly means the holy work produced by justifying faith is somehow earning your salvation.

James says the faith that is alone (no works attached) is dead having no power to save. He did not say works have the power to save. He said the faith that does not act, being seen in it's obedience to God, is a faith that can not save. Do you want to argue the point with him? Do you want to continue to see that as a works salvation teaching?


Heb 12:14 is saying that if believers aren't living holy lives, no one ELSE will see the Lord (in the believer). Just insert the word "else" after the words "no one".

What is the main emphasis of Paul for believers? To become Christ-like. Heb 12:14 is telling us that the only way others will "see the Lord" is through the lives of believers. How can one argue against this?
How can one argue against that? Easy, you're ignoring the context of the verse which is that Esau gave up his inheritance in favor of carnal desire to illustrate how we are not to be like him and give up our right of inheritance (entering into the kingdom, 'seeing' it) by choosing sensual indulgence instead. There is nothing there to suggest this is simply a passage about no one being able to 'see' the kingdom in us. It's all about surrendering your inheritance (losing it) by choosing sensual fulfillment instead. Which is EXACTLY what Paul said to the very sensual church at Corinth:

"9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NASB)

The author of Hebrews is telling us the same thing: "DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Do not give up your right of inheritance for sensual fulfillment like Esau did!" If a believer becomes unrighteous through apostasy and a turning away from the faith that sanctified him he will not see and enter into the kingdom.

"29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." "

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..."

(Hebrews 10:29-30,26 NASB emphasis in the original)
 
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Again, Hebrews 3 has nothing to do with losing your salvation, and has everything to do with losing God's earthly promises. God's heavenly promises vs God's earthly promises are not the same.


For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

The only promise in this verse is being a partaker of Christ.

You have run out of excuses.

Unless you can prove that without being a partaker of Christ you can still be saved, your theory has run it's course.


JLB
 


OSAS says:
But the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent himthis one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.



Please show the chapter and verse for this statement.


JLB
 
FreeGrace said -

Good question. If one takes 2 Cor 5:10 seriously, it is clear that the life of the believer counts. But counts for what? If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Did the Pharisee's have the Spirit of Christ in them.

There is a big difference.

We have been asked to believe in Him, and keep our faith and not deny Him or turn away from Him.

Maybe you think that's too much to ask?

I don't.

If you fall into a carnal lifestyle, Repent and come to Him and learn how you stumbled.

Keep doing this and you will grown and become wise unto salvation.

Keep yourself from evil. Turn from evil. The Lord will protect you.


3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, both that you do and will do the things we command you.
2 Thessalonians 3:3-4


Thats not works, that obedience to do what His Apostles taught us to do.

Instructions in righteousness.



JLB
 
DRS81 said:
John 8:11 "No, Lord," she said. And Jesus said, "Neither do I. Go and sin no more."

Have you quit sinning?

Brother, we are steeped in sin while in the flesh. I can't say that I am sinless, but I can't say that I have stopped seeking the Lords forgiveness when I do sin either. Consider King David, a man called a man after Gods own heart...he continued to sin and yet somehow earned this title of sorts. How did he do that? He kept getting back up and returning to the Lord in humility and seeking forgiveness.
 
You're asking him the wrong question. What you need to ask him is if he has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God when he does sin, and if he tramples the grace of God's forgiveness by sinning willfully.

We know Edward, even though he is totally cool, is, like us, faithless from time to time, but what you need to ask him is if he denies Christ by willfully sinning, or if he doesn't sin willfully, if he denies Christ by not seeking God's forgiveness when he does sin.

So you see, it's not a matter of who's sinning--that's a given. What matters is what you do when you do sin, and why you sin.

There you go, right there brother. I see Jethro has a good handle on it. :) :thumbsup
 
Which verses are clear about the idea that salvation can be lost. I'm fully aware of all the warning passages, but not one of them mentions salvation, so it is just an assumption that salvation is in view. Which verses can be provided that proves once and for all that one's salvation is conditional on one's life?


Good question. If one takes 2 Cor 5:10 seriously, it is clear that the life of the believer counts. But counts for what? If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.

However, the issue for believers "holding to the end" refers to rewards. God rewards faithfulness and obedience. That isn't grace. It's earned. Salvation cannot be earned because it is by grace.

If "holding to the end" means keeping one's salvation, then we are basically saving ourselves by how "tight" we're holding on.

Do you really think your heavenly Father expects you to hold on tightly in order to be saved? In the normal sense of things, it is the father who holds on tightly to their child. And that is exactly what I read in John 10:28-29. God holds us. We cannot hold Him.


This is a verse about reward. We see the same principle in Rom 8:17 and 2 Tim 2:12a. All believers will be in heaven, with Jesus. But not all believers will be co-heirs or co-reign with Him. That is only for the overcomers.

Wow. I don't know brother. If I felt like that, I'd probably feel as if I'd be standing before Jesus one day, telling Him what He meant. He is the judge, not me. There's no fear and trembling in what you say, no fear of God.
 
Wow. I don't know brother. If I felt like that, I'd probably feel as if I'd be standing before Jesus one day, telling Him what He meant. He is the judge, not me. There's no fear and trembling in what you say, no fear of God.


Edward.... IN THE HOUSE!
 
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