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Losing Salvation after getting saved?

God will never forsake you, however if you choose to turn away from Him He will let you go.

That would violate a persons free will.

If God would violate a persons free will, then Jesus would have never had to suffer and die on the cross.

Free will.

Checkmate!

Unless you can show a scripture that says God will violate a person's free will and make them stay saved, whereby they no longer have a free will to chose, then you have nothing but hot air.
JLB

And here is the root of your misunderstanding - You think the will of a creature supersedes or triumphs over the will of his Sovereign Creator. That perspective leads one to think that he is a partner in bringing about and sustaining his own salvation.

"So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, 'Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?' Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it , 'Why did You make me like this?' " (Rom 9:18-20 LITV).

"Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?" (Rom 9:21 LITV).

God is sovereign [even] over the will of all men. Who challenges the Creator's right, will, or action over any aspect of His creation?

A man is born again and sustained by the will of God. This is what He proposed and accomplished in Christ. To this, God has put his Seal; and to those who are in Christ Jesus.

- - -

No checkmate; the rules do not permit your last move.
 
God will never forsake you, however if you choose to turn away from Him He will let you go.
Uh, He lets the child rebel, but that does NOT mean loss of salvation. I still do not know where you get your information from.

That would violate a persons free will.
Can a person change their birth parent? Does that violate their free will. Seems Arminians treat free will like it has some kind of power. It doesn't. It is only the option of choice, where choice is available. One cannot change their birth parent. God does not remove salvation nor His child's status just because they rebel.

That's what Heb 12:6 is for; God's discipline for the rebellious child. It does NOT include severing the relationship. The Holy Spirit continues to indwell the believer, regardless of their behavior. Because Jesus PROMISED it.

Unless you can show a scripture that says God will violate a person's free will and make them stay saved, whereby they no longer have a free will to chose, then you have nothing but hot air.
You've given no evidence that salvation can be lost. The warning passages refer to loss of blessing and reward, which is how God disciplines His wayward children.
 
And here is the root of your misunderstanding - You think the will of a creature supersedes or triumphs over the will of his Sovereign Creator. That perspective leads one to think that he is a partner in bringing about and sustaining his own salvation.
:thumbsup

Exactly right!!
 
Angels are created as sons of God, as Adam was.

The way we become sons of God is by being born again.

The result is the same, a son of God.
JLB
Let me be clear. I'm speaking of Regeneration, NOT generation. Please don't miss that significance. Your point is not taken.

The Bible is clear about believers BECOMING a child of God through FAITH, not by creation.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right tobecome children of God, even to those who believe in His name

That's what I'm talking about.
 
Yes, I know that. I made that point myself in this thread. When we have faith in Christ and are saved we are set apart for a holy purpose. Faith not only justifies. Faith also sanctifies. At least it should. If you don't allow it to, you will be among the damned who are cast into the lake of fire.
How does one "allow it to", or not, for that matter? You've put a whole lot of criteria on salvation that the Bible never teaches.

Sanctification happens because you have faith in Christ. Sanctified people are people who have faith in Christ:

"...the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'" (Acts 26:17-18 NASB)

Sanctification is not based on me or my actions. God does it, the moment one believes. And there are no verses about being UNsanctified, just as there aren't any verses about being Unsaved.


It's impossible that vs. 26 is just a reiteration of vs. 18. If it is then vs. 26 is saying that if we go on willfully sinning then there is no more need for a sacrifice for sin, but at the same time it says I can expect the fiery judgment of the damned for that willful sin, which does need a sacrifice to avoid. What kind of sense does that make?
You've made it nonsensical. The point is that Christ WAS the sacrifice for ALL sin. So sin cannot be an issue in salvation. In fact, sin is NEVER an issue in salvation. Because Christ paid the price for it.

But it makes perfect sense to simply read it for what it plainly says:

"26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB emphasis in original)
It is an assumption to conclude that "fire" here means hell. When hell is in view, we find descriptive words like "eternal". IE: Matt 18:8, 25:41 and Jude 7.

Further, the word "consume" should be a hint for you. No one is consumed in hell. Remember, it's where "their worm never dies". Mk 9:44, 46, 48.

[/QUOTE]If you keep on willfully sinning after you get saved (the text says they are saved) then you don't have a sacrifice for sin left to protect you and you will be damned with the enemies of God.[/quote]
Your "interpretation" is wrong. Their problem was that they were returning to the Law and its sacrifices.

