Luke 21:20-24 and 70 A.D.

[GodIsMySavior]

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may be seeing the Jerusalem surrounded by war-troops, then be knowing that nigh the desolating/ἐρήμωσις<2050> of Her
24 “And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. [Revelation 13:10]
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” [Revelation 11:2]

And there is Luke 19 affirming those verses:

Luke 19:
43 That shall be arriving<2240> days upon Thee, and Thy enemies shall be casting about<4016> a rampart/siege-work<5482> to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee, and pressing Thee from-every-side.
44 And shall be leveling Thee and Thy offspring in Thee, and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee, stead which not Thou knew the season of the visitation<1984> of Thee".
=================================
A great commentary on Josephus' war of the Jews leading up to70ad. Coincidentally, Titus sieged Jerusalem on the Passover and why the slaughter of Jews was close to 1 million.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ;.................................

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !..........................
=================================

That’s the great tribulation being spoken of by the Lord just before His coming.
JLB

Hello JLB.
While translating and harmonizing the Olivet Discourse, I noticed some words and phrases used in Luke's version that are not found in Matt or Mark' versions.

For instance, Luke's version never uses the word "tribulation", but rather "distress and wrath". Dan 12 uses "distress" and "escape", as does Luke 21:23, 29

Daniel 12:1 "In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one standing over sons of thy people.
And a time of distress<06869>, which not ocourred since to become of a Nation, until that time.
And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, every one being found being written in scroll

Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those the days
Mark 13:17
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those the days

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69> in every season<2540>, beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about<3195> to be becoming and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]

Jesus refers to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" concerning that future 70ad event

Luke 23:
28 Being-turned yet toward them, the Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones. and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suck.
[Luke 21:29]
=========================
Josephus writes about that in his "War of the Jews" chronicles....

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal.......................
======================
If you count the fall of Masada in 73ad, the great Jewish revolt started in 66ad and technically lasted about 7yrs or so.
None of the NT, or the Apostles mentions this as having occurred.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com,

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68

Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

 

[for_his_glory]

(Dan. 9:26) speaks of the 69th week and the destruction of the Temple which will occur in 70 A.D.

(Dan. 9:27) is speaking of the 70th week, which is the more future event of the Tribulation. It is at this time that the abomination is set up in the Temple. Not in the Temple of 70 A.D. It is concerning this time that (Matt. 24:15) gives the warning.

(Luke 21:20), however gives no such warning concerning the abomination. His warning is the surrounding armies. Why? Because no abomination is found in the Temple in 70 A.D. Thus (Dan. 9:27) is not addressing 70 A.D.

It doesn't matter that Jerusalem will be under siege in the last days. I explained it already in post #(1) that two sieges are in view. (Luke 21:20-24) is addressing 70 A.D.

Quantrill

Daniel 9:26; Zechariah 14:1; Matthew 24:15-21; Mark 13:14-19; Luke 21:20-24; Rev 20:7-9 all teach the full context of the abomination that causes desolation in 70AD and also prophetic of the final battle where Satan sends his armies out to the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. This army will try to destroy the temple of God, not a literal temple like the one that was destroyed in 70AD when Jerusalem was attack by the Roman armies and destroyed Jerusalem, but the temple of God being the saints that are now the temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

Luke 21:21-24 foretells the destruction of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as no one is refuting this. Luke is also giving the account of what Jesus said almost word for word in Matthew 24:15-19. Luke 20:24 is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15-19 of the destruction of the Temple of God in 70AD that Daniel prophesied of in Daniel 9:26, 27, but is also prophetic of that which will take place 3 1/2 years before Christ returns being the last abomination that will cause desolation, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13 and of the final battle of Armageddon, Rev 20.


The 70th week (490 prophetic years) begins with the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Ezra 1: 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Messiah is cut-off at the crucifixion which is the 69th week (483 prophetic years). God set aside the wrath that will come in the 70th week (490 prophetic years) and revealed the revelation of the mystery to the apostle John (Revelations) and we will be in that gap between the 69th week and the 70th week until God pours out his wrath upon those who refuse to repent during the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments then will Jesus return and sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His bride to Him.

