Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Edward]

:yes

 

[JLB]

Believing is the prerequisite, or condition that must be met in order to be saved.

11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


…lest they should believe and be saved.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
FreeGrace said: ↑
Which verses can be provided that proves once and for all that one's salvation is conditional on one's life?

one's salvation is conditional on The One's life, death and resurrection.

Humanity underlined, Divinity Bolded and underlined

I fully agree. I like the way you changed what I asked to focus on the truth. The only condition fore humanity is faith.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 8:46, 48 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me (The One), because I know power has gone out from me.” ... And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

John 3:34, 36 For the one (The One) whom God sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit by measure.

The one who believes in the Son (The One) has eternal life,

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:37-39 Everyone (every one) whom the Father gives to me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never throw out, because I have come down from heaven not that I should do my will, but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me: that everyone whom he has given me, I would not lose any of them, but raise them up on the last day.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me (The one), and I live because of the Father, so also the one who eats me—that one will live because of me (The One).

John 6:63 The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 7:16-18 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself. The one who speaks from himself seeks his own glory.
​

OSAS says:

But the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent him—this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Instead of OSAS, I like to say: "Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God"​

 

[FreeGrace]

I insist you show how continuing to believe is a works salvation.

I insist you answer the question, "If when I first believed, that was not a works salvation, how is continuing to believe a works salvation?"

The issue of "continuing" does take effort. In fact, if I have to continue, that makes me responsible for my salvation. No one yet has shown any verse that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. There's a whole lot of assummin' going on, but no clear verses on it.

Show me where Paul includes 'believing' in the works of the law that can not justify.

He didn't. What is your point?

Please answer (I don't insist, like you) this question. Jesus describes believers, who are also described as children of God, as being in the Father's hand (Jn 10:28-29), which no one can pluck out.

So, who is doing the holding here, the Father, or His child?

 

[FreeGrace]

You're asking him the wrong question. What you need to ask him is if he has stopped seeking the forgiveness of God when he does sin, and if he tramples the grace of God's forgiveness by sinning willfully.

We know Edward, even though he is totally cool, is, like us, faithless from time to time, but what you need to ask him is if he denies Christ by willfully sinning, or if he doesn't sin willfully, if he denies Christ by not seeking God's forgiveness when he does sin.

So you see, it's not a matter of who's sinning--that's a given. What matters is what you do when you do sin, and why you sin.

Not for salvation, it doesn't. It matters for fellowship. See 1 John 1.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of salvation in the context. One must assume in order to "see" it.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3 NASB)

This wasn't the context at all.

Only born again people will see the Lord in his kingdom.

Correct. No argument. The question is: who is born again? Those who have believed. In fact, at the moment they believe, they have been born again. OSAS, or once BA, always BA, or once a child of God, always a child of God.

Apostates who have turned away from the faith and back to their unholiness will not. Hebrews 12:14 NASB is indeed talking about salvation.

Your opinion is noted. This is what it says: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Note that the writer is commanding born again people to "follow peace and holiness" with all men (everyone). Why? The second part answers the question: without which (peace and holiness) no man will see the Lord.

The writer is not telling his saved audience that without peace and holiness they will not see the Lord. If that were true, then salvation is directly by human effort, which is called works, or deeds. Which is exactly what the Pharisees thought was the way to heaven.

The faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is seen in your holy work. That hardly means the holy work produced by justifying faith is somehow earning your salvation.

The problem is that no one is 100% successful at producing holy work. Not even 50%. In fact, reading through the epistles, it is clear that the writers were commanding believers (saved people) to stop immorality, etc. Yet, not even a hint that such behavior will result in loss of salvation. (I can't wait for your reply re: 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5)

James says the faith that is alone (no works attached) is dead having no power to save.

James used "sozo" 5 times, none of which refers to eternal salvation. Just look at context. in James 2:14-26, the context is obviously hypocrisy. Those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith are hypocrites, not unsaved.

And, btw, no believer is always unhypocritical. We ALL have been hypocritical at some point or other. That does not equate to loss of salvation.

He did not say works have the power to save. He said the faith that does not act, being seen in it's obedience to God, is a faith that can not save. Do you want to argue the point with him? Do you want to continue to see that as a works salvation teaching?

