Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[DRS81]

An unbeliever who never believed and an unbeliever who once believed are both classified as unbelievers.

Incorrect. A born again christian who does not believe is stating that he does not trust God's promises. An atheist who does not believe is stating that he does not believe in a God deity. There is a world of difference my friend. It is impossible for a born again christian to go back to believing that there is no God deity. You understand?

 

[FreeGrace]

An unbeliever who never believed and an unbeliever who once believed are both classified as unbelievers.

This is only an opinion. One who has believed HAS eternal life. There are NO verses that warn of LOSS of eternal life.

Luke 8:13 clearly states - who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

OSAS SAYS THAT THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE!

No, I sure don't say that. Of course believers may cease to believe. We have some examples. Charles Templeton was an evangelist who mentored Billy Graham whe he got his start. Yet, over the years, he couldn't accept some things in the OT, and finally decided that God didn't exist. I believe he died as an agnostic. He clearly lost his faith.

Unless you can show from the scriptures that when someone who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is still somehow a believer, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is they are now unbelievers.

Aren't you paying attention? All who have believed have been BORN AGAIN. How can one become UNborn again? Please advise.

Why does this seem so difficult to understand?

JLB

My question to you, brother.

 

[DRS81]

Bingo!! Thanks. There is NO WAY one who possesses eternal LIFE can end up in the second DEATH.

I wonder why these guys can't or won't see this.

It is a mystery. I was always baffled by the mystery. The devil's hard at work.

 

[chessman]

It doesn't matter what the ISBE says. The word simply means to choose. How do you have categories of. to choose? The problem is that people want to make these big elaborate systems out of simple words, it's done with batpsizo, eklectos, proorizo, proginosko, etc. These were simple everyday words that the people of the NT used. It's theologians who have turned these simple everyday words into these big theological concepts and added a ton of baggage to them. The word Eklectos simply means to choose. It wasn't some theological concept to first century Christians.

Iēsou and Christō were everyday words too. I don't see any anti-OSAS evidence to your point. The issue is Who is doing the choosing and when He did it and to what end, which are determined by the context.

 

[JLB]

Incorrect. A born again christian who does not believe is stating that he does not trust God's promises. An atheist who does not believe is stating that he does not believe in a God deity. There is a world of difference my friend. It is impossible for a born again christian to go back to believing that there is no God deity. You understand?

The promise of salvation is given to those who believe.

If you no longer believe, then you no longer are granted the promise of salvation.

Believe for a while, is believing temporarily.

Believing to the end, is believe permanently.

I just don't see where this is debatable?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

The promise of salvation is given to those who believe.

If you no longer believe, then you no longer are granted the promise of salvation.

Believe for a while, is believing temporarily.

Believing to the end, is believe permanently.

I just don't see where this is debatable?


JLB

But that's where you seem to be stuck. Believing in a God deity vs God's promises for your life are two sides of the coin.

 

[DRS81]

JLB I don't believe that God will find me a wife. Not believing that doesn't mean the holy spirit has departed from me. No, it's the opposite. God will discipline me. Heb 12:4-13. God will work with me and convict and help me and guide me to this understanding that I do need a wife. But he doesn't depart from you because you have trust issues. That's not the character of God.

 

[Eugene]

I am. I know because God has promised to give eternal life to those who believe in His Son (Jn 6:40).

All who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ have BECOME a child of God (Jn 1:12, Rom 8:17).

How can one who has received eternal LIFE enter into the second DEATH? That is impossible.

Yep. We're all sinners, even though we are new creatures. But since Christ died for ALL sins, sin cannot be an issue for entering heaven. Why people think so always amazes me.

Praise God Brother FreeGrace, and it appears you know what the word "ETERNAL" means. That reminds me of Pilgrim in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

"Then said Evangelist, “Keep that light in your eye, and go up directly thereto, so shalt thou see the gate; at which, when thou knockest, it shall be told thee what thou shalt do.” So I saw in my dream that the man began to run. Now he
had not run far from his own door when his wife and children, perceiving it, began to cry after him to return; but the man put his fingers in his ears, and ran on crying, Life! life! eternal life!"