The command to rebuild Jerusalem was in 457BC. Daniel 9:25 says it took 7 weeks (49 years) to rebuild. This brings us to 408BC.

Daniel says 62 weeks later (434 years) Messiah will arrive. This brings us to 27AD which is the end of week 69 and start of week 70. (408 -343 = 26. Add 1 year for year “0” and you come to 27AD)

Daniel 9:26, 27 says Messiah is cut off and in the midst of week 70th Jesus shall confirm the covenant (grace) and that which is determined (judged) will be that of Gods judgment of those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Quantrill]

Daniel 9:26; Zechariah 14:1; Matthew 24:15-21; Mark 13:14-19; Luke 21:20-24; Rev 20:7-9 all teach the full context of the abomination that causes desolation in 70AD and also prophetic of the final battle where Satan sends his armies out to the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. This army will try to destroy the temple of God, not a literal temple like the one that was destroyed in 70AD when Jerusalem was attack by the Roman armies and destroyed Jerusalem, but the temple of God being the saints that are now the temple of God, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17.

Luke 21:21-24 foretells the destruction of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies as no one is refuting this. Luke is also giving the account of what Jesus said almost word for word in Matthew 24:15-19. Luke 20:24 is the abomination Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:15-19 of the destruction of the Temple of God in 70AD that Daniel prophesied of in Daniel 9:26, 27, but is also prophetic of that which will take place 3 1/2 years before Christ returns being the last abomination that will cause desolation, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13 and of the final battle of Armageddon, Rev 20.


The 70th week (490 prophetic years) begins with the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

Ezra 1: 2 Thus saith Cyrus king of Persia, The LORD God of heaven hath given me all the kingdoms of the earth; and he hath charged me to build him an house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

Messiah is cut-off at the crucifixion which is the 69th week (483 prophetic years). God set aside the wrath that will come in the 70th week (490 prophetic years) and revealed the revelation of the mystery to the apostle John (Revelations) and we will be in that gap between the 69th week and the 70th week until God pours out his wrath upon those who refuse to repent during the seven trumpet and seven vial judgments then will Jesus return and sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His bride to Him.

The command to rebuild Jerusalem was in 457BC. Daniel 9:25 says it took 7 weeks (49 years) to rebuild. This brings us to 408BC.

Daniel says 62 weeks later (434 years) Messiah will arrive. This brings us to 27AD which is the end of week 69 and start of week 70. (408 -343 = 26. Add 1 year for year “0” and you come to 27AD)

Daniel 9:26, 27 says Messiah is cut off and in the midst of week 70th Jesus shall confirm the covenant (grace) and that which is determined (judged) will be that of Gods judgment of those not found written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Well, actually others are disagreeing that (Luke 21:20-24) speaks to 70 A.D. JLB holds that the Olivet Discourse speaks only to the end Tribulation before the Second Coming. You hold to it being about nothing but 70 A.D. Where as I hold that both are addressed.

Understand that we are never going to agree as I am Dispensational in doctrine and you are not. Your entire method of interpreting Scripture is different than mine. That being said I will try and address some of these differences. That we the Church are the Temple of God at this time on earth, I agree. But that is during the time that Israel has been set aside. During the time that Israel is under a judicial blindness. (Rom. 11:25) But God is not finished with Israel. (Jer. 31:35-37) Thus there is no conflict with the Church, the Temple, at present and another Jewish Temple being built.

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel begins with the rebuilding of the Temple. But the 70th week does not. It is yet future, the time called the 7 year Tribulation. Time has stopped with Israel while she is in blindness. While God is building the Church.

I disagree with your interpretation of (Dan. 9:26-27). Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week. "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off'. (26) The one confirming the covenant in (27) is not Messiah. It is the anti-christ. "the prince that shall come" (26) The covenant is not any covenant of God. It is a covenant made with anti-christ.(27) And the anti-christ will break that covenant in the middle of the 70th week. Or, the middle of the Tribulation.