His point was that believers who act like the idiot in v.15-16 is a hypocrite, and will be charges as such. He was warning believers to avoid that charge. Or, be delivered from it (sozo).

v.18 makes it all clear. How can a believer demonstrate his faith apart from works? It can't be done. We demonstate our faith to other humans. God sees the heart. Demonstrating our faith isn't for God's benefit. It is for other people, so they will see that we "practice what we preach", unlike the hypocrite believers, who don't.

How can one argue against that? Easy, you're ignoring the context of the verse which is that Esau gave up his inheritance in favor of carnal desire to illustrate how we are not to be like him and give up our right of inheritance (entering into the kingdom, 'seeing' it) by choosing sensual indulgence instead. There is nothing there to suggest this is simply a passage about no one being able to 'see' the kingdom in us. It's all about surrendering your inheritance (losing it) by choosing sensual fulfillment instead. Which is EXACTLY what Paul said to the very sensual church at Corinth:

It takes spiritual discernment to understand what inheritance means in the specific passage where it's found.

"9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NASB)

OK, here it is. The context is unrighteous believers, who are taking other believers to court and being lousy testimonies. To "inherit" the kingdom speaks of being a co-heir with Christ (Rom 8:17), or reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12). Not salvation. To inherit the kingdom, co-heirs or co-reigning with Christ is a reward for faithfulness.

Listen to what Jesus promised:
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:12

So, want to argue that Christ's reward is salvation? Then your view has to be that salvation is by work.


Again, those against OSAS cannot find any Scripture that clearly states that one's salvation can be lost by sin, etc.

btw, Christ died for ALL sin. So sin cannot be an issue.

The author of Hebrews is telling us the same thing: "DO NOT BE DECEIVED. Do not give up your right of inheritance for sensual fulfillment like Esau did!" If a believer becomes unrighteous through apostasy and a turning away from the faith that sanctified him he will not see and enter into the kingdom.

From this, it appears that your view is that Christ didn't die for ALL sin, then. Is that right?

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
Good question. If one takes 2 Cor 5:10 seriously, it is clear that the life of the believer counts. But counts for what? If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Did the Pharisee's have the Spirit of Christ in them.

Irrelevant question. No believer did at that time. It wasn't until after Christ's ascension that believers had the Spirit of Christ in them. Which explains the pin headed actions of Peter and the rest.

We have been asked to believe in Him, and keep our faith and not deny Him or turn away from Him.

We have been PROMISED that those who do keep the faith and not deny Him, will be richly rewarded.

Maybe you think that's too much to ask?

No.

If you fall into a carnal lifestyle, Repent and come to Him and learn how you stumbled.

But not to maintain or regain eternal life.

Keep doing this and you will grown and become wise unto salvation.

Sure. Spiritual growth to maturity. But, again, not for salvation.

Keep yourself from evil. Turn from evil. The Lord will protect you.

Yes, He will. But none of this speaks to the idea of loss of salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother, we are steeped in sin while in the flesh. I can't say that I am sinless, but I can't say that I have stopped seeking the Lords forgiveness when I do sin either. Consider King David, a man called a man after Gods own heart...he continued to sin and yet somehow earned this title of sorts. How did he do that? He kept getting back up and returning to the Lord in humility and seeking forgiveness.

Your quoting of John 8:11 seemed to suggest that a believer can stop sinning. I agree with your post here.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
FreeGrace said: ↑
Which verses can be provided that proves once and for all that one's salvation is conditional on one's life?

I fully agree. I like the way you changed what I asked to focus on the truth. The only condition fore humanity is faith.

Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but the one who comes after me is more powerful than I am, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luke 8:46, 48 But Jesus said, “Someone touched me (The One), because I know power has gone out from me.” ... And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”

John 3:34, 36 For the one (The One) whom God sent speaks the words of God, for he does not give the Spirit by measure.

The one who believes in the Son (The One) has eternal life,

John 5:24 Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

John 6:37-39 Everyone (every one) whom the Father gives to me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never throw out, because I have come down from heaven not that I should do my will, but the will of the one who sent me. Now this is the will of the one who sent me: that everyone whom he has given me, I would not lose any of them, but raise them up on the last day.

