Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

There is no difference between a Jew sanctified by the Spirit and by faith in Christ, and a gentile sanctified by the Spirit and by faith in Christ. None whatsoever:

Yes there is, a person's faith produces grace from God. Many of those churches 2,000 years ago produced false prophets and teachers who were not born again.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Besides ignoring my question, nothing. I understand it all.


So, still needing to ignore the condition of being BORN AGAIN. Your view destroys the whole concept of the new birth and being a new creation.


You guys keep repeating your mantra as if it will somehow and suddenly be true. Again, you have zero verses to support that opinion.


I did. The issue is that the one who believes is BORN AGAIN, and a CHILD OF GOD. So show me any verse that reverses those changes if one ceases to believe. Problem is, you can't do that.


Nope. Not even close. You're not even willing to address regeneration and being a child of God.

Let's try it again. How is being sanctified by the blood of Christ by faith not regeneration and the adoption as sons? See? I have not ignored your question.

Being sanctified by the blood of Christ through faith is regeneration. So, now you have to explain how believers (the text says they are), sanctified by the blood of the covenant, no longer have a sacrifice for Christ, and are condemned with the enemies of God, if they trample on that blood that sanctified them.

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
(Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes there is, a person's faith produces grace from God. Many of those churches 2,000 years ago produced false prophets and teachers who were not born again.

Now read the Hebrews passage I just posted and see that these people are indeed saved, not 'fake' saved as OSAS claims is true of everyone in the Bible who is said to believe but falls away....and what will happen to them if they trample on the blood of the covenant that sanctified them.

 

[DRS81]

Now read the Hebrews passage I just posted and see that these people are indeed saved, not 'fake' saved as OSAS claims is true of everyone in the Bible who is said to believe but falls away....and what will happen to them if they trample on the blood of the covenant that sanctified them.

They were never saved Jethro.
They performed religious ceremonies and (acted) like they were saved.
You have to make the distinction between an apostate and a born again christian, very important.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you really believe that God the Father will cast some of His children, because of disobedience or unfaithfulness, into the lake of fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels???

No, not for the weaknesses associated with growing up in Christ, keeping those failures under the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of those failures, but walking away from the sacrifice altogether that was keeping them from the fate of the damned.

Kids really do sometimes walk away from and reject Dad's inheritance, usually because of contempt for Dad. And as we saw in the scriptures, there is no salvation outside of the inheritance, the New Jerusalem. Only the damnation of the unholy in the lake of fire.

 

[JLB]

This scripture is speaking about apostates who never knew God's grace, not born again christians.

That is what an Apostate is, someone who believes is saved then forsakes their faith or God.

That is exactly what Jesus says happens.

Apostasia in the Greek comes from the word Apostasion, Strongs # 647.

This is the word for Divorce.

For there to be a divorce, there first is a marriage, which is exactly what Jesus is teaching us here in Luke 8:12-13.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

They were never saved Jethro.
They performed religious ceremonies and (acted) like they were saved.
You have to make the distinction between an apostate and a born again christian, very important.

Sorry. That's not what the passage says. You'll have to do better than that to prove the passage does not negate OSAS.

 

[JLB]

Because when one believes in Christ, they BECOME BORN AGAIN. So your view is that those God has regenerates and fails to continue to believe are cast into the lake of fire.

Your view has God casting His own children into the lake of fire.


They were angels, not regenerated humans, who BECAME children of God. Apples and oranges.

I also said this:
Or do you think that God will cast His own children into the second DEATH, you know, the ones He GAVE ETERNAL LIFE to? That would be quite weird.

And you ignored it completely.

So, please answer: how can God cast those He has given eternal life to into the second DEATH?

And support that with Scripture.

Exactly!

Whenever God casts an angel or a person into the lake of fire, that person is one of God's children.

The only ones God casts into the lake of fire are His children.

He is the Father of all spirits.

Every spirit being there is was created by God.

Lucifer was created by God.

The angels who rebelled were created by God...

Any people were created by God.




JLB

 

[DRS81]

That is what an Apostate is, someone who believes is saved then forsakes their faith or God.

That is exactly what Jesus says happens.

Apostasia in the Greek comes from the word Apostasion, Strongs # 647.

This is the word for Divorce.

For there to be a divorce, there first is a marriage, which is exactly what Jesus is teaching us here in Luke 8:12-13.


JLB

No, the title apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc. A born again christian will never forsake God.

Sorry. That's not what the passage says. You'll have to do better than that to prove the passage does not negate OSAS.

Scripture wasn't written in 2014 Jethro. It was written 2,000 years ago. That's exactly what the passage is saying. Sorry.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes there is, a person's faith produces grace from God.

I think this is quite confused. Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved BY grace. There is nothing in Scripture that says that our faith produces grace from God.

How can one's faith produce grace WHEN it is by grace that we are saved? Our believing produces nothing. But God is well pleased to save those who believe anyway. 1 Cor 1:21 NASB

Many of those churches 2,000 years ago produced false prophets and teachers who were not born again.

We are seeing the same thing today.

 

[DRS81]

JLB and Jethro Bodine His children will never leave God, because God never leaves his children.

I think this is quite confused. Eph 2:8 tells us that we are saved BY grace. There is nothing in Scripture that says that our faith produces grace from God.

How can one's faith produce grace WHEN it is by grace that we are saved? Our believing produces nothing. But God is well pleased to save those who believe anyway. 1 Cor 1:21 NASB

By grace and through faith, yes. Sorry I should of worded it better.

 

[JLB]

No, the title apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc. A born again christian will never forsake God.

