Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[JLB]

Yeah, they must hold their steadfast to the end to obtain their earthly promises from God. This isn't promised land in heaven, this is specific land on earth they have obtained, in the land of Canaan I believe. And changing your font color does not change this fact. It has nothing to do with losing your salvation.

(Heb 11:8-10 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.)

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Hebrews 3:14

Unfortunately for your theory, the verse says PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, and not EARTHLY PROMISES!


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

You got my.

Your what, exactly?

Obviously you haven't read my post.

I did. And I didn't find any verse that says that salvation can be lost.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

Here, Jesus notes that believing, in the aorist tense, which ignores duration of time, will result in salvation. iow, at the point of faith in Christ, one is saved.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Interestingly, Jesus uses the present tense form for believe, yet, such faith doesn't continue. Yet, where in this verse, or even passage, does Jesus say or indicate that loss of faith results in loss of salvation. It simply isn't there.

The thing that is obtained by believing is salvation, ie; be saved v.12

Likewise those in verse 13, believed and obtained the salvation that Jesus promised to those who believe.

However, they believed for a while, how long is not stated, only in a time of temptation, the fell away.

What does this teach us that they fell away from, or as the Greek says it, DEPARTED FROM.

What was obtained through believing, has now fallen away from, or departed from is the very salvation that was obtained through believing.

This is an assumption, and a wrong one. They quit believing. That is what is clearly SAID. Not salvation.

You don't fall away from or depart from SOMETHING DIFFERENT, that what you obtained by believing in the first place.

The same thing you obtained, is the same thing you fall away from!

Jesus wasn't saying that they fell away from salvation. He very clearly said they only believed for a while. They fell away from THEIR FAITH, NOT their salvation.

It is assumptions like this that lead people into error.

Now, it's up to you, to prove that what those who believed for a while, FELL AWAY FROM SOMETHING OTHER THAN THE SALVATION THEY OBTAINED THROUGH BELIEVING!

Just did.

Those who believed for a while, fell away from the salvation they obtained through believing.

Salvation!

The clear wording refutes your assumption. What they "fell away" from is their faith, which was "believing for a while".[/quote]

 

[FreeGrace]

I know that and all the prayers and fellowship and bible-reading we are doing in Jesus name and the whole bible is about Jesus Christ and you have quoted Acts 4:12, you are concluding that bible reading, prayer and fellowship are not for Jesus Christ but someone else.

No I'm not doing any such thing. I clearly said that such things are NOT for salvation. Faith in Christ is for salvation. These things are FOR believers, in order to grow up spiritually. Seems you missed my whole point.

So logically you are stating that people who don't pray, read bible, have fellowship will go into heaven????

People who have believed in Christ go to heaven. All of God's children go to heaven. All who possess eternal life go to heaven.

Your question insinuates that those things are needed to get into heaven. Please cite your evidence from Scripture.

 

[chessman]

The same thing you obtained, is the same thing you fall away from!

JLB

If you obtain The Zeal of Yahweh, via His favor, He never losses you. A person cannot establish himself as Yahweh's by wickedness any more than a saved person can maintain his salvation by wickedness. A person DOES NOT obtain salvation by playing the part on TV.

You don't fall away from or depart from SOMETHING DIFFERENT, that what you obtained by believing in the first place.

JLB

Saved people obtain their salvation from Yahweh. He roots them in His righteousness, if they are truly His.

No root, no salvation. It's just that simply.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, .... Luke 8:13

No wonder they fell away. They had no roots. It's proverbial that they should.

Proverbs 12:2-3 (LEB) The good obtains favor from Yahweh,but anyone who schemes, he condemns. A person will not be established by wickedness,but the root of the righteous will not be moved.
​

There's a reason Jesus quotes Isaiah to the Pharisees:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (LEB) For a child has been born for us;a son has been given to us.And the dominion will be on his shoulder,and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually,and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom,to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever.The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.
​

Not the Pharisees.

Isaiah 37:30-32 (LEB) And this shall be the sign for you: the eating of volunteer plants this year, and in the second year self-seeded plants, and in the third year sow, reap, plant vineyards, and eat their fruit. And the remnant of the house of Judah that remain shall grow roots downwards and make fruit upwards. For a remnant shall go out from Jerusalem and survivors from mountain Zion.The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this.’

Matthew 13:21 But he does not have a root in himself, ... ​

Did you catch that? He DOES NOT have a root in himself (meaning He DOES NOT have The zeal of Yahweh in him, meaning he DOES NOT have any way to obtain or establish much less sustain his salvation).