John 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me (The one), and I live because of the Father, so also the one who eats me—that one will live because of me (The One).

John 6:63 The Spirit is the one who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

John 7:16-18 So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not mine, but is from the one who sent me. If anyone wants to do his will, he will know about my teaching, whether it is from God or I am speaking from myself. The one who speaks from himself seeks his own glory.
​

OSAS says:

But the one who seeks the glory of the one who sent him—this one is true, and there is no unrighteousness in him.

Instead of OSAS, I like to say: "Once a child of God, ALWAYS a child of God"​

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Believing is the condition by which the work of the Cross and the resurrection of Him from the dead, translates to the believer as being saved...lest they should believe and be saved.

believe is the condition to being saved.

believe = being saved.

Believe for a while = being saved for a while.

I just don't see how you can deny this foundational truth of God's Kingdom.


JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

Irrelevant question. No believer did at that time. It wasn't until after Christ's ascension that believers had the Spirit of Christ in them. Which explains the pin headed actions of Peter and the rest.

You continue with statements that are opposed to the truth of the scriptures.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:8-11

The Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament Prophets!


Your whole foundational belief system needs to be over-hauled, Brother.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Wow. I don't know brother. If I felt like that, I'd probably feel as if I'd be standing before Jesus one day, telling Him what He meant. He is the judge, not me. There's no fear and trembling in what you say, no fear of God.

I have no idea what you are getting at. When it comes to faith, there should be no fear and trembling. Trust is the absence of fear. 1 Jn 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

However, any believer who persists in unrepentant sin should fear a great deal. Why? 2 reason. Loss of blessing in time and reward in eternity. Second, God's hand of discipline to His children. Heb 12:6 is SCARY.
"For whom the Lord loveth hechasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth."

Scourge = "skin alive with a whip". That's how the believers understood that word when it was written. This isn't just a little slap on the hand. In fact, Paul gives us a glimpse of HOW God the Father disciplines His errant children: 1 Cor 5:5 -

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

Notice that the incestuous man was turned over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, yet his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord. iow, Satan was free to "have at" him. And we know how that looks from Job 1 and 2. If any believer doesn't understand how much Satan can cause someone pain, they just don't know the Bible.

In fact, the writer of Hebrews gives a stern warning about God's hand of discipline: Heb 10:31 - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

That's where fear belongs. Not for salvation, but for God's hand of discipline.

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

The issue of "continuing" does take effort. In fact, if I have to continue, that makes me responsible for my salvation. No one yet has shown any verse that teaches that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. There's a whole lot of assummin' going on, but no clear verses on it.

You are responsible to do the work of believing.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

You are told to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


that is your responsibility.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

Here, Jesus equates believing WITH being saved (v.12). In v.13 He SAYS that they "believe for a while", yet fell away from their faith by circumstances of life. So where is Jesus' words about loss of salvation?

Why do some equate loss of faith with loss of salvation when the Bible NEVER says that. Just because someone loses faith doesn't God stops saving them. Those people apparently forget that it is God that does the saving. And He gives ETERNAL life the moment one believes. And there are no verses about losing eternal life, for any reason.

Speaking of which, Rom 8:38-39 include "things present and things future" as what CANNOT separate us from the love of God. That phrase would have to include the possibility of loss of faith.

But, bottom line, which no one can refute is this: When God regenerates a believer, they become His child, and the Holy Spirit dwells in them FOREVER (as Jesus promised). It is impossible to think that God would send one of His children to the SECOND DEATH, who has been given ETERNAL life and is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Utterly impossible.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
Good question. If one takes 2 Cor 5:10 seriously, it is clear that the life of the believer counts. But counts for what? If believers have to "earn" their salvation by maintaining anything, or being faithful, then we have nothing more than works salvation, and we are no different than the hypocritical Pharisees of Jesus' day.

Irrelevant question. No believer did at that time. It wasn't until after Christ's ascension that believers had the Spirit of Christ in them. Which explains the pin headed actions of Peter and the rest.


We have been PROMISED that those who do keep the faith and not deny Him, will be richly rewarded.