What religion or faith or Person do these forsake in Luke 8:12-13?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

The believed for a while, so they were saved for a while.

Please show the scripture that teaches us apostates who forsake Christ are still saved?


That is what an Apostate is, someone who believes is saved then forsakes their faith or God.

That is exactly what Jesus says happens.

Apostasia in the Greek comes from the word Apostasion, Strongs # 647.

This is the word for Divorce.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's try it again. How is being sanctified by the blood of Christ by faith not regeneration and the adoption as sons?

Are you familiar with the meaning of "sanctified". Apparently not very much. It means to be "set apart", specifically for a holy use. It is not regeneration, nor adoption. Those are separate things that God does when a person believes. Yes, they all occur at the same time, but they are different.

See? I have not ignored your question.

See? You keep ignoring my question. How can God the Father cast His own children to whom He gave eternal LIFE into the lake of fire, also called the second DEATH? Please explain that.

Being sanctified by the blood of Christ through faith is regeneration. So, now you have to explain how believers (the text says they are), sanctified by the blood of the covenant, no longer have a sacrifice for Christ, and are condemned with the enemies of God, if they trample on that blood that sanctified them.

No, the Bible doesn't say what you are claiming.

"23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
(Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

Maybe you've missed it, but v.26 and v.18 are saying the same thing:
v.18 - 18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. NASB

"offering" and "sacrifice" speak of the same thing. Iow, since Christ has died for all sin (His sacrifice on our behalf), there is no more sacrifice under the Law for sin. Christ has paid the debt in full.

Remember that one of the issues in Hebrews was that the Jewish believers were beginning to return to the Law and sacrifice because of being persecuted. The writer is telling them there is no more sacrifice for sin because Christ paid the debt.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture wasn't written in 2014 Jethro. It was written 2,000 years ago. That's exactly what the passage is saying. Sorry.

Then show me where it says that they are 'fake' believers.

 

[FreeGrace]

Now read the Hebrews passage I just posted and see that these people are indeed saved, not 'fake' saved as OSAS claims is true of everyone in the Bible who is said to believe but falls away....and what will happen to them if they trample on the blood of the covenant that sanctified them.

What will happen to them??? Seriously??? Haven't you read Hebrews 12:6? God will "skin them alive with a whip", which is the meaning of "scourge" to first century Jews living under Roman rule. And the Romans were experts at scourging!

I don't take God's discipline lightly. Seems Arminians aren't even aware that God will discipline His children. I guess they think He just casts all the rebellious children into the lake of fire. Bummer.

 

[DRS81]

That is what an Apostate is, someone who believes is saved then forsakes their faith or God.

An apostate forsakes his religion because he was never born again,
but if you are born again God will never forsake YOU. YOU YOU YOU.
That's the character of God JLB.
You are underestimating who God is in a serious way.
This is the God who created EVERYTHING.
He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.

Then show me where it says that they are 'fake' believers.

Do you agree that Heb 10:29 is referring to the unpardonable sin?

 

[FreeGrace]

Exactly!

Whenever God casts an angel or a person into the lake of fire, that person is one of God's children.

I sure wish you were joking, because this is pitiful. Jesus many times described the unbelieving Jews as the children of the devil. And here you are claiming that God throws His children into the lake of fire. Amazing!

The only ones God casts into the lake of fire are His children.

Scripture sure doesn't agree with you.

At least we all know your view of God the Father is one of casting off those He has regenerated and given eternal life to.

btw, please show me any verse that speaks of angels being regenerated.

Your hiding behind angels is not helpful to your pov. They were created. And Scripture never ever says that any of them were given NEW BIRTH, or Regenerated. Big difference.

You're trying to compare apples with oranges.

 

[JLB]

An apostate forsakes his religion because he was never born again,
but if you are born again God will never forsake YOU. YOU YOU YOU.
That's the character of God JLB.
You are underestimating who God is in a serious way.
This is the God who created EVERYTHING.
He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.



Do you agree that Heb 10:29 is referring to the unpardonable sin?

God will never forsake you, however if you choose to turn away from Him He will let you go.

That would violate a persons free will.

If God would violate a persons free will, then Jesus would have never had to suffer and die on the cross.

Free will.

Checkmate!

Unless you can show a scripture that says God will violate a person's free will and make them stay saved, whereby they no longer have a free will to chose, then you have nothing but hot air.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I sure wish you were joking, because this is pitiful. Jesus many times described the unbelieving Jews as the children of the devil. And here you are claiming that God throws His children into the lake of fire. Amazing!


Scripture sure doesn't agree with you.

At least we all know your view of God the Father is one of casting off those He has regenerated and given eternal life to.

btw, please show me any verse that speaks of angels being regenerated.

Your hiding behind angels is not helpful to your pov. They were created. And Scripture never ever says that any of them were given NEW BIRTH, or Regenerated. Big difference.

You're trying to compare apples with oranges.

Show me a scripture that teaches us any being was not created by God.

Any angel or human was created by God.

9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?

 

[DRS81]

God will never forsake you, however if you choose to turn away from Him He will let you go.

That would violate a persons free will.

If God would violate a persons free will, then Jesus would have never had to suffer and die on the cross.

Free will.

Checkmate!

Unless you can show a scripture that says God will violate a person's free will and make them stay saved, whereby they no longer have a free will to chose, then you have nothing but hot air.


JLB

No, God will never let you go. Romans 8:31-39, Hebrews 13:5, Deuteronomy 31:8 Don't believe the devil's lies JLB.