Man Conceived Religions

[Fastfredy0]

Did Jesus say that those who love him will keep his commands? Did John say that whoever doesn’t keep Jesus’s commands doesn’t know him and is a liar if they claim they do? Did Jesus command his disciples to go make others disciples and to teach them to observe what he commanded them?

Three simple questions.

Did Jesus say that those who love him will keep his commands?

Yes

Did John say that whoever doesn’t keep Jesus’s commands doesn’t know him and is a liar if they claim they do?

Yes

Did Jesus command his disciples to go make others disciples and to teach them to observe what he commanded them?

Yes

Phew ... did I pass?

 

[Free]

Yes

Yes

Yes

Phew ... did I pass?

A+

 

[jaybo]

Yes

Yes

Yes

Phew ... did I pass?

No, you failed. Read Romans 7.

 

[Fastfredy0]

No, you failed. Read Romans 7.

You will have to be more specific.

Free gave me an A+ ....therefore, I believe him to be the better biblical scholar and I think he will agree
(that you give me a leg up on the next test I hope)

 

[jaybo]

You will have to be more specific.

Free gave me an A+ ....therefore, I believe him to be the better biblical scholar and I think he will agree
(that you give me a leg up on the next test I hope)

You fail to understand to whom Jesus was speaking and when He was saying those things.

There is an extremely great divide between the words and actions before the cross and those after the cross. Before Jesus died, was resurrected, and sent the Holy Spirit to be our guide, commandments (a.k.a. the law) were given to control people's behavior. After the Holy Spirit was given and people were born of the Spirit, they no longer needed external explanations about how to behave. Commands, laws, etc. are given to people who cannot govern themselves.

Children, whether natural or spiritual, require teaching and instruction to become responsible adults. The expectation is that, after they reach a level of maturity, they will be self-governing. As the writer of Hebrews said, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic elements of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness." Hebrews 5-12-13

The goal is spiritual maturity. If you, after a period of time, still require external rules and commands to dictate your behavior, you have failed. Jesus had to give commands to His disciples (and others) before His resurrection, because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. If commands were required by Christians (those who have been freed from the law and have gained spiritual maturity) after His resurrection, what was the purpose of being given the Holy Spirit who would guide us into all truth?

 

[Fastfredy0]

There is an extremely great divide between the words and actions before the cross and those after the cross. Before Jesus died, was resurrected, and sent the Holy Spirit to be our guide, commandments (a.k.a. the law) were given to control people's behavior. After the Holy Spirit was given and people were born of the Spirit, they no longer needed external explanations about how to behave. Commands, laws, etc. are given to people who cannot govern themselves.

Children, whether natural or spiritual, require teaching and instruction to become responsible adults. The expectation is that, after they reach a level of maturity, they will be self-governing. As the writer of Hebrews said, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic elements of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness." Hebrews 5-12-13

The goal is spiritual maturity. If you, after a period of time, still require external rules and commands to dictate your behavior, you have failed. Jesus had to give commands to His disciples (and others) before His resurrection, because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. If commands were required by Christians (those who have been freed from the law and have gained spiritual maturity) after His resurrection, what was the purpose of being given the Holy Spirit who would guide us into all truth?

To be candid ... I don't know what point you are trying to convey. I have free time, saw the questions
Free asked, decided to take the test and was not too surprised that I got an A+ for my biblical scholarship.

 

[Free]

To be candid ... I don't know what point you are trying to convey. I have free time, saw the questions
Free asked, decided to take the test and was not too surprised that I got an A+ for my biblical scholarship.

Personally, I think they're very simple, straightforward questions.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Personally, I think they're very simple, straightforward questions.

That's why I took the test. A+ was never in doubt.

 

[jaybo]

You will have to be more specific.

Free gave me an A+ ....therefore, I believe him to be the better biblical scholar and I think he will agree
(that you give me a leg up on the next test I hope)

Of course you are going to judge someone to be a better scholar than another because s/he gives you an A+, and judge someone to be a worse scholar because s/he fails you. The Pharisees "gave an A+" to those who followed their teachings, including denying that Jesus was the Messiah. All that proves is that the recipient of the grade agrees with the teaching, even though the teaching is false.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Of course you are going to judge someone to be a better scholar than another because s/he gives you an A+, and judge someone to be a worse scholar because s/he fails you.

Well, that's true enough. I was speaking in jest for the most part. I do think the test had easy questions.

The Pharisees "gave an A+" to those who followed their teachings, including denying that Jesus was the Messiah. All that proves is that the recipient of the grade agrees with the teaching,

Also true.

even though the teaching is false.

well, that's a conclusion without evidence based on your bias.

