Losing Salvation after getting saved?

[Jethro Bodine]

When the Giver offers the gift, it is already COMPLETE, so the giftee has no part in the gift. All he can do it receive it.

And the unmerciful servant had the gift that he received taken away from him because of contempt for that gift. Jesus said this is like how the kingdom is. The heavenly Father will do that to each of us if we also show contempt and ingratitude for the free gift.

 

[JLB]

to the non-OSAS'ers,

Why not answer or argue against the post above? Are you ignoring it because it disagrees with non-OSAS doctrine?

Acts 16:31 presents a massive hole in your doctrine.

Probably the biggest hole there is in the OSAS doctrine is the English word believe.

The primary meaning of this word is obey. You show you believe by obeying.

You show you believe Jesus is Lord by obeying the Gospel.

This obedience to the King and His kingdom never ends.

The second hole in the OSAS doctrine is the meaning of the Gospel itself.

You choose to turn away from Satan as your Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord.

Lord means Master.

Jesus said - why do you call Me Lord, yet you don't do what I say.

The common denominator in these two holes is obedience.

A person that bows his knee to Jesus then later turns back to serving his old lord has disobeyed the Gospel.

Look at the scripture pertaining to this.

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

...those who do not know God - UNBELIEVERS WHO HAVE NEVER BELIEVED!


...and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. - those who have DISOBEYED.

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN DISOBEDIENCE AND UNBELIEF IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK.


6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must entertherein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

No difference!


JLB

 

[JLB]

Interesting question. If I've read the passages on this right, God knows those who he will call to find their way to Christ Jesus. Salvation is a gift of grace from God. The sheep whom God calls know Jesus and he knows their name.
That tells me that God knew everything about the sheep whom he would afford his grace before hand. And when Jesus says no one will snatch those who are saved from his hand I don't think anyone whom God put there by his divine eternal grace filled choice can demonstrate a will to leave that God wouldn't have foresaw. And he wouldn't call them if he knew they were going to be ungrateful and throw away the Gift.

Hi, thanks for sharing your opinion with us.

God Bless you, and WELCOME.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, the irony in some of your statements.

'Believe [aorist active imperative] on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved [future passive indicative]' (Act 16:31 LITV).

Believe is in the present tense and actively remains ever present because it is always NOW.

Now faith is...

If faith is not present and active then it is not faith.

Obedience is the word you really need to ascribe to the word believe.

Then you would see just how incomplete your doctrine really is.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You are diverting the conversation.

First explain 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved.'

Believe, Trust and Obey The Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

There's all the explaining you will ever need.


JLB

 

[Edward]

That's not what Jesus taught in the parable of the unmerciful servant in Matthew 18:23-35 NASB. In that parable--which Jesus said illustrates how the kingdom is--the king really did have mercy on the servant because he begged him to. But later, when the king saw that the servant was an ingrate he withdrew his mercy and reinstated his debt. Jesus said that the Heavenly Father will treat each of us the same way who does what the servant in the parable did.

Hey, what's the big idea, coming right to the point? :wink

What you say is true brother, and if it wasn't, those scriptures (previously posted!) which speak of having ones name blotted out of the Book of Life would not be there.

 

[FreeGrace]

4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"? 6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says: "God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble." 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded...Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 4:4-8, 5:19-20

James is clearly calling these Christians, Idolaters!

Yep. Some are. Just like in the OT. Where in this passage is there any specific wording that tells me that one can lose their salvation based on either sin or loss of faith?

Seems your view is that salvation can be lost either by the sins that shock you, or loss of faith. Is is both, in your view?

If so, why aren't there any passages that "plainly say" that?

James rebuked the Christians in order to get them to turn back to God.

Yes, of course. Again, nothing about loss of salvation.

His final words in his letter, should be an Anthem for us today in America.

These words were spoken to Christians who were committing adultery with the world.

if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

I've explained this already, but am willing to help you understand this. The Greek word for "soul" was used then for a human being. And turning a sinner from sinning is NOT how one gets salvation. So your understanding of this verse is wrong.

If we love God and love His people, we should do our best to turn back those who have wandered from the truth...in doing this act, we will cover a multitude of sins, which is love language.

Yes, that was James' point.

For love covers a multitude of sins.

...save a soul from death

Or, to save a believer's life from the sin unto death (God's ultimate discipline for His wayward children).

We will all die a natural death, so this is a clear reference to eternal death in the fires of hell.

Not hardly. 1 Jn 5:16 plainly speaks of the sin unto death in reference to believers. God does take some of His children home early, because of their lifestyle. There is NO mention of eternal death or fires of hell in James, so your mentioning it is totally out of context. Which is the only way you can try to defend your position.

And you completely ignored post 1941.

 

[JLB]

Yep. Some are. Just like in the OT. Where in this passage is there any specific wording that tells me that one can lose their salvation based on either sin or loss of faith?

