Message to GOD"S elect

[Elijah674]

Deborah, your quote is not a statement that Spurgeon did not believe in regeneration as the cause of faith.

What is your definition of regeneration?

Scripturally, it is related to the New Covenant. It is the circumcision of the heart. Even before the New Covenant, Moses speaks of regeneration as a heart circumcision that causes Israel to love God.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is the taking away of the heart of stone and putting in man a heart of flesh which causes obedience to the Law of God.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Regeneration is the placing of the Law upon the heart and causing the person to know God.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Regeneration is being born again
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is being begotten of God and it causes....
righteousness ...... 1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.
and faith....... 1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Regeneration is the washing of the Spirit of God and brings salvation to a person.
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Regeneration is the work of God for man, and not the work of mans faith for God. If regeneration follows faith, it is a needless work of man for we are already justified, we are already pleasing God.
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
If we can have faith without regeneration, then we can please God while still in the flesh. Of course that is unbiblical that we can please God in the flesh.
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So then, if faith pleases God, then we cannot have faith in the flesh. Faith is the work of regeneration. Regeneration happens in an instant and is the work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) and happens as the word of the gospel is being preached, and causes faith in that instant when the word is being preached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8k9Vi-6m9k

If I got it wrong, just ask Johnny Mac, although you might not like him either. Or keep studying Spurgeon, but the more you learn of Spurgeon, you less you might like him.

According to your doctrine, was Adam and Eve God's elect?


JLB

Answer the question? Before sin or after sin? Which is it?

And the way back is totally CONDITIONAL upon Obedience! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

 

[JLB]

Scripturally, it is related to the New Covenant. It is the circumcision of the heart. Even before the New Covenant, Moses speaks of regeneration as a heart circumcision that causes Israel to love God.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is the taking away of the heart of stone and putting in man a heart of flesh which causes obedience to the Law of God.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Regeneration is the placing of the Law upon the heart and causing the person to know God.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Regeneration is being born again
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is being begotten of God and it causes....
righteousness ...... 1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.
and faith....... 1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Regeneration is the washing of the Spirit of God and brings salvation to a person.
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Regeneration is the work of God for man, and not the work of mans faith for God. If regeneration follows faith, it is a needless work of man for we are already justified, we are already pleasing God.
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
If we can have faith without regeneration, then we can please God while still in the flesh. Of course that is unbiblical that we can please God in the flesh.
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So then, if faith pleases God, then we cannot have faith in the flesh. Faith is the work of regeneration. Regeneration happens in an instant and is the work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) and happens as the word of the gospel is being preached, and causes faith in that instant when the word is being preached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8k9Vi-6m9k

If I got it wrong, just ask Johnny Mac, although you might not like him either. Or keep studying Spurgeon, but the more you learn of Spurgeon, you less you might like him.

According to your doctrine, was Adam and Eve God's elect?


JLB

Answer the question? Before sin or after sin? Which is it?

And the way back is totally CONDITIONAL upon Obedience! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

Adam and Eve were either God's elect, or they weren't.

If you say Yes. Then all of their offspring were predestined as elect.

Which would mean God loved the whole world, and it is will that all men would be saved.


If you say no, Then you are saying God made a mistake in creating them.


Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, and were to reproduce His Image and Likeness to fill the earth for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Scripturally, it is related to the New Covenant. It is the circumcision of the heart

I appreciate your long detailed explanation. However regeneration means Salvation does it not? That is what Spurgeon says.

Is a saved person, Believer, EVER called a Sinner? NO Believers are "Saints". Would you agree?

I quote Spurgeon, again, last sentence in the previous post.

"If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

 

[mondar]

Scripturally, it is related to the New Covenant. It is the circumcision of the heart

I appreciate your long detailed explanation. However regeneration means Salvation does it not? That is what Spurgeon says.