Aside: I read through 7ish posts. I don't even know what you are arguing about. THe topic is "Man Conceived Religions" and that didn't help me figure it out.

 

[Free]

Aside: I read through 7ish posts. I don't even know what you are arguing about. THe topic is "Man Conceived Religions" and that didn't help me figure it out.

The current discussion, related to the OP, began on page 1. The issue is whether or not there are commands and rules for believers to follow. The OP says no, without providing evidence apart and simply appeals to Paul’s statements that no one is justified by the law.

I say yes, and have provided numerous passages from Scripture, including Paul and John, giving rules and commands for believers. I have repeatedly asked some other very simple, straightforward questions, in addition to these, and they have all been ignored, along with all the posts of the passages I provided and my rebuttals. I have also stated that the Holy Spirit also guides us, but mostly through the very rules and commands he inspired.

That’s currently where things stand. I’m just not sure if Robert Pate is going to address any of my questions.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The current discussion, related to the OP, began on page 1. The issue is whether or not there are commands and rules for believers to follow. The OP says no, without providing evidence apart and simply appeals to Paul’s statements that no one is justified by the law.

I say yes, and have provided numerous passages from Scripture, including Paul and John, giving rules and commands for believers. I have repeatedly asked some other very simple, straightforward questions, in addition to these, and they have all been ignored, along with all the posts of the passages I provided and my rebuttals. I have also stated that the Holy Spirit also guides us, but mostly through the very rules and commands he inspired.

That’s currently where things stand. I’m just not sure if @Robert Pate is going to address any of my questions.

Thanks for the concise analysis.

Let me think ... oh, that took 16 nanoseconds .. I agree with you completely (not trying to 'kiss up' for next test mark).

Premise 1:

there are [no] commands and [no} rules for believers to follow

Premise 2: if premise 1 is true, then we cannot sin
Premise 3: 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Conclusion: Either premise 1 or premise 3 is false (assuming I can interpret premise 3 correctly). Hmmm, I think I will side with God this time and say Premise 3 is correct. Therefore there are rules and commands for believers.

Romans 7:16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do, [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent). Seems Paul thought there were rules left to follow.


I guess I could looked up Antinomianism I could find some verses to misapply

 

[Free]

Thanks for the concise analysis.

Let me think ... oh, that took 16 nanoseconds .. I agree with you completely (not trying to 'kiss up' for next test mark).

Premise 1:

Premise 2: if premise 1 is true, then we cannot sin
Premise 3: 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Conclusion: Either premise 1 or premise 3 is false (assuming I can interpret premise 3 correctly). Hmmm, I think I will side with God this time and say Premise 3 is correct. Therefore there are rules and commands for believers.

Romans 7:16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do, [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent). Seems Paul thought there were rules left to follow.


I guess I could looked up Antinomianism I could find some verses to misapply

I forgot to add that the other main counter-argument is that we are only to be guided by the Holy Spirit, not rules and commands. It’s posited as either/or but I say it’s both/and, especially since the Holy Spirit inspired all those rules and commands for believers.

The good news is, we can ignore Jesus’s command to go make disciples of all nations. Things just got a whole lot easier for us. I just realized that would support the Reformed view of predestination and election. Excellent!

 

[Fastfredy0]

I forgot to add that the other main counter-argument is that we are only to be guided by the Holy Spirit, not rules and commands. It’s posited as either/or but I say it’s both/and, especially since the Holy Spirit inspired all those rules and commands for believers.

Agreed ... I am from the school that most of our info from the Spirit is what He wrote in scripture. I suppose He reminds us of scripture.

The good news is, we can ignore Jesus’s command to go make disciples of all nations. Things just got a whole lot easier for us. I just realized that would support the Reformed view of predestination and election. Excellent!

Come to the "DARK SIDE" Luke. *giggle*

 

[jaybo]

You will have to be more specific.

Free gave me an A+ ....therefore, I believe him to be the better biblical scholar and I think he will agree
(that you give me a leg up on the next test I hope)

Suppose you had a mathematics question: 1 + 1 = ?

You might answer "2" and person #1 would give you an A+. Person #2 would give you an F. Why?

Because mathematics is not limited to the decimal system. 1 + 1 = 10 is also correct (in the binary system). So person #1 has limited knowledge of mathematics. He might say that 1 + 1 = 2 according to the law of mathematics, but that is based on limited knowledge. Clearly he doesn't understand the greater dimensions of mathematics.

So it is when someone gives you an A+ for giving the "correct" answer to doctrinal questions. There is a lot more to understanding the New Covenant that was put into effect when Jesus died than laws and commandments. Without the guidance of the Holy Spirit one's spiritual knowledge is limited. That is why the Jews failed. Their comprehension was limited to laws and commandments, so they missed the true meaning of Christ. Don't make the same error!