Briefly stated, this is my understanding. I know you disagree but as I said, we interpret from two different systems.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Hello JLB.
While translating and harmonizing the Olivet Discourse, I noticed some words and phrases used in Luke's version that are not found in Matt or Mark' versions.

For instance, Luke's version never uses the word "tribulation", but rather "distress and wrath". Dan 12 uses "distress" and "escape", as does Luke 21:23, 29

Daniel 12:1 "In that time Michael shall stand-up, the chief/prince, the great, the one standing over sons of thy people.
And a time of distress<06869>, which not ocourred since to become of a Nation, until that time.
And in that time, thy people escape<4422>, every one being found being written in scroll

Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those the days
Mark 13:17
Woe yet to those pregnant, and to those giving suck in those the days

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching<69> in every season<2540>, beseeching<1189> that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about<3195> to be becoming and to stand before the Son of the Man.[Daniel 12:1]

Jesus refers to the "Daughters of Jerusalem" concerning that future 70ad event

Luke 23:
28 Being-turned yet toward them, the Jesus said: "Daughters of-Jerusalem no be-lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.
29 That behold! Are coming Days in which they shall be declaring 'happy are the barren-ones. and the wombs which not generate, and breasts which not suck.
[Luke 21:29]
=========================
Josephus writes about that in his "War of the Jews" chronicles....

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal.......................
======================
If you count the fall of Masada in 73ad, the great Jewish revolt started in 66ad and technically lasted about 7yrs or so.
None of the NT, or the Apostles mentions this as having occurred.

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com,

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68

Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

Thanks for your work in this matter.

What’s the point you are wanting to make?


My desire is to show people that Jesus was referring to Zechariah 14 in the Olivet Discourse, as we see His coming, the nations being gathered around Jerusalem, the saints returning with the Lord as well as the “lights”, sun, moon and stars, all referenced in Zechariah 14 just as mentioned in the Olivet Discourse.

These are the things that are coming soon.

Why waste time arguing about what happened in 70AD?

Do you believe Jesus returned in 70AD?

Do you believe the resurrection is past?





JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no captivity at the end of the Tribulation. There is no continuance of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

That is the end in (Luke 21:24).

Quantrill

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

Is the times of the Gentiles over in this passage?


JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zechariah 14:1-2

Is the times of the Gentiles over in this passage?


JLB

No.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

No.

Quantrill

Now you know why you are rejecting the plain truth of the scriptures. You don’t understand what the times of the Gentiles is, or when it ends.


Zechariah 14:1-2 is after the times of the Gentiles, and is at the coming of the Lord.


The mistake you are making in your Luke 21:20-24 narrative, thinking it refers to 70AD is because armies are surrounding Jerusalem you think it is still the times of the Gentiles just because Jerusalem is under attack.

The Temple is rebuilt BECAUSE the times of the Gentiles is over and the 70th week of Daniel has begun.


The Lord returns after the 70th week is over.


Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
Daniel 12:7-12

• And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Now you know why you are rejecting the plain truth of the scriptures. You don’t understand what the times of the Gentiles is, or when it ends.


Zechariah 14:1-2 is after the times of the Gentiles, and is at the coming of the Lord.


The mistake you are making in your Luke 21:20-24 narrative, thinking it refers to 70AD is because armies are surrounding Jerusalem you think it is still the times of the Gentiles just because Jerusalem is under attack.

The Temple is rebuilt BECAUSE the times of the Gentiles is over and the 70th week of Daniel has begun.


The Lord returns after the 70th week is over.


Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.
Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”
And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
Daniel 12:7-12

• And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

JLB

No. (Zechariah 14:1-2) is still the 'Times of the Gentiles'. Jerusalem is still in question as to Gentile control. During the final 7 year tribulation, Jerusalem is being controlled by Gentiles. It is only 'at' the Second Coming of Christ that the 'Times of the Gentiles' ends. That doesn't occur till (Zechariah 14:3).

