Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

Paul said, "if we deny Him". "We" means Paul and Timothy.

2 Tim 2:12 is split into two categories speaking of two different types of people.
Many people do not understand this. 2 Tim 2:11-13 is written in poetry form.
They are talking about the church, and Israel as nations.

The elect/born again believers/saints - if we endure, we will also reign with him;
Apostate Jews - if we deny him, he also will deny us;
The elect/born again believers/saints - if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

 

[chessman]

You speak of partial quotes and then make one. The last part of Hebrews 3:14 is conditional, "if". Being made a partner of Christ is condition on the second clause.

I don't see how you read Heb 3 and 4 and come away more convinced of OSAS.

I made a partial verse post hoping someone would in fact notice that I did that. Having noticed, it's now not logically possible to claim you didn't read the part of the verse that says:

Heb 3:14 (LEB) For we have become partners of Christ, …

Or what I said about it:
"And boy, what a partner He is"

So, to answer your question about where I come away from Heb 3-4 more convinced of OSAS, it's in the fact (among others) that Jesus has quite literally partnered Himself with people IF they believe and oh what a partner He is. That's why. And, I in no way ignore the conditional clause in this verse. I'm pretty sure we both agree that salvation is conditional on believing, right? I know I do. But it's not the only part of the verse, is it. We (believers) are on the same team (or more Biblically) in a relationship comparable to a marriage partnership (that no man must sever) with none other than Jesus. If we lose, our partner losses. It's just that simple. And BTW, I agree with the rest of Heb 3-4 as well. And as far as I could tell, the rest of your reply.

"Since you hold the OSAS position, what is the Rest that Paul speaks of?"

In which verse? First, I'm not comfortable claiming Paul wrote Hebrews. It's possible, but it's also possible he didn't.

Are you just asking in general about the promised rest to those coming out of Egypt that Moses didn't enter? If so, I think it's the promised land (and Jerusalem). Thus the term 'promised land'. Hebrews is comparing it to a future Heavenly rest, sure. I don't disagree, obviously. But so what? I'm no universalist. I recognize that only some are saved. True believers, partners that is.

Since you hold the anti-OSAS position, what do you think the partnership between a believer and Jesus means? If the believers losses his/her salvation (his relationship), doesn't that partner also lose something?

 

[FreeGrace]

The promise of salvation is given to those who believe.

If you no longer believe, then you no longer are granted the promise of salvation.

Believe for a while, is believing temporarily.

Believing to the end, is believe permanently.

I just don't see where this is debatable? JLB

This is just a repetition of an opinion, totally without any evidence from Scripture. There is NO Scripture that says that one is saved ONLY as long as one believes.

In fact, your view can't deal with the issue of being born again by God. A birth parent CANNOT be undone. Period.

And all who have believed ARE children of God.

If your view were correct, then God is sending His own children to the second DEATH, yet Jesus has promised that those who believe HAVE eternal life and WILL NOT come into condemnation.

And there are NO verses that say that salvation can be lost. All I see here is assumption and opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

Praise God Brother FreeGrace, and it appears you know what the word "ETERNAL" means. That reminds me of Pilgrim in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

"Then said Evangelist, “Keep that light in your eye, and go up directly thereto, so shalt thou see the gate; at which, when thou knockest, it shall be told thee what thou shalt do.” So I saw in my dream that the man began to run. Now he
had not run far from his own door when his wife and children, perceiving it, began to cry after him to return; but the man put his fingers in his ears, and ran on crying, Life! life! eternal life!"

I think above all things, that not being able to know that God's promises to me were true, and dependent on my faithfulness would near scare me to death. Thank You Father in Jesus' name for the everlasting life we have in Christ.

Amen!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Because one doesn't possess eternal life yet.

Why would anyone say that given what Jesus said?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall NOT come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5:24

Notice what Jesus said, 'those who are worthy to attain that age.' What age? Being sons of the resurrection they die no more. He's not talking about the present. Right now everyone dies Christian and non Christian. Eternal life means they die no more, Christians die now, thus they don't have eternal life.

