Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

Please post the scripture for this misconception.


JLB

We are his forever!

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[JLB]

What you and JLB are not getting is who Hebrew scriptures are referring too. You're also not understanding the difference between an apostate Jew and a born again christian. Let it sink in brother.

Paul is addressing born again Christians who are be pressured to turn away from Christ and return to the law.

A born again Christian is neither Jew nor Greek.

At least that's what my bible says.

Now, if you can present us a scripture that shows that a born again Jew is part of a different Covenant that a born again Gentile then please do so.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

A born again Christian is neither Jew nor Greek.

At least that's what my bible says.

Now, if you can present us a scripture that shows that a born again Jew is part of a different Covenant that a born again Gentile then please do so.

A born again christian can come from any background JLB.
The reason a person has become born again is because of God's grace and their faith,
not because of their geographical location or their ethnic background lol.

 

[JLB]

We are his forever!

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This says nothing about salvation!

This says God will love us no matter what.

God loved us WHILE we were yet sinners!

Does this mean we were saved????

No, this means He loves us.

For God so loved the world...

Will EVERYONE IN THE THE WORLD BE SAVED BECAUSE GOD LOVES EVERYONE? NO!!


Please show the scripture that says those who believe for a while will be saved!

If you can't show a scripture that says those who believe for a while will be saved the you are believing a MYTH!

The scripture says those who believe for a while fall away.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It's not speaking of singular people, I'm sorry. It's also written in song and poetry stance. The form of it, the meter of it, the syllables of it are like a miniature psalm.

IT'S SCRIPTURE!!!

 

[JLB]

A born again christian can come from any background JLB.
The reason a person has become born again is because of God's grace and their faith,
not because of their geographical location or their ethnic background lol.

A partaker of Christ is a believer. A born again Christian.

You BECOME a partaker of Christ...

You BECOME a partaker of Christ IF...

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,


JLB

 

[DRS81]

This says God will love us no matter what.

Correct, US is referring to the ELECT!

God loves sinners that have come to faith in Him. Rom 8:33-39 is not speaking about the world, it's speaking about the elect. The elect are born again christians.

Rom 8:33-39Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[DRS81]

A partaker of Christ is a believer. A born again Christian.

You BECOME a partaker of Christ...

You BECOME a partaker of Christ IF...

For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,


JLB

You are still not giving credit to what Jesus did on the cross. It's not about us, it's about Jesus Christ and what he did for us. What did he do JLB?

Luke 22:44 “And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”

 

[JLB]

This is what the Apostle Paul taught -

...For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,


They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things-- that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed. Likewise exhort the young men to be sober-minded, in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you. Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works. Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you. Titus 2:1-15

 

[JLB]

Correct, US is referring to the ELECT!

God loves sinners that have come to faith in Him. Rom 8:33-39 is not speaking about the world, it's speaking about the elect. The elect are born again christians.

Rom 8:33-39Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God loves us before we become saved... For God so loved the world... This is before we were saved!


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are still not giving credit to what Jesus did on the cross. It's not about us, it's about Jesus Christ and what he did for us. What did he do JLB?

Luke 22:44 “And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.”

This has nothing to do with those who believe for a while and fall away, are still saved.

Please show the scripture that says those who fall away are still saved!



JLB

 

[DRS81]

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

And those who deny his deity are not born again JLB.

God loves us before we become saved... For God so loved the world... This is before we were saved!


JLB

Yes and what did he do to show us how much he loves the world.
He died for our sins so that we may have eternal life.
The elect is the apple of his eye, non believers are not.
Either you're a child of God or not.

This has nothing to do with those who believe for a while and fall away, are still saved.

Please show the scripture that says those who fall away are still saved!



JLB

Jesus dying on the cross has everything to do with it. If one believes then later on does not believe in a deity, they were never born again JLB.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you and JLB are not getting is who Hebrew scriptures are referring too. You're also not understanding the difference between an apostate Jew and a born again christian. Let it sink in brother.

There is no difference between a Jew sanctified by the Spirit and by faith in Christ, and a gentile sanctified by the Spirit and by faith in Christ. None whatsoever:

"26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
(Galatians 3:26-28 NASB)

10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him- 11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all."
(Colossians 3:10-11 NASB)

"11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called " Uncircumcision" by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands - 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in ChristJesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household"
(Ephesians 2:11-19 NASB emphasis in original)

You're trying to create an artificial dichotomy of believers that scripture says does not exist. And you're doing that in order to make the Hebrews warnings to not fall away from faith and sanctification in Christ or else be damned somehow not mean exactly what it warns against for all those who believe. As I've been showing, OSAS simply does not stand up to the scrutiny of scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

A born again christian can come from any background JLB.
The reason a person has become born again is because of God's grace and their faith,
not because of their geographical location or their ethnic background lol.