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

No. (Zechariah 14:1-2) is still the 'Times of the Gentiles'. Jerusalem is still in question as to Gentile control. During the final 7 year tribulation, Jerusalem is being controlled by Gentiles. It is only 'at' the Second Coming of Christ that the 'Times of the Gentiles' ends. That doesn't occur till (Zechariah 14:3).

Quantrill

You sure you want to go there?

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:4


Case Closed.

 

[GodIsMySavior]

Thanks for your work in this matter.
What’s the point you are wanting to make?
These are the things that are coming soon.
Why waste time arguing about what happened in 70AD?
Do you believe Jesus returned in 70AD?
Do you believe the resurrection is past?
JLB

And thank you.

I don't feel like that is a waste of time or else I wouldn't bother studying on it. My desire is to search for Truth thru the Scriptures, such as how many Scriptures did 70ad fulfill for the Jews.

I found this site on Josephus' commentary on that event to be rather helpful on that:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation, if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)​

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ...........................
===================================
Their beloved Apostle Paul [who was a Hebrew Jew of the tribe of Benjamin/Nation of Judah] elaborates on the veil that covers the eyes of the pre and post 1st century Jews

YLT)
2 Corinthians 3:12 Having then such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,
14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn — which in Christ is being made useless — 15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie, 16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away. 17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;

Revelation is that "unveiling".....

Revelation 1:1 An unveiling/revealing <602> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John

I am in the process of harmonizing the O D and Revelation if you and others are interested.

I just got to Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21-22. A lot of Bible scholars agree that the 1st part of the Olivet Discourse [and perhaps some of Revelation] was fulfilled in the 1st century.
I will have a more clearer picture once I complete my harmonization of those.
Blessings

Bible Study - Harmonization of the Olivet Discourse study using the Greek.

I would like to post a biblical study on the famous Olivet Discourse by harmonizing all 3 Gospels that contain it. Most Bible theologians I know of agree that Jesus is speaking about the future destruction of the Temple, Sanctuary and Jerusalem in 70ad, but that is a discussion for another...

christianforums.net

Luke 21:
21 then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing! into the mountains;
and those in midst of Her, let them be coming out! to country; [Revelation 18:4 "come out of Her My people....."]
and those in the countries placed, let them not come be entering into Her
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled<4130> all the having been written [Isaiah 61:2]

 

[Quantrill]

You sure you want to go there?

And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. Zechariah 14:4


Case Closed.

Yes, I am sure. (Zech. 14:4) is not (Zech. 14:1-2), which you first mentioned.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Yes, I am sure. (Zech. 14:4) is not (Zech. 14:1-2), which you first mentioned.

Quantrill

So now, Zechariah 14:1-2 the coming of the Lord to fight for Jerusalem, is somehow not associated with Him touching down on the Mount of Olives, the same Mount of Olives that He taught His disciples about this very event?


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


The whole Chapter is about the return of Jesus Christ which is clearly after the times of the Gentiles is over.





JLB

 

[JLB]

And thank you.

I don't feel like that is a waste of time or else I wouldn't bother studying on it. My desire is to search for Truth thru the Scriptures, such as how many Scriptures did 70ad fulfill for the Jews.

Studying the scriptures is always fruitful.

Reading endless commentaries and blending them with scripture usually doesn't end up jiving.

Have you studied the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel.

We can start a thread on that and discuss if you want.

It definitely involves the events of 70AD, though not extensively.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hello JLB.
While translating and harmonizing the Olivet Discourse, I noticed some words and phrases used in Luke's version that are not found in Matt or Mark' versions.

Did you see my post where I discussed this?


Matthew and Luke had different ways of expressing the truth of the same subject using different words, yet the meaning is the same.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


Same exact subject yet different words are used to explain the meaning.