Once again, OSAS (done right) is a testimony to the power of God resident/rooted in a saved person.

Yes, it's about steadfast belief, not sinning, faithfulness to God's commands, etc. As demonstrated by His Son.

But it all starts (and ends) with God and His zeal being rooted inside a saved person.

Once again, even Peter thought Jesus was the Christ but denied Him until He received The Holy Spirit inside him.

 

[Eugene]

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.
Hebrews 3:14

Unfortunately for your theory, the verse says PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, and not EARTHLY PROMISES!

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Paul here is talking of the Hebrews remaining known as a household of faith. What is entering into God’s rest? Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? It is not speaking of our personal salvation, but of ceasing from our own works. Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The result in type is that Moses and others were not allowed entrance into Canaan. Were they all denied heaven? In fact Moses was told to go up to the mount and die for not believing God in Deuteronomy 32:50-52.

In my opinion this is akin to the heavenly promise of reward for enduring such as that of Rom 8 where suffering or enduring contains the promise of joint heir ship with Christ as opposed to just being an heir of God, where all children are heirs.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And 2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him

And other promises for patiently keeping the word of God.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Saved people obtain their salvation from Yahweh. He roots them in His righteousness, if they are truly His.

No root, no salvation. It's just that simply.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, .... Luke 8:13

No wonder they fell away. They had no roots.

Seeded plants that have no roots. How does that work?


"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Now or course you're going to rant and rave about the NASB adding the word 'firm' to the passage , but if we calm down and examine the entire passage we see that what was planted did indeed have root. In the passage, Jesus says these plants did spring up (Luke 8:6 NASB), showing they did in fact have roots. Obviously, Jesus is speaking of these plantings not having firm root. Context is a very important part of Biblical interpretation.

The problem isn't that the plantings did not have any roots to speak of (they wouldn't even exist without roots-they would still be seeds). The problem is what was planted and growing was planted in rocky soil. The Matthew account shows us that because the soil was rocky the roots of what God planted, and which was growing in that soil, could not go deep enough to be firmly rooted against the pull of trials and temptations.

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace said -

This is an assumption, and a wrong one. They quit believing. That is what is clearly SAID. Not salvation.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



They believe and are saved.

If they believe for a while and fall away, then what do they fall away from, but the very thing they obtained by believing.

They obtained salvation by believing.

They UN-obtained salvation by ceasing to believe anymore.

Please explain from the words of Jesus what these who believed for a while then stopped, fall away from?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Jesus gives us a wonderful understanding of the security of God the Father, in John 10:28-29, about the fact that no one can snatch us from His hand. Yet, some here argue that Luke 8:13 means that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. By falling away from the salvation that is obtained through that faith. Yet, that is an assumption from eisegesis, not proper exegesis. The falling away refers to falling away from belief, not salvation.

Such a view demonstrates a failure of faith in God to keep us saved. In fact, Eph 4:30 says that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If one can lose their salvation, where is the verse that teaches that we break this seal if we cease to believe? It doesn't exist.

To prove that a believer can lose their salvation, there needs to be specifically explicit verses that say so, or that the seal can be broken. Or that God will send one of His children (Jn 1:12) to the lake of fire.

As it is, I've only seen assumptions about verses, that do not say that we can lose salvation.

Jn 1:12 tells us that we receive the right to become the children of God when we believe. Where is it stated that right right is removed? No where.

1 Tim 1:16 tells us that we receive eternal life when we believe.

Believe = receive.

Where are the verses that tell us that God takes back any of His gifts? They don't exist.

In fact, Rom 11:29 is very clear: the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

KJV says "without repentance". NASB says irrevocable. Means the same thing.
ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

IOW, God does not change His mind about the gifts and calling He gives.

in order for God to change His mind about the gift of eternal life that is given the moment one believes, He would have to be "repentant" of giving that gift. Yet, Rom 11:29 refutes that idea completely.

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.



They believe and are saved.

If they believe for a while and fall away, then what do they fall away from, but the very thing they obtained by believing.

They obtained salvation by believing.

They UN-obtained salvation by ceasing to believe anymore.

Please explain from the words of Jesus what these who believed for a while then stopped, fall away from?


JLB

As I said, this is an assumption, and is wrong. See my previous post to this one.

 

[gr8grace3]

Seeded plants that have no roots. How does that work?