I think above all things, that not being able to know that God's promises to me were true, and dependent on my faithfulness would near scare me to death. Thank You Father in Jesus' name for the everlasting life we have in Christ.

 

[Butch5]

If you think that Scripture(s) describing folks losing their salvation is “all over the bible” then why have they not been posts so far? Regardless, you should post the verse(s) that's your absolute clearest Scripture that describes a saved person losing their salvation. It's not been posted yet (I've studied every Scriptural reference so far). And you've made no conclusive or logical case for it using Hebrews 3-4 either. As I said, logically speaking, if you desire to use Heb 3:12’s “falling away from the living God” and/or “harden your hearts as in rebellion”, etc. as if Hebrews meant these as synonyms for “losing salvation”. You simply must explain (if you’re going to be convincing here) why it is that Moses and Aaron didn’t enter His land rest along with the rest of them in that generation that were disobedient.

But even more fundamental, again, it seems rather obvious and a glaring reason that Heb 3-4 is even being considered as a ‘losing your salvation’ passage is the utter lack of any verses is the Bible that comes right out and says “You will lose your salvation if you do X,Y or Z (enough times or once or whatever)”. When you say “it’s all over the bible”, it only makes your case look weaker to point out a passage that really doesn’t say it.

Frankly, I cannot image a more profound example of God’s patience endurance with some blatantly disobedient children, (including Moses and Aaron at times) yet all the while showing his fatherly disciplining/care (even to the point of causing physical death (the 1st death) and loss of the right to enter the land) to those individuals that needed it than the account of Israeli’s Exodus and time in the desert/wilderness.

I've already posted several Chessman, they just get explained away. I've said several times already that logic get tossed out the window when it comes to this subject. People will do anything to the Scriptures in order to support this doctrine

You say you “addressed this with Agua” and you consider them (Moses/Aaron) “not part” of those that Hebrews spoke of dying in the wilderness. Not really very convincingly have you addressed it (and yes, I’ve read your responses), to be frank. It seems you’ve stated that’s your opinion (which is fine of course) but I don’t see any Biblical evidence for your thoughts about Moses/Aaron being excluded. And what’s more is that there’s much evidence against that view. In my opinion you’ve not addressed the fact that Moses would be considered a “father” to the Hebrews having shared an ancient apostolic message (The OT Pentateuch) to the Jews reading the NT Hebrews Epistle and Aaron considered their former high priest (their first one) and then Heb 3 beginning the comparison of their house to Jesus’ House (apostle by Him and Priested by Him). Yet we have Moses being disobedient to God at times and for goodness sake, Aaron commissioning the making of the golden calf in the wilderness. Then we have the introduction of this whole Exodus/Wilderness/Death/Rest/disobedience example setting up and ending the context of Hebrew’s example with Moses and the high priest office. We are clearly told some of the Israelites (technically all of a certain generation that included Moses/Aaron) dying in the wilderness specifically calling out Moses and mentioning the high priestly office (which implies Aaron), yet showing the superiority of Jesus as an Apostle and High Priest within His House (the Christian church). I know of no reason to somehow exclude Moses/Aaron from those that were disobedient and thusly dying in the wilderness. The whole point of Heb 3-4 and stretching into 10-12 is the point that Jesus is so, so superior to even Moses/Aaron. I.e. Jesus is God.

Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession…7:11 Thus if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, for on the basis of it the people received the law, what further need is there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek and not said to be according to the order of Aaron? … 12:20 For they (that generation) could not endure what was commanded…And the spectacle was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am terrified and trembling.”
Exodus 4:14 And Yahweh was angry with Moses
Hebrews 3:10.Therefore I was angry with this generation,​

Sure, we have Hebrews saying Moses was faithful “in his household” (to his people). But Hebrews also recognizes Moses was disobedient to God (at times) and held unbelief at times. And Aaron, boy was he disobedient.

