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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
Message to GOD"S elect
- Thread starter josefnospam
- Start date
Adam and Eve were either God's elect, or they weren't.
If you say Yes. Then all of their offspring were predestined as elect.
Which would mean God loved the whole world, and it is will that all men would be saved.
If you say no, Then you are saying God made a mistake in creating them.
Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, and were to reproduce His Image and Likeness to fill the earth for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.
JLB
Deborah13
Member
I appreciate your long detailed explanation. However regeneration means Salvation does it not? That is what Spurgeon says.
Is a saved person, Believer, EVER called a Sinner? NO Believers are "Saints". Would you agree?
I quote Spurgeon, again, last sentence in the previous post.
"If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."
Have you ever heard of the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? There is an order of things preformed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation. You could wiki that term, and I am guessing they have something. Within the logical order of things accomplished by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, one of the things is regeneration. Are they identical, no. Are they related? yes. There is no time separation between salvation and regeneration, but there is a logical separation. Just as the term "Regeneration" and "justification" are different, but happen at the same time.
Deborah13
Member
Have you ever heard of the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? There is an order of things preformed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation. You could wiki that term, and I am guessing they have something. Within the logical order of things accomplished by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, one of the things is regeneration. Are they identical, no. Are they related? yes. There is no time separation between salvation and regeneration, but there is a logical separation. Just as the term "Regeneration" and "justification" are different, but happen at the same time.
What I just quote was the last sentence in that paragraph, about regeneration. Hmm....
His declaration of what he was talking about. Spurgeon states, the regeneration is salvation. And that he is preaching the gospel to sinners, not regenerated people.
I know you get this.....
"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief
What I just quote was the last sentence in that paragraph, about regeneration. Hmm....
His declaration of what he was talking about. Spurgeon states, the regeneration is salvation. And that he is preaching the gospel to sinners, not regenerated people.
I know you get this.....
"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief
E
Elijah674
Guest
What a cop/out friend! What kind of answer is that??:naughty
--Elijah
PS: And God said that He made a mistake?? See Gen. 3 and answer the question of what [[like]] one of us means??
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man [[is become as one of us]], to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
But you have them immortal anyway, huh? (that is just another of your 'flawed' teaching)
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G
Guest
Guest
@JLB The way I see it, Adam and Eve were God's elect BEFORE the fall. Then sin came into the world and then we as sinful people had to make a choice to choose God or a fallen world. Was the fall God's plan? Of course not, but in 2013 this is where we are. Now we have to choose. Eternal life or eternal death.
What in the world are you talking about?
I asked the question.
Were Adam and Eve God's elect?
That is not a cop out friend. That is a question.
When you tried to answer my question with another question, that is a cop out.
On the day Adam and Eve were created, were they God's elect?
Yes or No?
JLB
Deborah, you are repeating a bad argument that I already answered. I am guessing you do not understand the previous answer I gave and so you are repeating your previous post. Maybe you think I did not understand what you are saying. What you are saying is all to old and obvious. I have seen confusion like what you are presenting many times before. Non-Calvinists regularly and consistently are confused on regeneration and equate it with salvation. Spurgeon knew the difference and is in now way making them totally equal.
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." Spurgeon is not saying that regeneration is the same thing as salvation. Spurgeon is saying this in reference to Hyper-Calvinists who say that we should only evangelize the elect (actually in Spurgeons sermon he quotes Hyper-Calvinists as saying we should evangelize only the regenerate). I already demonstrated the context of Spurgeons quote to you that it is in reference to Hyper-Calvinism. You fail to acknowledge it. Maybe you fail to understand what is being said, so you are repeating your previous post that I already answered.
Regeneration is a part of the logical order of salvation, but it does not equal salvation. So then, Spurgeon can say to Hyper-Calvinists that those who are regenerate are already saved. That is because in particular baptist or regular baptist, or reformed baptist theology the instant regeneration occurs, a person is saved. This does not mean that regeneration and salvation are the same thing.
That would be similar to saying that election is the same thing as salvation. Well, all elect people will be saved, but the two terms to not mean the same thing.
