MATT 2:34 "This generation will not pass away" ... What did Jesus mean?

[Stormcrow]

Without using a preterist view,how did you come to your conclusion on when Rev. was written?

Internal evidence noted in links posted - in part - here:

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=41784&p=661254&viewfull=1#post661254

I'm not going to waste my time rehashing all this material. Read the links.

 

[Sinthesis]

:angel3Angel - "Rise and measure the Temple of God!"
John -- "What do you mean? The temple was destroyed 20 odd years ago just as Jesus prophesied."
:angel3Angel - "Yeah, but there is going to be a new temple, maybe something like 2000 years from now"
John -- "A new Temple of God? I thought Christian believers were the new Temple. Why would God sanctify some new building made by human hands?"
:angel3Angel - "Because that's the only way this vision makes any sense if it's being given in the 90's."
John -- "Well, if you had given me this vision in 65AD then there would still have been a Temple for me to measure and we could have avoided all this confusion."

 

[Stormcrow]

I've also addressed the dating of Revelation in other posts by relating it to Paul's letters, as noted below.

{14} ~'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. Revelation 2:14 (NASB)

Recognize this problem - eating meat offered to idols - from any other letters in the NT?

{19} "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, {20} but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. {21} "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." Acts 15:19-21 (NASB)

Eating meat offered to idols was anathema to Jewish believers because Christ told them that not one smallest stroke or letter of the Law would pass away UNTIL heaven and earth passed away. (Matthew 5:18). Seeing Gentile believers eating meat offered to idols caused many of them to stumble in their own faith and was causing divisions between Gentile and Jewish believers in the early church.

Paul dealt with this issue, too, with the Romans (Romans 14) and Corinthians (I Corinthians 8 and 10).

Now, we know that the Law was abolished in 70 AD when "heaven and earth" (the Old Covenant kingdom of Israel and the Temple that represented it) passed away, thus freeing Jews from the Law (Read the book of Hebrews!).

So the issue of eating meat offered to idols would not have been an issue in 96 AD, as the Law was gone and a kingdom of "righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17) replaced it.

But this is not the only issue John was writing to the churches about. He was also dealing with other issues, just as Paul was:

The problems of false apostleship (Rev. 2:2, 2 Cor. 11:13),
Backsliding churches (Rev. 2:4-5, Gal. 1:6)
Tribulation of the Church (Rev. 2:10, Acts 14:21-22, Rom.5:3-4, 12:12, 1 Thess. 1:6)

Here's how I summarized the issue in an e-book I'm writing on Revelation:

By just this one example, we see that the issue of eating meat offered to idols was something the apostles were addressing throughout the middle of the first century. In other words, the problem of eating meat offered to idols was not unique to Pergamum. It was, however, a problem unique to the period in which it was addressed, which further attests to the immediacy of Christ’s words for them, not us.

It’s inconceivable that the issue of eating meat offered to idols would arise in any mainline Christian denomination today, thus rendering Christ’s words through John relevant only to the people in the time at which John penned them.

I research and write my own material and prefer to follow the evidence where it leads. In other words, I like to think for myself and not rely on the rantings of (the late) Cyrus Scofield, Hal Lindsey and Jack van Impe.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Stormcrow]

:angel3Angel - "Rise and measure the Temple of God!"
John -- "What do you mean? The temple was destroyed 20 odd years ago just as Jesus prophesied."
:angel3Angel - "Yeah, but there is going to be a new temple, maybe something like 2000 years from now"
John -- "A new Temple of God? I thought Christian believers were the new Temple. Why would God sanctify some new building made by human hands?"
:angel3Angel - "Because that's the only way this vision makes any sense if it's being given in the 90's."
John -- "Well, if you had given me this vision in 65AD then there would still have been a Temple for me to measure and we could have avoided all this confusion."

Excellent!

 

[Stormcrow]

I'm sure you feel justified in making these statements, but making assertions and proving them are two different things. The fact that you have twice in this thread alone failed to supply your so-called proof, just tells me there isn't any or you are only looking for weak minded novices that you can try to convince.

How can I prove them to those who have admitted they will not accept any proof, as you did just a few posts up???

You appear to want nothing more than to argue. Find someone else to argue with. I'm not interested.

 

[duari91]

Please provide a specific reference.

No problem

Rev 9:14 - 15 speaks of the angel that will kill a 3rd of mankind. This can be assumed as a war, or something with greater potential to kill (Like a bomb/nuke). Name an even that happened from the time of Jesus's death - 70 A.D that killed a 3rd of mankind.

 

[Stormcrow]

Rev 9:14 - 15 speaks of the angel that will kill a 3rd of mankind. This can be assumed as a war, or something with greater potential to kill (Like a bomb/nuke).

And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. Revelation 9:15 (NASB)

It was a war, but not the one you're expecting.

Like all symbols in Revelation, this also has its roots in the Old Testament:

~'So as I live,' declares the Lord GOD, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye will have no pity and I will not spare. ~'One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. Ezekiel 5:11-12 (NASB)

Name an even that happened from the time of Jesus's death - 70 A.D that killed a 3rd of mankind.

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. “Mankind” here does not refer to the entire planet but to those killed in the Jewish war with Rome.

 

[Stan53]

How can I prove them to those who have admitted they will not accept any proof, as you did just a few posts up???