Let's start being honest. Let's just read the words for what they plainly say and stop itching the ears of fallen flesh that wants willful, Christ rejecting sin forgiven no matter what. Grace is not the freedom to willfully sin with impunity.
I've NEVER said that any believer will get away with willful sin. I've ALWAYS emphasized that such a believer will face the hand of discipline of God, and I've given verses to back that up.

So, yes, let's start being honest here. You have NOT YET provided any verse that actually says that one's salvation can be lost. That is only an assumption and an opinion. There is NO Scriptural basis for it. You're not connecting the dots correctly.

Right, these believing, sanctified, even fruitful Hebrews are being warned not to deny Christ and suffer the fate of the damned for doing so. For some reason OSAS allows blood Jews in the day of the Apostles to be the only believers who are damned for turning away from Christ and back to the law. It's a curious bug in the OSAS program.
There is no "curious bug" in my understanding of eternal security. I don't "allow blood Jews" anything.

Once born again, ALWAYS born again. And no one who has been born again will be condemned.
 
I’ve not assumed it, the word “lest” tells us what is to be feared, it connects the fear and what is to be feared.
Not really.

'Freeze, lest I shoot you'. The object of fear is clear. It's connected.
'Freeze, I'll shoot you! The object of fear is clear.
'Freeze!' Not so clear.

Plus, In my opinion, the KJV is substantially different than the rest. Notice how It's placement changes in the NKJV more in line with the point.

Hebrews 4:1 (NKJV) Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

As I pointed out, the reason for our fear is so that you don't seem to have come short. Your evidence here is lacking any merit.

Hebrews 4:1 (KJV) _____Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

The point is; there's a substantial and very real difference. The KJV is unclear about what to fear or why. If anything, it tells us to fear the promise. Which seems wrong. Plus it rearranges the conjugate that literally does tie this verse back to the examples of discipline in chapter 3.

Hebrews 4:1 (ESV) Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear ____ lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it.

Or

Hebrews 4:1 (LEB) Therefore let us fear, while there remains a promise of entering into his rest, that none of you appear to fall short of it.

Plus none actually say what should be feared in verse 1 but all tie the fear back to the authors previous point. They say why fear is important; "so that none of you appear to fall short".
That ain't loss of salvation.


It’s perfectly logical, one can have a promise but not meet the conditions of that promise and thus not receive that promise. I could promise you $10 if you came to my house, however, if you didn’t come to my house you have fallen short of the promise and do not receive it.
You describe an offer, not a promise. You could offer me $10 to come over. If I did, you owe me $10. If I didn't, you owe me nothing. That's different than promises of eternal life for believing in Christ.

Regarding the “partner” which is Christ, there is something you need to think about in Heb 3:14. The second clause is conditional, but what’s interesting about this that the “Ginomai” translated “made” in the first clause is in the perfect tense. What that means is that, “made”, a past completed action whose results continue to the present (time of writing) is contingent on a future event. Logically this seems impossible. How can a past completed event be contingent on a future action? Yet, that is what the grammar indicates. In order to reconcile this it seems to me (and I’m checking further) that what Paul is saying, is that if we continue steadfast to the end, then God counts all of our Christian life as from the beginning.
.
You check it out and explain how Paul has God "counting all of our life" toward our salvation.

Here I would suggest a more in depth look at the Greek word. I can have other meanings and is translated differently in some translations.
Okay.


-But discipline’s not in view in the passage.
it's not in view if you ignore the "therefore" in the verse.


The point is that God did divorce Israel, yes He does cal them to return and yes He does say He’s married to them. However, He’s married to them as a people, those who don’t repent are outside of the covenant. So, as a people He is married to them yes as individuals who have placed themselves outside of the covenant He is not.

A married divorced person. Now that's a trick. See!!!
 
Not at all, you just highlighted the wrong definitions.
There was nothing "wrong" about the definitions.

If look at what I said, I said, in the sense of a down payment. Here is the definition that you didn't highlight,

1.To assume responsibility for the debt, default, or miscarriage of
Can you prove the word was used as a trasitive verb? That's the ONLY way it is the definition that you prefer.

Come on man, just because something doesn't agree with you doesn't mean it's not there.
I'm waiting for someone to show me what's actually there. So far, I haven't seen ANYTHING that teaches that one can lose their salvation. I DO, however, find passages that indicate that the one who has been born again cannot come under condemnation.
 
Brother,

How many times does this point need to be made.

It's not a question that God will leave you!