18 And to whom did he swear they would not enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? 19 And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.​

Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness?​

Did Moses and Aaron enter into his rest or not? No. Were they disobedient? Yes. Were they part of that generation? Yes.
Yes it was those that sinned whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness (including Moses’ and Aaron’s). But you might notice that it says their dead BODIES fell there. I make zero assumptions that that fact implies their final fate is in the Lake of Fire just because they died in the wilderness and didn’t enter his earthly rest (the land). Frankly, it’s rather obvious that not entering his rest cannot logically be a synonym for loss of salvation. It's literally excluded as a possiblity UNLESS you could somehow come up with how Moses and Aaron are not now saved (or somehow exclude them from those that died in the wildernss). You've done neither.

But I have, it's just been rejected as everything else with doctrine. In this passage, God is speaking to Moses and says,

22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice; (Num 14:22 KJV)

Take notice that God didn't say, you and all those men, He said all those men. That excludes Moses from the group. If you want to include Moses and Aaron simply because they sinned, then you also have to include, Joshua and Caleb or claim they were sinless. Either way I believe it present a problem for your position.

 

[Butch5]

Chessman---First you seem to assume what happens IF people are not then steadfast till the end. Guess who was NOT “steadfast till the end” in a literal sesnse? Aaron and Moses!
Second, I believe OSAS because of all the very clear Scriptures that say so (as have been posted here), to include this one.

Heb 3:14 (LEB) For we have become partners of Christ, …​

And boy, what a partner He is.

Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, 2 who was faithful to the one who appointed him

p.s. I'm just wondering out loud here with the following question to the OSAS side of the debate here: Am I the only one that comes away from a fair examination of all these so called here’s how you "lose your salvation" verses (or most often a partial verse/phrase that’s posted from the anti-OSAS side) even more convinced of OSAS than ever? I mean every time, so far, that I look into these passages (like Heb 3-4, 10-12, etc.) I come away even more convinced in OSAS. Take Heb 3-4, for example. Not only does it not say anything about losing one’s salvation and logically exclude the phrase “falling away from the living God” from meaning it, but what’s up with Hebrews calling believers “Holy brothers”, “sharers in a heavenly calling” and a “partner of Christ”? Them’s some awfully strong words for a condition that supposedly believers stand in which supposedly teeters on the edge of destruction daily.​

You speak of partial quotes and then make one. The last part of Hebrews 3:14 is conditional, "if". Being made a partner of Christ is condition on the second clause.

I don't see how you read Heb 3 and 4 and come away more convinced of OSAS. Paul states plainly that there remains a Sabbath for the people of God and tells his readers to be sure that they don't come short of it. That's about as simple as it gets. He equates that Sabbath with God's rest after the days of creation. He calls the rest the seventh day.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to} 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was} 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua} 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath} 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:1 KJV)

Paul calls the rest the seventh day, He said God worked six days and rested on the seventh. Peter referencing David concerning Christ's return said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Paul called the rest the Sabbath, the Sabbath is the seventh day, thus the rest is the seventh day. Since the rest is the seventh day that means there are six prior days and a day with the Lord is as a thousand years thus there are six thousand years before the rest. Also, the seventh day is one thousand years. The millennial reign of Christ is one thousand years that begins at the end of this age. The Seventh day comes after the six prior days, thus the seventh day is the millennial reign of Christ, thus the rest is the millennial reign of Christ, it's the kingdom, salvation.

Additional support for this is found in Genesis.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen 6:3 KJV)

The word translated "years" doesn't necessarily mean a solar year but rather a division of time. God told the Israelites that they were to work 6 days and rest on the seventh and to do this seven times for a total of 49 years. Then He said the fiftieth year was to be a year of Jubilee where all debts were cancle and slaves set free. I contend that the 120 years are 120 Jubilee cycles. 120 times 50 years is 6000 years, or six days.