"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Now or course you're going to rant and rave about the NASB adding the word 'firm' to the passage , but if we calm down and examine the entire passage we see that what was planted did indeed have root. In the passage, Jesus says these plants did spring up (Luke 8:6 NASB), showing they did in fact have roots. Obviously, Jesus is speaking of these plantings not having firm root. Context is a very important part of Biblical interpretation.

The problem isn't that the plantings did not have any roots to speak of (they wouldn't even exist without roots-they would still be seeds). The problem is what was planted and growing was planted in rocky soil. The Matthew account shows us that because the soil was rocky the roots of what God planted, and which was growing in that soil, could not go deep enough to be firmly rooted against the pull of trials and temptations.

When we believe and are saved do we have a firm root to begin with? No, we do not. We grow in His grace and Knowledge through bible doctrine.

After salvation our object becomes the word.....to grow the root.

For salvation faith must be in the object,(Christ)after salvation the object becomes His word. They fell away from His word, not their salvation.

Luke 8:15 NASB~~"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

 

[JLB]

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.

Paul here is talking of the Hebrews remaining known as a household of faith. What is entering into God’s rest? Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? It is not speaking of our personal salvation, but of ceasing from our own works. Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

The result in type is that Moses and others were not allowed entrance into Canaan. Were they all denied heaven? In fact Moses was told to go up to the mount and die for not believing God in Deuteronomy 32:50-52.

In my opinion this is akin to the heavenly promise of reward for enduring such as that of Rom 8 where suffering or enduring contains the promise of joint heir ship with Christ as opposed to just being an heir of God, where all children are heirs.
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; IF SO be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

And 2 Tim 2:12 IF we suffer, we shall also reign with him

And other promises for patiently keeping the word of God.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Paul says partakers of Christ...

We BECOME a partaker of Christ, if ...

What we BECOME is the result of holding steadfast to the end.

We have the right to BECOME sons of God... John 1:12

We are to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Those who endure to the end, will be saved. Mark 13:13

The end of our faith is the salvation of our soul.

Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. James 1:12

but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:6

This is the message that is clearly presented by Jesus and His Apostles.

He will never leave us nor forsake us, we are to cling to this hope and remain steadfast in faith and confidence to the end.

We are told not to allow the deceitfulness of sin harden us so that we would turn away from Him, but rather we are to exercise godliness and keep ourselves in the love of God, building ourselves up on our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit.


Those who cling to the false hope of OSAS see no need to obey the commands of the Apostles to exercise yourself towards godliness...as they have come to believe that a Christian can live anyway they chose even denying the Lord, and confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved.


7 But reject profane and old wives' fables, and exercise yourself toward godliness. 8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come. 1 Timothy 4:7-8



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Jesus gives us a wonderful understanding of the security of God the Father, in John 10:28-29, about the fact that no one can snatch us from His hand. Yet, some here argue that Luke 8:13 means that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. By falling away from the salvation that is obtained through that faith. Yet, that is an assumption from eisegesis, not proper exegesis. The falling away refers to falling away from belief, not salvation.

Such a view demonstrates a failure of faith in God to keep us saved. In fact, Eph 4:30 says that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. If one can lose their salvation, where is the verse that teaches that we break this seal if we cease to believe? It doesn't exist.

To prove that a believer can lose their salvation, there needs to be specifically explicit verses that say so, or that the seal can be broken. Or that God will send one of His children (Jn 1:12) to the lake of fire.

As it is, I've only seen assumptions about verses, that do not say that we can lose salvation.

Jn 1:12 tells us that we receive the right to become the children of God when we believe. Where is it stated that right right is removed? No where.

1 Tim 1:16 tells us that we receive eternal life when we believe.

Believe = receive.

Where are the verses that tell us that God takes back any of His gifts? They don't exist.

In fact, Rom 11:29 is very clear: the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

KJV says "without repentance". NASB says irrevocable. Means the same thing.
ametamelētos
1) not repentant of, unregretted

IOW, God does not change His mind about the gifts and calling He gives.

in order for God to change His mind about the gift of eternal life that is given the moment one believes, He would have to be "repentant" of giving that gift. Yet, Rom 11:29 refutes that idea completely.

The Hand of God rationale, love that one!

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

Never is a double negative and reads better as," Never, no not ever perish!"

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

 

[JLB]

Chessman said -

If you obtain The Zeal of Yahweh, via His favor, He never losses you. A person cannot establish himself as Yahweh's by wickedness any more than a saved person can maintain his salvation by wickedness. A person DOES NOT obtain salvation by playing the part on TV.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


believe and be saved.

believe for a while and in time fall away.