Please look at this. http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis
In the logical progression of salvation, where in the list do you see the term "salvation." Why do you think the term "salvation" does not appear in the list? The answer to that question is so painfully obvious, one can only laugh at the silly question. The word salvation cannot be used in the ordo salutis because the list is the logical order of salvation. Now the order is not speaking of a time chronology, but merely a logical order. If one part of the ordo salutis were salvation then the entire list would not be an "order." Is that not painfully obvious? So then, is it not also painfully obvious that any one item in that order is not the same thing as the whole order?
Deborah, please, if you post again, do not repeat yourself as you are now doing. I understand the quote, I have answered what you said twice now. Your not addressing my answers, but just repeating your same question about Spurgeon being an Arminian.
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
The concept that regeneration is the same thing as salvation makes Titus 3:5 nonsense. If Christ saved us through the action of the Holy Spirit called regeneration, then why would the Holy Spirit regeneration. Christ already saved us, why would the Spirit have to do anything?
The doctrine that teaches that regeneration is the same thing as salvation fails to understand how the entire Trinity of the God head is involved in Salvation. Is it that shocking that they all work together and at the same time. If the Holy Spirit preforms the action of regeneration, does that mean that we must see it as the same thing as Christs high priestly ministry of being a mediator? Why is it so hard to see that there are different and distinct aspects of one salvation. Would you say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons? Certainly they are one God, but they are also distinct persons. I was saved by a Trinitarian God preforming different aspects of the one and same salvation. I was saved by the Spirts action of regeneration, but I was also saved by the Shed Blood of Christ. They are not the same thing, and they are not the same persons of the Trinity. Why is this so confusing and hard to see?
The concept that regeneration is the same thing as salvation makes Titus 3:5 nonsense. If Christ saved us through the action of the Holy Spirit called regeneration, then why would the Holy Spirit regeneration. Christ already saved us, why would the Spirit have to do anything?
The doctrine that teaches that regeneration is the same thing as salvation fails to understand how the entire Trinity of the God head is involved in Salvation. Is it that shocking that they all work together and at the same time. If the Holy Spirit preforms the action of regeneration, does that mean that we must see it as the same thing as Christs high priestly ministry of being a mediator? Why is it so hard to see that there are different and distinct aspects of one salvation. Would you say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons? Certainly they are one God, but they are also distinct persons. I was saved by a Trinitarian God preforming different aspects of the one and same salvation. I was saved by the Spirts action of regeneration, but I was also saved by the Shed Blood of Christ. They are not the same thing, and they are not the same persons of the Trinity. Why is this so confusing and hard to see?
G
George Muller
Guest
Not sure of your point? The term "predestined" is to be understood in its context, to be conformed unto the Image of Christ. Of course as Christ was "predestined" to suffer, we are also to suffer with Him in the process of being conformed to His Image.
Deborah13
Member
No, he is saying that if one IS regenerated they ARE saved. They can't be regenerated and Not be saved.
I know Why he said what he said. But that wasn't my point as to why he said it, but what he said.
And the only reason I brought is because of those, that believe one can be regenerated but not know it and be going along in their sinful life, unaware that they have been regenerated, thus saved. Which would mean that one is not justified by faith. Because if one has faith unto salvation, they know it.
So I have tried to make my simple language clear.
Blessings of God to You
G
George Muller
Guest
I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".
Deborah13
Member
"so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed"
Seeing that is your attitude, not bother.
G
Guest
Guest
I'm talking about God's people being predestined to be chosen. I think that's false. If God already hand picked his people throughout time, then what's the point of preaching his Word. Do you think Romans 10:9 is a choice we make. (because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) Did Christ not CHOOSE to suffer, because of love.
So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.
They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.
What made them "fall" as you say, was disobedience, plain and simple.
Adam was created in God's image and likeness because God elected him to be His son.
Adam and Eve were to reproduce their "elect" status and fill the earth with the Image and Likeness of The Elect One.
JLB
G
George Muller
Guest
Not circles JLB, the garden is a picture of "grace" with Christ the Tree of life, "free-will" is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "law" . In "grace" humility we are in a position that cannot fail. Only in self-will "you can be as God" is the disobedience of man. Open your mind and heart to the truth, admit your weakness and God will secure you in His Grace.