Since you hold the OSAS position, what is the Rest that Paul speaks of?

 

[Butch5]

JLB or Butch5 There is a difference between the unbelief of the Hebrews and unbelief in an atheist. Do you know what the difference is.

Yes, the atheist claims not to believe that God exists, the unbelief that Paul is speaking of in Hebrews is not trusting God.

 

[DRS81]

Yes, the atheist claims not to believe that God exists, the unbelief that Paul is speaking of in Hebrews is not trusting God.

But those are two separate beliefs Butch. God doesn't leave you because you have trust issues.

 

[Butch5]

Bingo!! Thanks. There is NO WAY one who possesses eternal LIFE can end up in the second DEATH.

I wonder why these guys can't or won't see this.

Because one doesn't possess eternal life yet. Notice what Jesus said, 'those who are worthy to attain that age.' What age? Being sons of the resurrection they die no more. He's not talking about the present. Right now everyone dies Christian and non Christian. Eternal life means they die no more, Christians die now, thus they don't have eternal life.

 

[Butch5]

But those are two separate beliefs Butch. God doesn't leave you because you have trust issues.

It's all about attitude. Jesus said anyone who denied Him would be denied by Him. Was Paul saved?

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2Ti 2:11-12 KJV)

 

[Butch5]

You speak of partial quotes and then make one. The last part of Hebrews 3:14 is conditional, "if". Being made a partner of Christ is condition on the second clause.

I don't see how you read Heb 3 and 4 and come away more convinced of OSAS. Paul states plainly that there remains a Sabbath for the people of God and tells his readers to be sure that they don't come short of it. That's about as simple as it gets. He equates that Sabbath with God's rest after the days of creation. He calls the rest the seventh day.

Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {the word...: Gr. the word of hearing} {not being...: or, because they were not united by faith to} 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: {it was: or, the gospel was} 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua} 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or, keeping of a sabbath} 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Heb 4:1 KJV)

Paul calls the rest the seventh day, He said God worked six days and rested on the seventh. Peter referencing David concerning Christ's return said that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Paul called the rest the Sabbath, the Sabbath is the seventh day, thus the rest is the seventh day. Since the rest is the seventh day that means there are six prior days and a day with the Lord is as a thousand years thus there are six thousand years before the rest. Also, the seventh day is one thousand years. The millennial reign of Christ is one thousand years that begins at the end of this age. The Seventh day comes after the six prior days, thus the seventh day is the millennial reign of Christ, thus the rest is the millennial reign of Christ, it's the kingdom, salvation.

Additional support for this is found in Genesis.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. (Gen 6:3 KJV)

The word translated "years" doesn't necessarily mean a solar year but rather a division of time. God told the Israelites that they were to work 6 days and rest on the seventh and to do this seven times for a total of 49 years. Then He said the fiftieth year was to be a year of Jubilee where all debts were cancle and slaves set free. I contend that the 120 years are 120 Jubilee cycles. 120 times 50 years is 6000 years, or six days.


Since you hold the OSAS position, what is the Rest that Paul speaks of?

This post (1450) should have said, God told the Israelites to work the land for 6 years and let it rest on the seventh.

 

[DRS81]

It's all about attitude. Jesus said anyone who denied Him would be denied by Him. Was Paul saved?

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: (2Ti 2:11-12 KJV)

2 Tim 2:12 is about apostate Jews, not born again christians.

 

[Butch5]

2 Tim 2:12 is about apostate Jews, not born again christians.

Were Paul and Timothy were apostate Jews?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I said this:
The problem of your view is that there are zero verses that tell us that eternal life is conditioned upon continuing in the faith.