Have you ever heard of the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? There is an order of things preformed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation. You could wiki that term, and I am guessing they have something. Within the logical order of things accomplished by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, one of the things is regeneration. Are they identical, no. Are they related? yes. There is no time separation between salvation and regeneration, but there is a logical separation. Just as the term "Regeneration" and "justification" are different, but happen at the same time.

Is a saved person, Believer, EVER called a Sinner? NO Believers are "Saints". Would you agree?

I am not sure what your getting at here. What your saying seems too obvious.

I quote Spurgeon, again, last sentence in the previous post.

"If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

OK, what does this have to do with regeneration? Spurgeon does not mention regeneration in the quote above. Christ came to take his people through the entire ordo salutis. This would include the sacrificial lamb of God, the High Preistly ministry of Christ offering the sacrifice, and the intercessory ministry of Christ, and regeneration, and justification, election, and much more. The whole thing all put together is called "salvation."

 

[JLB]

Have you ever heard of the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? There is an order of things preformed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation. You could wiki that term, and I am guessing they have something. Within the logical order of things accomplished by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, one of the things is regeneration. Are they identical, no. Are they related? yes. There is no time separation between salvation and regeneration, but there is a logical separation. Just as the term "Regeneration" and "justification" are different, but happen at the same time.

Is a saved person, Believer, EVER called a Sinner? NO Believers are "Saints". Would you agree?

I am not sure what your getting at here. What your saying seems too obvious.

I quote Spurgeon, again, last sentence in the previous post.

"If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

OK, what does this have to do with regeneration? Spurgeon does not mention regeneration in the quote above. Christ came to take his people through the entire ordo salutis. This would include the sacrificial lamb of God, the High Preistly ministry of Christ offering the sacrifice, and the intercessory ministry of Christ, and regeneration, and justification, election, and much more. The whole thing all put together is called "salvation."

When you have no scripture to back up your doctrine, you are promoting the doctrines of men, at best.

Wiki, or the catechism, or quoting the council of Trent or referring to the Apostles Creed is just perpetuating MANS RELIGION.

Please use chapter and verse.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Have you ever heard of the "ordo salutis" (order of salvation)? There is an order of things preformed by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation. You could wiki that term, and I am guessing they have something. Within the logical order of things accomplished by the Holy Spirit to accomplish salvation, one of the things is regeneration. Are they identical, no. Are they related? yes. There is no time separation between salvation and regeneration, but there is a logical separation. Just as the term "Regeneration" and "justification" are different, but happen at the same time.

Is a saved person, Believer, EVER called a Sinner? NO Believers are "Saints". Would you agree?

I am not sure what your getting at here. What your saying seems too obvious.

I quote Spurgeon, again, last sentence in the previous post.

"If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

OK, what does this have to do with regeneration? Spurgeon does not mention regeneration in the quote above. Christ came to take his people through the entire ordo salutis. This would include the sacrificial lamb of God, the High Preistly ministry of Christ offering the sacrifice, and the intercessory ministry of Christ, and regeneration, and justification, election, and much more. The whole thing all put together is called "salvation."

OK, what does this have to do with regeneration? Spurgeon does not mention regeneration in the quote above.

What I just quote was the last sentence in that paragraph, about regeneration. Hmm....
His declaration of what he was talking about. Spurgeon states, the regeneration is salvation. And that he is preaching the gospel to sinners, not regenerated people.
I know you get this.....
"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief

 

[Elijah674]

Scripturally, it is related to the New Covenant. It is the circumcision of the heart. Even before the New Covenant, Moses speaks of regeneration as a heart circumcision that causes Israel to love God.
Deu 30:6 And Jehovah thy God will circumcise thy heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

It is the taking away of the heart of stone and putting in man a heart of flesh which causes obedience to the Law of God.
Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;
Eze 11:20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

Regeneration is the placing of the Law upon the heart and causing the person to know God.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:
Jer 31:34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith Jehovah: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.