The LOL is that you have not explained how you can split the body of Christ up into two parts to make the warning of falling away to damnation apply only to Jews while the scriptures go to great lengths to say that it is not split up into two parts.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are still not giving credit to what Jesus did on the cross. It's not about us, it's about Jesus Christ and what he did for us.

How do we apply what Christ did for us to ourselves? By having faith in what he did, of course. Which I'm confident you would not disagree with. But for some reason continuing to have faith in what Christ did so that his work continues to be applied to us somehow constitutes the damnable works gospel Paul warned against. But I see no where in Paul's teaching about grace/works that faith ever moves to the side of the works of the law that can not save. For all the insistence by OSAS that it does no one has shown me the scripture that says that. OSAS doctrine simply does not stand up to the scrutiny of the scriptures.

 

[JLB]

DRS81 said -

Jesus dying on the cross has everything to do with it. If one believes then later on does not believe in a deity, they were never born again JLB.

Please provide scripture for this statement.

Jesus said believe and be saved. Believe = saved

Believe for a while...

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

What you keep denying is the fact that these who believed for a while, were never ever saved, which would mean they never ever believed.

When the message says they did in fact believe, however their believing did not endure to the end.

They received the Gospel message with joy, however when tribulation or persecution came they turned away or fell away.

These who believed for a while received the Gospel Message with joy, and in good times they continued to grow from the life of the seed, but when the tribulation came they fell away.


What OSAS would have us believe, is there was never any seed planted at all in the heart of those who believed for a while.

OSAS teaches that at no time was the seed ever planted in the ground.

The ground remained in the same condition as those planted by the wayside or never planted at all.


Jesus described a different condition.

He described a condition whereby there was seed planted and received.

That represents believing. That represents having another life growing in the heart of the one who received the seed and believed.

This other life grew for a while.

The problem with the OSAS doctrine is: It teaches there was never any plant ever growing at all, that the ground never had any change to it but remained as if nothing ever got planted in it at all, just like the ground that had seeds that fell by the wayside and never sprouted.

They believed for a while, means they were saved for a while.

They just never endured to the end.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

There are no verses that say salvation continue for those who believe for a while…

Thank you for your honesty.

It does clearly say that they fall away.

The text is clear enough. What they fell away from was their faith. No indication of salvation. That is pure speculation.

They believed and were saved.

Salvation is a condition, not an object that can be lost, returned, etc as your view treats it. And your view cannot answer the problem of how one can become UNborn, or how ETERNAL life can end up in the second DEATH.

They believed for a while and fell away.

Exactly. They quite believing and produces no fruit.

Again, nothing about falling away from salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

Can you refute this?

No scripture!

You didn't answer my question. Can you refute my statement that once a child, always a child, whether human or spiritual?

Only denying the clear scriptures to continue and not fall away or turn away.

Yes, of course Scripture commands that. But there are NO verses that say one must continue to believe in order to continue to stay saved.

That's like saying that on-going faith keeps us regenerated, as if our faith has some kind of power. No way.

 

[FreeGrace]

Faith is how we access the blood that sanctifies. Faith is how people become adopted children of God. Now read again what happens to sanctified adopted children of God who trample on the blood that sanctified them and set them apart as adopted children of God:

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
(Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

OK. Did. Where is there ANY mention of loss of salvation. Until Arminians stop treating salvation like some kind of object that can be lost, returned, forfeited, etc, they just won't understand that salvation is a CONDITION, not an object.

The condition is this: regenerated, born again, new birth, child of God.

Please explain how any of these conditions can be reversed and is shown to be so in Scripture if faith ceases.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do relationships end? If God divorced Israel His Son, His chosen, His people, for adultery, why wouldn't He divorce the believer for the same thing?

You're confusing relationship with fellowship. Consider the parent-child relationship. I'm talking about birth parent here. That is a relationship that cannot be broken or changed in any way. Yet, there can obviously be broken fellowship in that relationship. In fact, Jesus gave us a clear example; the prodigal son. He was a son at the beginning of the parable, while he was sitting in a pig sty, and when he returned to the father. The point of the parable is that he broke FELLOWSHIP with his father, and left him. When the father said "my son is dead", he was referring to FELLOWSHIP, not physical or spiritual death. There was no fellowship. Yet, the father continued to look for the return of his son. While in the sty, the son "came to his senses" and confessed his sin, and repented of it by getting out of the sty and going home. When he did that, the FELLOWSHIP was restored. And all the while, he was still his father's son.

Please comment on this.