No.


But not to maintain or regain eternal life.


Sure. Spiritual growth to maturity. But, again, not for salvation.


Yes, He will. But none of this speaks to the idea of loss of salvation.

What part of this do you not understand?

Believing is the prerequisite, or condition that must be met in order to be saved.

11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


…lest they should believe and be saved.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You continue with statements that are opposed to the truth of the scriptures.

You have failed to demonstrate this claim. Please show me any verse that plainly tells me that I can lose my salvation.

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:8-11

The Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament Prophets!

And, yet, nothing here about loss of salvation. So, where are they?

Your whole foundational belief system needs to be over-hauled, Brother.

I would politely suggest that for your system.

Loss of salvation equates to loss of grace. If salvation, a free gift of God, can be removed, then there is NO grace. let's just be honest.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are responsible to do the work of believing.

Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." John 6:29

Seems many miss the "tongue-in-cheek" that Jesus was saying to the Jews, who mistakenly thought they had to work for their salvation. They had asked Him what God required of them (what works must they do). So He answered about what "work" God required, which is faith. But Paul very clearly distinguished between faith and works in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9, so let's not make the mistake to say that faith is a work. It isn't. It's grace. Work creates a debt owed (Rom 4), but faith is by grace because there is no debt owed.

You are told to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Completely different context. Let's stay focused. In this verse, Paul is making a point about one's experiential sanctification. Salvation contains 3 tenses:
Past tense: we are saved from the penalty of sin
Present tense: we are saved from the power of sin
Future tense: we will be saved from the presence of sin

 

[FreeGrace]

What part of this do you not understand?

Please identify which "part" you are referring to.

Believing is the prerequisite, or condition that must be met in order to be saved.

Yes, correct.

But that isn't the issue. Which is, which verse actually SAYS that if one's faith ceases, their salvation is lost.

11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


…lest they should believe and be saved.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while

Are you aware of Greek tenses? If not, please research the aorist tense. In v.12, Jesus used the aorist tense "lest you believe and be saved". iow, the aorist tense indicates a point in time action, whereas the present tense generally indicates on-going action.

Yet, in v.13 Jesus used the present tense for "believe for a while". So here, He clearly notes that even present tense actions may not continue.

But, to your view, where in this context does Jesus SAY that if faith ceases, one's salvation ceases.

Again, there seems to be a whole lot of assumin' going on.

 

[JLB]

Here, Jesus equates believing WITH being saved (v.12). In v.13 He SAYS that they "believe for a while", yet fell away from their faith by circumstances of life. So where is Jesus' words about loss of salvation?

Why do some equate loss of faith with loss of salvation when the Bible NEVER says that. Just because someone loses faith doesn't God stops saving them. Those people apparently forget that it is God that does the saving. And He gives ETERNAL life the moment one believes. And there are no verses about losing eternal life, for any reason.

Speaking of which, Rom 8:38-39 include "things present and things future" as what CANNOT separate us from the love of God. That phrase would have to include the possibility of loss of faith.

But, bottom line, which no one can refute is this: When God regenerates a believer, they become His child, and the Holy Spirit dwells in them FOREVER (as Jesus promised). It is impossible to think that God would send one of His children to the SECOND DEATH, who has been given ETERNAL life and is a new creation (2 Cor 5:17). Utterly impossible.

More statements from you brother that are opposed to the truth of the scriptures.

You seem to read a verse or two, and out of context build a doctrine on these things.

You would know this if you kept reading Paul's letter, and didn't stop at the verse you "liked'!

Of course we have been reconciled to God through faith in Jesus Christ.

However, the condition is the same - 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...
1 We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

if you keep reading you will see...

14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will dwell in them And walk among them. I will be their God, And they shall be My people." 17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." 18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty." 2 Corinthians 6:14-18


Again we see the condition -

Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean,


The promise based on condition -

And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."


You are only seeing a one sided, incomplete doctrine of salvation.

You don't seem to be able to understand the basic principles of faith.

Faith without obedience is dead.

If you don't repent and believe, you won't be saved.

If you don't continue to believe, you won't be saved.