JLB

 

[GodIsMySavior]

Did you see my post where I discussed this?
Matthew and Luke had different ways of expressing the truth of the same subject using different words, yet the meaning is the same.
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21
Same exact subject yet different words are used to explain the meaning.
JLB

Good info and I agree.
That is what made harmonizing the O D so challenging but yet rewarding.
I have always preferred Luke's Gospel over Matthew's, which is a personal preference [Luke is also said to be the author of Acts, which is another personal favorite of mine]

Some more verses: [and where a concordance comes in handy]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon - EliYah Ministries

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

www.eliyah.com

Mat 24:37 and as the days of Noah -- so shall be also the parousia of the Son of Man;
Luk 17:26 'And, as it came to pass in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man;
=============
This is an interesting study. These Gk words are also used in Revelation....

Matthew 24:28
for wherever the corpse<4430> may be, there shall the eagles/vultures be gathered together<4863>.

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies G4430 shall lie in the street of the great city..........
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies G4430 three days......

4430. ptoma from the alternate of 4098;
a ruin, i.e. (specially), lifeless body (corpse, carrion):--dead body, carcase, corpse.
G4430 πτῶμα (ptōma), occurs 5 times in 4 verses
========================
Luke 17:37
And they answering say to him, 'Where, sir?'
and He saith to them, 'Where the body<4983> is, there will the eagles/vultures<105> be gathered together<1996>.'

Rev 18:13 “and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies<4983> and souls of men.

4983 soma from 4982;
the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively:--bodily, body, slave
G4983 σῶμα (sōma), occurs 146 times in 122 verses
========================
Luk 17:28 “Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built

This isn't part of the Olivet Discourse, but notice the different Gk words used in Matt 12:41: and Matt 12:42 which is why I go to the Gk when study verses.

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing up<ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it. That they reformedd/repented into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.
Luk 11:32
'Men of Nineveh shall be resurrecting/standing-up <ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632> it, because they reformed/repented<3340> at the proclamation<2782> of Jonah; and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here!

450. anistemi an-is'-tay-mee from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).

Matt 12:42
`A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more/greater of Solomon here!
Luk 11:31
'A queen of the south shall be being roused<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation and shall be condemning it, because she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

 

[Dave Watchman]

The warning given by Christ as to when the disciples should flee in (Matt) and (Mark) relates to the 'abomination of desolation' being set up in the temple. (Mark 13:14) (Matt. 24:15) And this relates specifically to the end time event of the Tribulation spoken of by Daniel. (Dan. 9:27)

Would it surprise you to find out that you were wrong?

That the 'abomination of desolation' was, or is, not something set up in a temple, or that Luke 21 is not the Olivet Discourse?

And that Daniel 9:27 was Jesus Himself dying in the middle of the week?

Would these things be something that the people participating in this thread would be willing to accept?

It is for these reasons that I believe (Luke 21:20-24) speak to 70 A.D.

I was thinking of when Jesus said:

"And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come.​

I was also thinking of (Let The Reader Understand).

Because whenever I don't, or can't, understand something Biblical, I wonder if it's because I won't, or can't, accept the truth of the matter. If I'm willing to accept it.

Luke said that everyday Jesus was teaching IN the temple.

John said every morning He would go there.

But at NIGHT, He would lodge on the Mount called Olivet.

"Now during the day He was teaching in the temple, but at evening He would go out and spend the night on the mount that is called Olivet. - Luke 21:37​

But at the start of Matthew 24 Jesus was leaving the temple and walking away.

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. - Matthew 24:1​

Down the temple mount they went, through the Kidron Valley, and up again to the Mount called Olivet.

About a 20 minute walk.

For young guys.

I wonder if they built a camp fire?

Then:

"Early in the morning he came again to the temple.​

All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. - John 8:2​

A Sabbath Day's journey.

Peaceful Sabbath.

...

 

[JLB]

Would these things be something that the people participating in this thread would be willing to accept?

Absoloutly not.

Because I understand Daniels 70 week prophecy, that it was divided into three distinct time frames.

Jesus was “cut off” outside the 70 weeks Time Frame.

If you read verse 26 it tells the story.

The 69th week ended at Messiah the Prince.

The 70th week does not commence until sometime after the events of 70 AD.


This is the understanding Jesus referred to.