Seems your view is that salvation can be lost either by the sins that shock you, or loss of faith. Is is both, in your view?

If so, why aren't there any passages that "plainly say" that?


Yes, of course. Again, nothing about loss of salvation.


I've explained this already, but am willing to help you understand this. The Greek word for "soul" was used then for a human being. And turning a sinner from sinning is NOT how one gets salvation. So your understanding of this verse is wrong.


Yes, that was James' point.


Or, to save a believer's life from the sin unto death (God's ultimate discipline for His wayward children).


Not hardly. 1 Jn 5:16 plainly speaks of the sin unto death in reference to believers. God does take some of His children home early, because of their lifestyle. There is NO mention of eternal death or fires of hell in James, so your mentioning it is totally out of context. Which is the only way you can try to defend your position.

And you completely ignored post 1941.

The phrase save a soul from death, indicates to all that the soul is in danger of death.

Clearly the second death.


JLB

 

[Danus]

Question: for those of you who believe you can loose your salvation, who do you trust to ensure you don't loose it?

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

Not hardly. 1 Jn 5:16 plainly speaks of the sin unto death in reference to believers. God does take some of His children home early, because of their lifestyle. There is NO mention of eternal death or fires of hell in James, so your mentioning it is totally out of context. Which is the only way you can try to defend your position.

16 If anyman see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask , and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 Allunrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 1 John 5:16

There is only one sin mentioned, that is unto death.

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

John says don't bother praying for the person who is guilty of this sin.

That sin is a one way ticket to hell, with no forgiveness.


Nice try.


James says saves a soul from death.

 

[JLB]

Question: for those of you who believe you can loose your salvation, who do you trust to ensure you don't loose it?

We trust in our Savior steadfast to the end.

 

[FreeGrace]

Brother there are 2 sets of people standing before Jesus Christ when He returns:
One group inherits the kingdom.
The other group does not.
Those that do not inherit the kingdom are sentenced to the everlasting fires of hell.
That's it.

No, that's not even close to "it".

No explaining away these verse's.

Please pay attention this time.

Inherit the kingdom or Hell.

You've conflated separate issues, and your conclusions are just false.

At the Bema, or Judgment Seat of Christ, ONLY believers will be there. And that is where they will either receive their reward, or realize their LOSS of eternal reward:
New American Standard Bible
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

The "good" refer to reward, and the "bad" refers to LOSS of reward.

At the Great White Throne Judgment, ONLY unbelievers (those who never have believed) will be there. And the "books that will be opened" refer to all the deeds they did while on earth, and will be the basis for how "tolerable" it will be for them in eternity. We absolutely do know that Jesus made is plainly clear that it will be "more tolerable" for some than for others.
Matt 10:15, 11:22, 24, Mk 6:11, Luke 10:12, 14 KJV.

However, they will be cast into the lake of fire because their names were not in the book of (eternal) life. Why did they not have eternal life? Because they never believed.

Only those who have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation receive eternal life.

Paul stated that those Christians who practice the works of the flesh WIL NOT, WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM.

Will not, will not, will not. Yep. That's exactly what he said. Now, the question to you is this: what makes you ASSUME that to inherit means to get in? Please explain yourself, and it would be helpful to use Scripture.

btw, it is clear from Paul's 3 passages on not inheriting the kingdom that this loss of inheritance is based solely on sins.

So, please explain how anyone's sins will keep them from entering heaven, since we're all sinners?

(Removed, response to deleted comment. Obadiah)

Inheriting the kingdom means one thing - everlasting life with God.

No, it doesn't. All of God's children are heirs of God, per Rom 8:17a. Yet, ONLY those who have "suffered with Christ" will be co-heirs with Him, per Rom 8:17b.

I have already explained the 2 different inheritances in post 1941, and you have ignored it.

Not inheriting the kingdom means one thing - everlasting punishment in hell apart from God.

It means loss of reward IN the kingdom, not failure to enter the kingdom.

One thing is clear from your posts; you believe that salvation can be lost by sin, not just loss of faith. So please explain HOW that can be since Christ died for all sin of all people. Unless you don't believe that He did die for everyone.

No where in scripture is the term inherit the kingdom used to signify rewards

Your opinion, again.

In the places this phrase is listed, it only means eternal life with Jesus Christ.
JLB

Your opinion, again.

I explained the 2 different inheritances in post 1941 and you failed to refute any of my points. In fact, you basically ignored the entire post.

If I'm wrong, it should be easy to refute my errors. But neither you nor anyone else has even tried to do that. All I see are opinions, based on assumptions about verses that do not SAY what you claim they MEAN.

 

[FreeGrace]

We must look all these things in the totality of the scriptures. And when we do that we understand that salvation is something more than belief.

Sadly, you've conflated getting saved with spiritual growth. No wonder there is so much misunderstanding of Scripture.

to the non-OSAS'ers,

Why not answer or argue against the post above? Are you ignoring it because it disagrees with non-OSAS doctrine?