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." The yoke of slavery is the law and commands. Freedom is life by the Spirit,.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Suppose you had a mathematics question: 1 + 1 = ?

You might answer "2" and person #1 would give you an A+. Person #2 would give you an F. Why?

Person 2 made a mistake, seeks retribution or is stupid ... these come to my head.
Hmmm... after reading your post further it appears Person #2 gave a trick question. Naughty person #2.

Because mathematics is not limited to the decimal system. 1 + 1 = 10 is also correct (in the binary system). So person #1 has limited knowledge of mathematics. He might say that 1 + 1 = 2 according to the law of mathematics, but that is based on limited knowledge. Clearly he doesn't understand the greater dimensions of mathematics.

True... but then the person asking the question would be obligated to mention the question was based on the binary system as that is the cultural standard.
I understand both the decimal and binary methods of answering the question yet I answered '2' as that is the standard given the way the question was posed. (aside: 11111 + 1 = 100000) ... so it is not clear the person didn't understand adding with binary numbers but didn't realize it was a trick question.

So it is when someone gives you an A+ for giving the "correct" answer to doctrinal questions. There is a lot more to understanding the New Covenant that was put into effect when Jesus died than laws and commandments.

That may be true but the above comments you made do not prove it. You use 'trickery' IMO

Galatians 5:1, "For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." The yoke of slavery is the law and commands. Freedom is life by the Spirit,.

You made no attempt to show how this verse answers the question at hand which, as I understand it is:

whether or not there are commands and rules for believers to follow.

 

[Hopeful]

You neglected these verses, "To the married I give this command—not I but the Lord—that the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does separate, let her remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband) and that the husband should not divorce his wife.
To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. And if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce the husband." 1 Corinthians 7:10-13
Clearly not everything Paul wrote is from God. Some of it is his personal opinions. This applies to others also.
On a more fundamental note, obeying the Old Covenant involves keeping rules (written or oral commands). The New Covenant involves being internally guided by the Holy Spirit. The two covenants don't mix!

As I have said before, what Biblical rules involve such things as exceeding the speed limit, writing a bad check, watching internet porn, betting on the Super Bowl, etc?

Which of your examples shows that one loves God with all their heart, strength, and might, and their neighbor as themselves?
Which don't?
With the Holy Spirit in us, we can always tell.

 

[Highway54]

All man conceived religions are false. Their purpose is to draw us away from Christ and his Gospel and into ourselves. All religions have one thing in common, they are all very subjective. The Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ is not subjective, it is objective because it took place over 2,000 years ago before we were born. If Satan can get us to focus on ourselves, who are sinners, he is very happy. There is no power in ourselves, the only power that we have comes from our faith in Christ and his Gospel. This is why Paul said, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17. Religion is about us, who are the sinners, the Gospel is about Jesus Christ who is higher than the heavens, Hebrews 7:26. It is our faith in Christ and his Gospel that gives us the victory that overcomes the world, 1 John 5:4. And not a religion.

There is nothing in the New Testament about a Catholic church. There is nothing about the apostles holding a mass. There is nothing in the New Testament about a purgatory, holy water, etc. There were no Cathedrals. None of the apostles wore long robes, that is something that the religious loving Pharisees did. The apostles were not holy men, if anything they saw themselves as servants to others, 2 Corinthians 4:5. There were no hierarchy or popes. They saw themselves as all equal "In Christ". None were greater or lessor.

At the head of every religion there is a man, in the Catholic religion it is the pope. In the Calvinist religion it is John Calvin. In the Morman religion it was Joseph Smith. These men are the fathers of religion and are false prophets. None of them preached a Gospel that justifies the ungodly Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father, but by me John 14:6.

All men worship some god. Why? It was created in us as we are created in God's image, by God to in fact worship Him as we see later by the 1st commandment given through Moses. Like Adam and the demons who chose to stand in opposition to God, they choose to be their own god. Gen 3:5. deciding for themselves as to what is good or evil.

 

[jaybo]

All men worship some god. Why? It was created in us as we are created in God's image, by God to in fact worship Him as we see later by the 1st commandment given through Moses. Like Adam and the demons who chose to stand in opposition to God, they choose to be their own god. Gen 3:5. deciding for themselves as to what is good or evil.

Have you heard of agnostics? There are many people who do not worship any god at all.

 

[Robert Pate]

All men worship some god. Why? It was created in us as we are created in God's image, by God to in fact worship Him as we see later by the 1st commandment given through Moses. Like Adam and the demons who chose to stand in opposition to God, they choose to be their own god. Gen 3:5. deciding for themselves as to what is good or evil.

They are all without an excuse, Romans 1:18-32. Hell is going to be one huge place.