I'm beginning to see why this is not being understood. Eternal life has nothing to do with physical life. Of course believers die now. That's physical, and was prophesied in the Garden in the warning to Adam.

Jesus SAID that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Now.

 

[FreeGrace]

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

The passage is very clear, so what your doctrine does is say the only thing that not continuing in faith does is cause you to be presented NOT holy and blameless before God, insisting that is not a salvation/eternal life issue. But we see in Hebrews that without holiness (sanctification, set apartness) no one will see the Lord:

"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. " (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)

So, from here, instead of just going with what the plain words say, OSAS adds the words 'in you' to 'no will see the Lord' to keep the passage from meaning the unholy person (the person who did not continue in the faith) will not see the Lord as a result of not continuing in the faith. But we see in Revelation that salvation is very much about seeing the Lord in the holy city, the New Jerusalem:

"3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads." (Revelation 22:3-4 NASB)

The New Jerusalem where nothing unholy is allowed in, the unholy things being on the outside of the New Jerusalem:

"23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there ) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:23-27 NASB)

The place for these unholy people being the lake of fire, not some convenient place of salvation without rewards somewhere in between the kingdom (where holy people see the face of the Lord, not the unholy) and the lake of fire where the unholy get their part:

"7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."" (Revelation 21:7-8 NASB)

15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15 NASB)



Actually, what it says, and which we just read above is you have to be qualified to have eternal life (you can not be unholy), and, thus, live with God eternally, seeing him. And the qualification is sanctifying faith, which continues to the very end. But somehow a lot of people think any qualification whatsoever, even the qualification for a continuing faith, is a works gospel. But no one can produce the scripture that says continuing in faith to be saved is the works gospel the Paul warns about.



You're simply not understanding. By definition, no one in the lake of fire possesses eternal life. They either never had it, or they lost it before they got there through a careless neglect or contempt for the forgiveness they received for their sin debt, and as a result got that sin debt reinstated. Jesus plainly said that's what the kingdom is like.

Done.

Nope. Not even close.

There are, but OSAS makes them not be warnings about loss of salvation, but of only losing various rewards of inheritance. But we saw in the Revelation passages I shared that there is no salvation if there is no reward of inheritance. When one doesn't receive the inheritance they are cast into the lake of fire, not conveniently placed somewhere between the inheritance and the lake of fire.

Then answer this: How does one get sanctified by the blood of Christ if not by faith in the blood of Christ? The Bible does speak very plainly about saved, 'sanctified by faith in the blood' people losing the only sacrifice for sin that there is and suffering the damnation of the enemies of God.



But you said we have eternal life--all of it--now. Since nobody but Jesus has a body that lives eternally yet we know salvation does not mean having all of eternal life now. But you insist eternal life is all now and not partial now.


Like I say, and which you obviously now have to agree with, eternal life is only given in part at this time. But you argued that eternal life is given in full when we believe. I guess your point being that somehow if we have all that eternal life is now that makes it irreversible. It's clear we can dismiss that argument.

It's clear that you have no argument about when one believes, they become BORN AGAIN by God. That means that God is the birth parent, and the birth parent is a fixed condition. ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

Can you refute this?

 

[JLB]

This is just a repetition of an opinion, totally without any evidence from Scripture. There is NO Scripture that says that one is saved ONLY as long as one believes.

In fact, your view can't deal with the issue of being born again by God. A birth parent CANNOT be undone. Period.

And all who have believed ARE children of God.

If your view were correct, then God is sending His own children to the second DEATH, yet Jesus has promised that those who believe HAVE eternal life and WILL NOT come into condemnation.

And there are NO verses that say that salvation can be lost. All I see here is assumption and opinion.

There are no verses that say salvation continue for those who believe for a while... It does clearly say that they fall away.

They believed and were saved.

They believed for a while and fell away.

 

[JLB]

Nope. Not even close.


It's clear that you have no argument about when one believes, they become BORN AGAIN by God. That means that God is the birth parent, and the birth parent is a fixed condition. ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

Can you refute this?