Acts 16:31 presents a massive hole in your doctrine.

It's clear to me that they have to ignore many posts. I've challenged them on a number of things, and they just ignore all of it, rather than try to refute them, or prove them wrong.

Which says a whole lot.

 

[FreeGrace]

How many times do we have to tell you that we believe that you are saved when you first believe. The problem is you have been indoctrinated to automatically hear the word 'saved' as meaning irreversibly saved.

Primarily because there are NO verses that SAY that our salvation can be lost. Any more questions?

Non-OSAS simply says you are saved right when you believe, but that you must continue to believe to not lose what you presently have, and what is yet to come. We say it because the plain words of the Bible say that.

I suggest you start reading JLB's posts. He's added "sinful lifestyle" as among those things that will get your salvation revoked.

 

[FreeGrace]

Acts 16:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

you have left out ............and thy house. Please explain how the household gets saved when only one person of that family gets saved? therefore your argument is demolished

The same way as the jailer himself; by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. That should have been self evident.

 

[FreeGrace]

So do I. But I also believe the other passages that warn me not to walk out of his hand on my own.

Sure. Of course they are there. By why ASSUME that they refer to loss of salvation, when that isn't STATED either there, or anywhere else, for that matter?

You've been given plenty of explanation for why those warning passages are about loss of blessing and reward, not loss of salvation. And they haven't been refuted. No one has even tried to. Y'all just keep repeating yourselves.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
When the Giver offers the gift, it is already COMPLETE, so the giftee has no part in the gift. All he can do it receive it.

And the unmerciful servant had the gift that he received taken away from him because of contempt for that gift.

OK, please show me any verse that actually indicates that salvation can be taken away.

Jesus said this is like how the kingdom is. The heavenly Father will do that to each of us if we also show contempt and ingratitude for the free gift.

If you're going to cite something from Scripture, please provide the source, so that it can be looked up and the context examined, in order to determine whether or not one has taken a verse out of context. Thanks.

 

[Danus]

We trust in our Savior steadfast to the end.

We trust in our Savior steadfast to the end.

Right, so if you trust Jesus to the end, & not in yourself. Why would you fear loosing your salvation?
Jesus is the one keeping you, not you. You trust in Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

Probably the biggest hole there is in the OSAS doctrine is the English word believe.

The primary meaning of this word is obey. You show you believe by obeying.

Please provide some evidence for this? In fact, the Greek word "pisteuo" means exactly how it is translated; believe. The word you are thinking of is pietho, a different word.

For example, in John 3:36, we find the negative of "pietho":
apeitheō
1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

You show you believe Jesus is Lord by obeying the Gospel.

Yes, of course. But where are the verses that "plainly say" that salvation can be lost. And, please, no ASSUMPTIONS.

This obedience to the King and His kingdom never ends.

Please cite your source, if that is Biblical.

The second hole in the OSAS doctrine is the meaning of the Gospel itself.
You choose to turn away from Satan as your Lord, and confess Jesus as Lord.
Lord means Master.
Jesus said - why do you call Me Lord, yet you don't do what I say.
The common denominator in these two holes is obedience.
A person that bows his knee to Jesus then later turns back to serving his old lord has disobeyed the Gospel.
Look at the scripture pertaining to this.
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8

...those who do not know God - UNBELIEVERS WHO HAVE NEVER BELIEVED!
...and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. - those who have DISOBEYED.
THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE IN DISOBEDIENCE AND UNBELIEF IN THE ORIGINAL GREEK.

This is from Strong's Exhaustive Concordance re: 2 Thess 1:8 -
G5395 fireG4442 takingG1325 vengeanceG1557 on them that knowG1492 not GodG2316, and that obeyG5219 not the gospelG2098 of our LordG2962 JesusG2424 ChristG5547:

Your claim about the difference is just an opinion. Strong's uses the KJV, (Edited, this forum does not endorse any "preferred translation" of the Bible. Obadiah)

I'll spell it out for you: "taking vengeance on them that know not God AND that obey not the gospel". Your assumption that there are 2 kinds of people here is wrong. There is only one kind: those who have never believed the gospel.

"them that know not God and that obey not the gospel". iow, they neither know God nor obey the gospel.

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Cool. Where is Moses today? He didn't enter the promised land.

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must entertherein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Cool. Where is Moses today? He didn't enter the promised land.

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe is in the present tense and actively remains ever present because it is always NOW.

Not in Acts 16:31. Please research it. These kinds of errors doesn't help your cause.

btw, interestingly, Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12, in reference to those who didn't believe the gospel, and therefore, weren't saved. Yet, in v.13, He used the present tense for "believe", and He added "for a while" and then "fell away". (Edited, ToS 2.4, insulting comment. Obadiah.)

Point being; your claim is in error.