What are teaching us, that a person falls away from?

If you obtain salvation by believing, then what does a person fall away from by not believing anymore?

Please show us from this passage of scripture what Jesus is teaching us that we fall away from?


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

When we believe and are saved do we have a firm root to begin with? No, we do not. We grow in His grace and Knowledge through bible doctrine.

After salvation our object becomes the word.....to grow the root.

For salvation faith must be in the object,(Christ)after salvation the object becomes His word. They fell away from His word, not their salvation.

Luke 8:15 NASB~~"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"13"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

Good point!!

Also, in 3 of the 4 soils, the seed produced plants, indicative of LIFE. Unlike the first soil, where there was no germination of the seed, which had been stolen by Satan.

Actual plants indicates life, and because of various life circumstances, 2 of the 3 soils didn't produce fruit.

The point of the parable is about producing fruit, and 2 kinds of believers don't produce fruit. Why? No root. How does that occur? No growth. How is growth accomplished? Glad you asked:
2 Pet 3:18
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord andSaviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[JLB]

The Hand of God rationale, love that one!

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

Never is a double negative and reads better as," Never, no not ever perish!"

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

We see what the promise is for good man? A man who is obedient!

What about those who forsake the Lord?

If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, then He will turn and do you harm and consume you, after He has done you good." Joshua 24:20

And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: "Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you. 2 Chronicles 15:2


If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

The Hand of God rationale, love that one!

and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” (John 10:28-30)

Never is a double negative and reads better as," Never, no not ever perish!"

The steps of a man are established by the Lord; And He delights in his way. When he falls, he shall not be hurled headlong; Because the Lord is the One who holds his hand. (Psalms 37:23-24)

Yes, sir! Both the OT and the NT testify to the security of each of God's children. We don't hold His hand, and "fall away" from His hand. Nope. He holds our hand, and more than firmly enough that we cannot fall away from His grip.

Thanks for the OT citation!!

 

[FreeGrace]

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.


believe and be saved.

believe for a while and in time fall away.

What are teaching us, that a person falls away from?

This isn't difficult. They have fallen away from what they used to believe. "believed for a while", then fell away. You're making more of the parable than Jesus indicated. He was indicating believers who quit believing. He said nothing about falling away from salvation. See Rom 11:29 and Psa 37:23-24 for your security. God holds you. Not the other way around.

If you obtain salvation by believing, then what does a person fall away from by not believing anymore?

Their faith.

Please show us from this passage of scripture what Jesus is teaching us that we fall away from?

Just did. Their faith. They quit believing because of life's difficulties.

 

[FreeGrace]

If we endure, We shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He also will deny us. 2 Timothy 2:12

You've quoted a verse without any explanation. If "enduring" is required to enter heaven, that's works salvation, and grace isn't in play. Paul was telling Tim that if he endured, he would be rewarded with reigning with Christ. If he didn't endure, he won't reign with Christ.

Reigning with Christ is completely different than being with Him in eternity.

In Rom 8:17, we are told that IF we suffer for His Name, we will be "co-heirs" with Christ. Same principle. Reward for faithfulness and obedience. Loss of reward for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If you see loss of salvation here, where is it?

 

[JLB]

gr8grace3 said -

When we believe and are saved do we have a firm root to begin with? No, we do not. We grow in His grace and Knowledge through bible doctrine.

After salvation our object becomes the word.....to grow the root.

Amen Brother! I agree to a point!

Our object should be a healthy relationship with Him. To draw near to Him. Faith comes by hearing God, not from the bible.

It is the continuing in this that is what is encouraged by The Lord and His Apostles.

Look at those from Hebrews 11, the men and women of faith.

These didn't have any bible but walked with God.

And remember, this was in the Old Testament, before the Born Again nature empowered by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

How much more should we be people of faith, and to walk with our Lord to hear His Voice!



JLB

 

[JLB]

You've quoted a verse without any explanation. If "enduring" is required to enter heaven, that's works salvation, and grace isn't in play. Paul was telling Tim that if he endured, he would be rewarded with reigning with Christ. If he didn't endure, he won't reign with Christ.

Reigning with Christ is completely different than being with Him in eternity.

In Rom 8:17, we are told that IF we suffer for His Name, we will be "co-heirs" with Christ. Same principle. Reward for faithfulness and obedience. Loss of reward for unfaithfulness and disobedience.

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

If you see loss of salvation here, where is it?

And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Mark 13:13


No explanation required.


JLB