It's about a person who LEAVES GOD!

A person who TURNS AWAY from God.

A person who FALLS AWAY from God!

A person who exercises their free will to turn to another god.
JLB
Why should any of this equal loss of salvation? There is no rational reason.

Jesus gave us an excellent example of such a son who actually did leave the Father, turned away. Yet, he remained a son throughout. The "death" spoken of referred to fellowship, NOT loss of salvation.

The problem continues to be the huge amount of assumption by your view.
 
Brother,

The point of the scripture you quoted is Love.

Nothing will separate us from the love of God.

Because God loves us does not mean were are garaunteed to be saved, as God loves the world.
JLB
You seriously do not understand God's love then. Nor His grace. Very sad.
 
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

God chose us before the foundation of the world to walk in the good works He has.

Unfortunately many, through false teaching, will refuse those works and instead live a carnal lifestyle of walking in the flesh.

They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. Titus 1;16

No works. No faith.

No faith. No salvation.

No faith, no pleasing God.

Believe for a while = saved for a while.

Believe for a while = unbelief.
JLB
Just opinion. No substantiation from Scripture.
 
JLB how do you sleep at night knowing you could go to hell at any moment. how do you sleep knowing your salvation isn't secure.
I think he's depending heavily on his own faith to save him. At least that's how I'm reading him.

Eternal security puts all the faith in God's promises, not a requirement for me in any way. I know that offends those who claim that salvation can be lost. But they just do not understand grace.
 
My Salvation is secure, because my faith continues everyday.
yep, just as I thought. He'd depending heavily upon his own faith.

If I quit believing in Jesus Christ and fall away, then my salvation would not be secure, because I have become an unbeliever.
So It's really all on you, then. Not me. I am totally depending upon the finished work of Christ, who paid for ALL my sins.

Unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire.
They NEVER believed and therefore NEVER received eternal life.

No one has yet to explain how ETERNAL LIFE will end up in the second DEATH. Please explain that conundrum to me.
 
Nobody obtains salvation until the end of their, when they have remained steadfast until the end.
Yep. You're still depending upon YOU for your salvation.

THE END OF YOUR FAITH IS THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOUL!

Not the beginning of your faith, but the end of your faith. 1 Peter 1:9
JLB
This doesn't mean the "end of your life". It means the "goal" or purpose of your faith.
 
My Salvation is secure, because my faith continues everyday.
One more thought. If your salvation depends on continued faith, the foundation is shaky. No one can predict the future, or know what the future brings. The 2nd soil sure didn't. Which is WHY we have the promise of Rom 8:38, "neither the present, nor the future…can separate us from the love of Christ". Amen.

If I quit believing in Jesus Christ and fall away, then my salvation would not be secure, because I have become an unbeliever.
No, you are still born again, still justified, still saved. Just an apostate, and will face God's discipline, which ain't purty.

Unbelievers have their part in the lake of fire.
Yes, and those who have been born again with ETERNAL LIFE cannot go there.
 
And here is the root of your misunderstanding - You think the will of a creature supersedes or triumphs over the will of his Sovereign Creator. That perspective leads one to think that he is a partner in bringing about and sustaining his own salvation.

"So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, 'Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?' Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it , 'Why did You make me like this?' " (Rom 9:18-20 LITV).

"Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?" (Rom 9:21 LITV).

God is sovereign [even] over the will of all men. Who challenges the Creator's right, will, or action over any aspect of His creation?

A man is born again and sustained by the will of God. This is what He proposed and accomplished in Christ. To this, God has put his Seal; and to those who are in Christ Jesus.

- - -

No checkmate; the rules do not permit your last move.

I don't assume to think any such thing, so please keep your presumptuous comments to your self.

I just simply let the scriptures speak for themselves.

If you refuse what the scripture teaches then that's between you and God.


JLB
 
One more thought. If your salvation depends on continued faith, the foundation is shaky. No one can predict the future, or know what the future brings. The 2nd soil sure didn't. Which is WHY we have the promise of Rom 8:38, "neither the present, nor the future…can separate us from the love of Christ". Amen.


No, you are still born again, still justified, still saved. Just an apostate, and will face God's discipline, which ain't purty.


Yes, and those who have been born again with ETERNAL LIFE cannot go there.

If you can show a scripture that says a person who believes for a while, then falls away is still saved, then you will have a valid point, if you can not, then you have a man made Gospel.

No scripture, No truth.

No tickee, No laundry.

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2


JLB
 
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