If you turn away from Christ and choose to serve another god, then you will wind up with your other god in the end.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Are you aware of Greek tenses? If not, please research the aorist tense. In v.12, Jesus used the aorist tense "lest you believe and be saved". iow, the aorist tense indicates a point in time action, whereas the present tense generally indicates on-going action.

Yet, in v.13 Jesus used the present tense for "believe for a while". So here, He clearly notes that even present tense actions may not continue.

But, to your view, where in this context does Jesus SAY that if faith ceases, one's salvation ceases.

Again, there seems to be a whole lot of assumin' going on.

Let me add something that may help you -

Believing is the prerequisite, or condition that must be met in order to be saved.

11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


…lest they should believe and be saved.

who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Here are two scriptures where this Greek word is used - Strong's Number: 868 - Aphistemi

Definition

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron. 1 Timothy 4:1-2

and again -

12 Take heed , brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily , while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end; Hebrews 3:12-14



Believe = saved

Believe for a while = saved for a while


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

I insist you show how continuing to believe is a works salvation.

I insist you answer the question, "If when I first believed, that was not a works salvation, how is continuing to believe a works salvation?"

Show me where Paul includes 'believing' in the works of the law that can not justify.

Because it is not our faith that saves us. It is the OBJECT of our faith that saves us.

Salvation is equal privilege, equal opportunity for all men.

The moment a person expresses positive volition towards the Gospel and expresses faith in Christ, the Holy Spirit Spirit makes the spiritually dead persons weak faith effectual for salvation.

Common Grace~~ The Holy Spirit will make the Gospel understandable to ALL men.

I said this:
No, it doesn't say that at all. There is no mention of salvation in the context. One must assume in order to "see" it.

This wasn't the context at all.


Correct. No argument. The question is: who is born again? Those who have believed. In fact, at the moment they believe, they have been born again. OSAS, or once BA, always BA, or once a child of God, always a child of God.


Your opinion is noted. This is what it says: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

Note that the writer is commanding born again people to "follow peace and holiness" with all men (everyone). Why? The second part answers the question: without which (peace and holiness) no man will see the Lord.

The writer is not telling his saved audience that without peace and holiness they will not see the Lord. If that were true, then salvation is directly by human effort, which is called works, or deeds. Which is exactly what the Pharisees thought was the way to heaven.


The problem is that no one is 100% successful at producing holy work. Not even 50%. In fact, reading through the epistles, it is clear that the writers were commanding believers (saved people) to stop immorality, etc. Yet, not even a hint that such behavior will result in loss of salvation. (I can't wait for your reply re: 1 Cor 6, Gal 5 and Eph 5)


James used "sozo" 5 times, none of which refers to eternal salvation. Just look at context. in James 2:14-26, the context is obviously hypocrisy. Those believers who aren't demonstrating their faith are hypocrites, not unsaved.

And, btw, no believer is always unhypocritical. We ALL have been hypocritical at some point or other. That does not equate to loss of salvation.


His point was that believers who act like the idiot in v.15-16 is a hypocrite, and will be charges as such. He was warning believers to avoid that charge. Or, be delivered from it (sozo).

v.18 makes it all clear. How can a believer demonstrate his faith apart from works? It can't be done. We demonstate our faith to other humans. God sees the heart. Demonstrating our faith isn't for God's benefit. It is for other people, so they will see that we "practice what we preach", unlike the hypocrite believers, who don't.


It takes spiritual discernment to understand what inheritance means in the specific passage where it's found.


OK, here it is. The context is unrighteous believers, who are taking other believers to court and being lousy testimonies. To "inherit" the kingdom speaks of being a co-heir with Christ (Rom 8:17), or reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:12). Not salvation. To inherit the kingdom, co-heirs or co-reigning with Christ is a reward for faithfulness.

Listen to what Jesus promised:
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev 22:12

So, want to argue that Christ's reward is salvation? Then your view has to be that salvation is by work.


Again, those against OSAS cannot find any Scripture that clearly states that one's salvation can be lost by sin, etc.

btw, Christ died for ALL sin. So sin cannot be an issue.


From this, it appears that your view is that Christ didn't die for ALL sin, then. Is that right?

That is some straight up great bible doctrine Brother.