"...He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach - 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

The passage is very clear, so what your doctrine does is say the only thing that not continuing in faith does is cause you to be presented NOT holy and blameless before God, insisting that is not a salvation/eternal life issue. But we see in Hebrews that without holiness (sanctification, set apartness) no one will see the Lord:

"14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. " (Hebrews 12:14 NASB)

So, from here, instead of just going with what the plain words say, OSAS adds the words 'in you' to 'no will see the Lord' to keep the passage from meaning the unholy person (the person who did not continue in the faith) will not see the Lord as a result of not continuing in the faith. But we see in Revelation that salvation is very much about seeing the Lord in the holy city, the New Jerusalem:

"3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him; 4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads." (Revelation 22:3-4 NASB)

The New Jerusalem where nothing unholy is allowed in, the unholy things being on the outside of the New Jerusalem:

"23 And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illumined it, and its lamp is the Lamb. 24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. 25 In the daytime (for there will be no night there ) its gates will never be closed; 26 and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it; 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:23-27 NASB)

The place for these unholy people being the lake of fire, not some convenient place of salvation without rewards somewhere in between the kingdom (where holy people see the face of the Lord, not the unholy) and the lake of fire where the unholy get their part:

"7 "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."" (Revelation 21:7-8 NASB)

15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:15 NASB)

I said this:
Actually, I have not redefined "eternal life". It is a free gift (Rom 6:23) that God gives to everyone who has believed in Christ. That IS salvation. Those with eternal life are qualified to live with God eternally (Col 1:12).

Actually, what it says, and which we just read above is you have to be qualified to have eternal life (you can not be unholy), and, thus, live with God eternally, seeing him. And the qualification is sanctifying faith, which continues to the very end. But somehow a lot of people think any qualification whatsoever, even the qualification for a continuing faith, is a works gospel. But no one can produce the scripture that says continuing in faith to be saved is the works gospel the Paul warns about.

What you keep missing is that those who believe BECOME children of God. So explain how a child of God, who possesses eternal life, will end up in the second DEATH, or lake of fire. I can't wait.

You're simply not understanding. By definition, no one in the lake of fire possesses eternal life. They either never had it, or they lost it before they got there through a careless neglect or contempt for the forgiveness they received for their sin debt, and as a result got that sin debt reinstated. Jesus plainly said that's what the kingdom is like.

So…show me already.

Done.

Yes, it does. Because there are NO verses that warn against loss of salvation.

There are, but OSAS makes them not be warnings about loss of salvation, but of only losing various rewards of inheritance. But we saw in the Revelation passages I shared that there is no salvation if there is no reward of inheritance. When one doesn't receive the inheritance they are cast into the lake of fire, not conveniently placed somewhere between the inheritance and the lake of fire.

One can bet their own life on the promise that when a person believes on Christ, they receive eternal life (1 Tim 1:16) and become a child of God (Jn 1:12, Rom 8:17 NIV). There are no verses that negate these things.

Then answer this: How does one get sanctified by the blood of Christ if not by faith in the blood of Christ? The Bible does speak very plainly about saved, 'sanctified by faith in the blood' people losing the only sacrifice for sin that there is and suffering the damnation of the enemies of God.

I don't have mine yet. The Bible tells us when we get it. (hint: not in this life).

But you said we have eternal life--all of it--now. Since nobody but Jesus has a body that lives eternally yet we know salvation does not mean having all of eternal life now. But you insist eternal life is all now and not partial now.

All who have believed receive theirs at the first resurrection. It's all in the Bible.

Like I say, and which you obviously now have to agree with, eternal life is only given in part at this time. But you argued that eternal life is given in full when we believe. I guess your point being that somehow if we have all that eternal life is now that makes it irreversible. It's clear we can dismiss that argument.

 

[DRS81]

Were Paul and Timothy were apostate Jews?

Nope, they were writing too the Jews. Please don't be just another guy taking Hebrews out of context.

 

[Butch5]

Nope, they were writing too the Jews. Please don't be just another guy taking Hebrews out of context.

Paul said, "if we deny Him". "We" means Paul and Timothy.