No scripture! Only denying the clear scriptures to continue and not fall away or turn away.

 

[DRS81]

There are no verses that say salvation continue for those who believe for a while... It does clearly say that they fall away.

They believed and were saved.

They believed for a while and fell away.

You're not understanding the difference between an apostate Jew and a born again christian. Let it sink in brother.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It's clear that you have no argument about when one believes, they become BORN AGAIN by God. That means that God is the birth parent, and the birth parent is a fixed condition. ONCE A CHILD OF GOD, ALWAYS A CHILD OF GOD.

Can you refute this?

Faith is how we access the blood that sanctifies. Faith is how people become adopted children of God. Now read again what happens to sanctified adopted children of God who trample on the blood that sanctified them and set them apart as adopted children of God:

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
(Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No scripture! Only denying the clear scriptures to continue and not fall away or turn away.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read it. He did not address a single scripture I quoted.

 

[DRS81]

Faith is how we access the blood that sanctifies. Faith is how people become adopted children of God. Now read again what happens to sanctified adopted children of God who trample on the blood that sanctified them and set them apart as adopted children of God:

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful...

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
(Hebrews 10:23,26-30 NASB emphasis in original)

What you and JLB are not getting is who Hebrew scriptures are referring too. You're also not understanding the difference between an apostate Jew and a born again christian. Let it sink in brother.

 

[Butch5]

I made a partial verse post hoping someone would in fact notice that I did that. Having noticed, it's now not logically possible to claim you didn't read the part of the verse that says:

Heb 3:14 (LEB) For we have become partners of Christ, …

Or what I said about it:
"And boy, what a partner He is"

So, to answer your question about where I come away from Heb 3-4 more convinced of OSAS, it's in the fact (among others) that Jesus has quite literally partnered Himself with people IF they believe and oh what a partner He is. That's why. And, I in no way ignore the conditional clause in this verse. I'm pretty sure we both agree that salvation is conditional on believing, right? I know I do. But it's not the only part of the verse, is it. We (believers) are on the same team (or more Biblically) in a relationship comparable to a marriage partnership (that no man must sever) with none other than Jesus. If we lose, our partner losses. It's just that simple. And BTW, I agree with the rest of Heb 3-4 as well. And as far as I could tell, the rest of your reply.

Do relationships end? If God divorced Israel His Son, His chosen, His people, for adultery, why wouldn't He divorce the believer for the same thing? Paul said the things written in the OT were written for our learning. What's the point if it's not possible? Being made a partaker of Christ doesn't mean one will always be a partaker of Christ, the statement is conditional.

I don't see how you can agree with the rest of what I said about Heb 4 and hold the OSAS position.

"Since you hold the OSAS position, what is the Rest that Paul speaks of?"

In which verse? First, I'm not comfortable claiming Paul wrote Hebrews. It's possible, but it's also possible he didn't.

Are you just asking in general about the promised rest to those coming out of Egypt that Moses didn't enter? If so, I think it's the promised land (and Jerusalem). Thus the term 'promised land'. Hebrews is comparing it to a future Heavenly rest, sure. I don't disagree, obviously. But so what? I'm no universalist. I recognize that only some are saved. True believers, partners that is.

Since you hold the anti-OSAS position, what do you think the partnership between a believer and Jesus means? If the believers losses his/her salvation (his relationship), doesn't that partner also lose something?

I think I see one issue that is causing confusion, that is the Heavenly rest. But I 'd like to stay were we are the moment and clarify the rest. I am referring to chapter 4 verse 1

KJV Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. (Heb 4:1 KJV)

What is this rest?

 

[Butch5]

2 Tim 2:12 is split into two categories speaking of two different types of people.
Many people do not understand this. 2 Tim 2:11-13 is written in poetry form.
They are talking about the church, and Israel as nations.

The elect/born again believers/saints - if we endure, we will also reign with him;
Apostate Jews - if we deny him, he also will deny us;
The elect/born again believers/saints - if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

Paul said to Timothy, " if we deny Him, He will deny us" That's Paul and Timothy.