JLB

 

[Dave Watchman]

Jesus was “cut off” outside the 70 weeks Time Frame.

Jesus was “cut off” outside the 70 7 and 62 weeks Time Frame.

Because I understand Daniels 70 week prophecy, that it was divided into three distinct time frames.

It was.

It is.

The 69th week ended at Messiah the Prince.

The 69th week began with the debut of Messiah the Prince in the temple reading from the Isaiah 61 scroll declaring the favorable YEAR of the Lord, right on time in 27 AD.

"Now during the day He was teaching in the temple, but at evening He would go out and spend the night on the mount that is called Olivet.​

This is the understanding Jesus referred to.

Jesus said that the TIME was fulfilled.

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” - Mark 1:15​

There was something else going on back then, the Old Time Jews were supposed to have redeemed the 70 weeks. How Jesus would have loved to gather them like a hen gathers it's chicks.

But they missed the time of their Visitation.

And when Jesus said that the TIME was fulfilled early in His ministry, the only TIME He could have been talking about was the 7 and 62 weeks until Messiah the Prince.

The Daniel 9 Time.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, actually others are disagreeing that (Luke 21:20-24) speaks to 70 A.D. JLB holds that the Olivet Discourse speaks only to the end Tribulation before the Second Coming. You hold to it being about nothing but 70 A.D. Where as I hold that both are addressed.

Understand that we are never going to agree as I am Dispensational in doctrine and you are not. Your entire method of interpreting Scripture is different than mine. That being said I will try and address some of these differences. That we the Church are the Temple of God at this time on earth, I agree. But that is during the time that Israel has been set aside. During the time that Israel is under a judicial blindness. (Rom. 11:25) But God is not finished with Israel. (Jer. 31:35-37) Thus there is no conflict with the Church, the Temple, at present and another Jewish Temple being built.

The 70 week prophecy of Daniel begins with the rebuilding of the Temple. But the 70th week does not. It is yet future, the time called the 7 year Tribulation. Time has stopped with Israel while she is in blindness. While God is building the Church.

I disagree with your interpretation of (Dan. 9:26-27). Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week. "after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off'. (26) The one confirming the covenant in (27) is not Messiah. It is the anti-christ. "the prince that shall come" (26) The covenant is not any covenant of God. It is a covenant made with anti-christ.(27) And the anti-christ will break that covenant in the middle of the 70th week. Or, the middle of the Tribulation.

Briefly stated, this is my understanding. I know you disagree but as I said, we interpret from two different systems.

Quantrill

I'm not going to go over and over again about Luke 21:20, 21 and Matthew 24 as we have talked it to death only to keep repeating our self. Dispensationalist will never see the Spiritual in the literal scripture by how they are taught to only see the literal in scripture. This is why you reject what we are trying to get you to see that is literal and also prophetic in the Spiritual of end time events.

Dispensationalist only believe that literalsim is the best way to view scripture. They also believe there is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the NT. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying scripture there is no objective standard by which to study scripture.

Dispensationalist hold that the church has not replaced Israel in God's program and that the OT promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Church.

To sum it up dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church and organizes the Bible into two different dispensations or administrations.

This is why you reject all the Spiritual prophecies found in the scriptures.

 

[Quantrill]

So now, Zechariah 14:1-2 the coming of the Lord to fight for Jerusalem, is somehow not associated with Him touching down on the Mount of Olives, the same Mount of Olives that He taught His disciples about this very event?


Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5


The whole Chapter is about the return of Jesus Christ which is clearly after the times of the Gentiles is over.





JLB

All you gave first was (Zech. 14:1-2). That involves the 'Day of the Lord'. The seven year Tribulation. The 'Times of the Gentiles' is still going on during that time. At the end of that, at the Second Coming of Christ, it ceases.

This is proof that (Luke 21:24) is speaking to 70 A.D. For (Luke) says at the end, the Jews are taken captive and led away unto all nations until the 'Times of the Gentiles' is fulfilled.

Different ending. Different warning. Different time period addressed.

Quantrill