You appear to want nothing more than to argue. Find someone else to argue with. I'm not interested.

and yet you keep responding. BTW I never said I would accept you submissions before you refuse to submit them. Look at the posts. You wanted me to accept them before you gave them. Are you afraid someone may shed some light on your doctrine?

 

[duari91]

And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind. Revelation 9:15 (NASB)

It was a war, but not the one you're expecting.

Like all symbols in Revelation, this also has its roots in the Old Testament:

~'So as I live,' declares the Lord GOD, 'surely, because you have defiled My sanctuary with all your detestable idols and with all your abominations, therefore I will also withdraw, and My eye will have no pity and I will not spare. ~'One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them. Ezekiel 5:11-12 (NASB)

The destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. “Mankind†here does not refer to the entire planet but to those killed in the Jewish war with Rome.

Do you have any proof that even a 3rd of man was killed in Jerusalem? Better yet, do you have any proof that "mankind" is equal to Jerusalem only? Last I checked the Gentiles were saved as well, not just God's chosen people.

 

[Stan53]

:angel3Angel - "Rise and measure the Temple of God!"
John -- "What do you mean? The temple was destroyed 20 odd years ago just as Jesus prophesied."
:angel3Angel - "Yeah, but there is going to be a new temple, maybe something like 2000 years from now"
John -- "A new Temple of God? I thought Christian believers were the new Temple. Why would God sanctify some new building made by human hands?"
:angel3Angel - "Because that's the only way this vision makes any sense if it's being given in the 90's."
John -- "Well, if you had given me this vision in 65AD then there would still have been a Temple for me to measure and we could have avoided all this confusion."

and yet Rev 4:2 before that, says John was IN heaven in the Spirit when He was asked to measure the temple in Rev 11. Ezeiel was asked to do the same thing in Ezek 40. Both were IN the spirit. Both did not actually go to an actual temple.

 

[Stan53]

The following link has some very good articles on John's time on Patmos. It is a three part article with links on the first page.

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/pos...apostle-john-and-emperor-domitian-part-1.aspx

​

​

 

[reba]

I asked nicely.

Any thing i read as snarky, rude ,insulting i will remove.

Different opinions are great for discussion keep it that way :p

Thanks guys reba

 

[Stormcrow]

Do you have any proof that even a 3rd of man was killed in Jerusalem? Better yet, do you have any proof that "mankind" is equal to Jerusalem only? Last I checked the Gentiles were saved as well, not just God's chosen people.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/index.htm

Help yourself, history major.

 

[duari91]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/index.htm

Help yourself, history major.

I don't understand, this man does not speak of a 3rd of mankind. Please direct me to the portion that does.

Flavius was a great scholar, indeed. However; he certainly isn't know for his "records." By that I mean no one has still provided evidence of a recorded "3rd of mankind" perishing. Not written "guesses", but actual written account of the dead. Such records would be kept had this actually happened since it would fulfill a prophecy. This historically still has yet to happen, I don't understand why you are fighting me on this. As a history major, If I have been provided sufficient solid evidence, then historically it must be true. I have studied this time period plenty, and it is widely known among the historical community that this event has yet to take place. Not one piece of solid, justified (and reliable) evidence exists to support the event.

Im sorry, but unless someone can give me physical evidence (like records) of this great purging of mankind, then it is much less than speculation.

As said by myself in a previous post. No man knows of day, or the hour. Not even the son, but only the FATHER. Also stated above, had this event transpired God would insure his people would know about it. God isn't in the speculation business. He would have provided us proper evidence to support such claims, and not forcing us to stretch historical figures to meet our own personal beliefs.

 

[Stormcrow]

I don't understand, this man does not speak of a 3rd of mankind. Please direct me to the portion that does.

You're the history major. Do some digging. It's there.

 

[Stormcrow]

This will help focus your search.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/war-6.htm

It would pay to read all 10 chapters (they're short) to understand how Christ's words in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation were fulfilled to the letter.

 

[Elijah674]

It isn't a landslide, but I'd put my money on Stormcrow for the win in this thread.

For example:
"Some standing here will not taste death until...." hard words to argue with.

No arguement, Just true facts! When these prophesied things are all fullfilled even with some the second time, that will be the generation that Christ has documented will truely be standing here.
--Elijah

 

[smaller]

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

 

[Stormcrow]

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

Not written to us. You skipped the most important part:

"Be on guard, so that your hearts will not be weighted down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of life, and that day will not come on you suddenly like a trap; for it will come upon all those who dwell on the face of all the earth.

"But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you [Peter and James and John and Andrew] may have strength to escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:34-36 (NASB)

He was talking directly to those disciples who walked with Him to the Mount of Olives:

As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew were questioning Him privately, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are going to be fulfilled?" Mark 13:3-4 (NASB)

He wasn't talking to Smaller, Stormcrow, or Vic C.!

One more thing: the passage quoted in Luke is found almost word for word in one of John's letters to the churches in Revelation:

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

Read Tacitus to understand what the entire Roman Empire was facing during the year of the four Caesars.

 

[smaller]

Not written to us.

Luke 4:4
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

He wasn't talking to Smaller, Stormcrow, or Vic C.!

Why would that change His statement of fact? It remains as written:

"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."

We'd have to re-write it for your imposition to read only those Jews of 70 a.d.

~'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. ~'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. Revelation 3:10-11 (NASB)

Yep:

"which shall come upon all the world"

s