 

[DRS81]

Paul said to Timothy, " if we deny Him, He will deny us" That's Paul and Timothy.

It's not speaking of singular people, I'm sorry. It's also written in song and poetry stance. The form of it, the meter of it, the syllables of it are like a miniature psalm.

 

[Butch5]

Why would anyone say that given what Jesus said?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall NOT come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5:24

Because Jesus understood how it works. The believe has the promise of Eternal life, he has the Spirit in him. Paul told the Ephesians that the the Holy Spirit was the down payment on their inheritance. He also said that it is by the Holy Spirit that God will raise the believer.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom 8:10-11 KJV)

I'm beginning to see why this is not being understood. Eternal life has nothing to do with physical life. Of course believers die now. That's physical, and was prophesied in the Garden in the warning to Adam.

Eternal life has everything to do with physical life, physical life is the only kind of life there is.

Jesus SAID that those who believe HAVE eternal life. Now.

Yes, He did, however, you have to understand that in His culture not yours. Jesus said He only spoke the words the Father gave Him. Consider these words from Paul.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations1 ") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; (Rom 4:16-17 NKJ)

From God's perspective a believer can have eternal life yet not be in possession of it. We see the same this with Jesus' words.

37 "But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord`the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob1.'
38 "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." (Luk 20:37-38 NKJ)

Jesus indicates that even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead, because of coming resurrection God considers them alive, even thought they are not.

 

[Butch5]

It's not speaking of singular people, I'm sorry. It's also written in song and poetry stance. The form of it, the meter of it, the syllables of it are like a miniature psalm.

DRS81, It's a letter to Timothy.

This is what I was talking about.

 

[DRS81]

DRS81, It's a letter to Timothy.

Correct, but these were letters to the church as a whole. Timothy ministered also to Jewish Christians in the churches. Paul wrote to Timothy to encourage him in his responsibility for overseeing the work of the Ephesian church and possibly the other churches in the province of Asia (1 Timothy 1:3). This letter lays the foundation for ordaining elders (1 Timothy 3:1-7), and provides guidance for ordaining people into offices of the church (1 Timothy 3:8-13). In essence, 1 Timothy is a leadership manual for church organization and administration.

 

[chessman]

Do relationships end? ... Being made a partaker of Christ doesn't mean one will always be a partaker of Christ, the statement is conditional.



I think I see one issue that is causing confusion, that is the Heavenly rest. But I 'd like to stay were we are the moment and clarify the rest. I am referring to chapter 4 verse 1
...

What is this rest?

Hebrews 4:1 (LEB) Therefore let us fear, while there remains a promise of entering into his rest, that none of you appear to fall short of it.​

In this verse, sure, Hebrews means by "His rest" as in the New Kingdom, New Jerusalem, New -Salem, New- peace. That's why I wasn't sure which rest you meant. Hebrews is obviously making an analogy between a future rest to the rest of the promised land that housed Israel (historically) for all those years. (Not exactly peacefully, BTW, then or now). Only brief periods of peace that matched with their seldom periods of proper worship, amazingly. I wonder why! The history of wars and change in control over Jerusalem (city of God's peace) is rather astounding. There's no other city like it.

I have no problem fearing now either, while I wait. Not my salvation, but my Father's discipline sure. I know what God's discipline can do to me as evidenced by those that died in the wilderness, etc. And I know what He's promised me as well. And I know what He's told me I posses already. And I know the partnership he's given me.

I, as a Son and partner with Christ, am holding to a promise of God's in the future and a Possession, Seal and Guarantee. So acting like a non-son (a Hell-raiser and idolator) certainly appears to fall short of my role, sure. I'd expect loving discipline from my Father, training me in the right way too. Yet a divorce??? God hates divorce. No way. Again, I do not disagree with Heb 4:1.

Is there another verse in there that you think proves anti-OSAS? I don't get it.

 

[JLB]

Correct, and once you believe there is no going back. You are his forever.

Please post the scripture for this misconception.


JLB