Regeneration is being born again
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Regeneration is being begotten of God and it causes....
righteousness ...... 1Jn 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one also that doeth righteousness is begotten of him.
and faith....... 1Jn 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Regeneration is the washing of the Spirit of God and brings salvation to a person.
Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Regeneration is the work of God for man, and not the work of mans faith for God. If regeneration follows faith, it is a needless work of man for we are already justified, we are already pleasing God.
Heb 11:6 and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
If we can have faith without regeneration, then we can please God while still in the flesh. Of course that is unbiblical that we can please God in the flesh.
Rom 8:8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God. So then, if faith pleases God, then we cannot have faith in the flesh. Faith is the work of regeneration. Regeneration happens in an instant and is the work of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) and happens as the word of the gospel is being preached, and causes faith in that instant when the word is being preached.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8k9Vi-6m9k

If I got it wrong, just ask Johnny Mac, although you might not like him either. Or keep studying Spurgeon, but the more you learn of Spurgeon, you less you might like him.

According to your doctrine, was Adam and Eve God's elect?


JLB

Answer the question? Before sin or after sin? Which is it?

And the way back is totally CONDITIONAL upon Obedience! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

Adam and Eve were either God's elect, or they weren't.

If you say Yes. Then all of their offspring were predestined as elect.

Which would mean God loved the whole world, and it is will that all men would be saved.


If you say no, Then you are saying God made a mistake in creating them.


Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, and were to reproduce His Image and Likeness to fill the earth for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.


JLB

What a cop/out friend! What kind of answer is that??:naughty

--Elijah

PS: And God said that He made a mistake?? See Gen. 3 and answer the question of what [[like]] one of us means??
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man [[is become as one of us]], to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

But you have them immortal anyway, huh? (that is just another of your 'flawed' teaching)

 

[Guest]

@JLB The way I see it, Adam and Eve were God's elect BEFORE the fall. Then sin came into the world and then we as sinful people had to make a choice to choose God or a fallen world. Was the fall God's plan? Of course not, but in 2013 this is where we are. Now we have to choose. Eternal life or eternal death.

 

[JLB]

Answer the question? Before sin or after sin? Which is it?

And the way back is totally CONDITIONAL upon Obedience! Acts 5:32

--Elijah

Adam and Eve were either God's elect, or they weren't.

If you say Yes. Then all of their offspring were predestined as elect.

Which would mean God loved the whole world, and it is will that all men would be saved.


If you say no, Then you are saying God made a mistake in creating them.


Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, and were to reproduce His Image and Likeness to fill the earth for the purpose of subduing and having dominion.


JLB

What a cop/out friend! What kind of answer is that??:naughty

--Elijah

PS: And God said that He made a mistake?? See Gen. 3 and answer the question of what [[like]] one of us means??
[22] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man [[is become as one of us]], to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

But you have them immortal anyway, huh? (that is just another of your 'flawed' teaching)

What in the world are you talking about?

I asked the question.

Were Adam and Eve God's elect?

That is not a cop out friend. That is a question.

When you tried to answer my question with another question, that is a cop out.

On the day Adam and Eve were created, were they God's elect?

Yes or No?


JLB

 

[mondar]

OK, what does this have to do with regeneration? Spurgeon does not mention regeneration in the quote above.

What I just quote was the last sentence in that paragraph, about regeneration. Hmm....
His declaration of what he was talking about. Spurgeon states, the regeneration is salvation. And that he is preaching the gospel to sinners, not regenerated people.
I know you get this.....
"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief

Deborah, you are repeating a bad argument that I already answered. I am guessing you do not understand the previous answer I gave and so you are repeating your previous post. Maybe you think I did not understand what you are saying. What you are saying is all to old and obvious. I have seen confusion like what you are presenting many times before. Non-Calvinists regularly and consistently are confused on regeneration and equate it with salvation. Spurgeon knew the difference and is in now way making them totally equal.

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." Spurgeon is not saying that regeneration is the same thing as salvation. Spurgeon is saying this in reference to Hyper-Calvinists who say that we should only evangelize the elect (actually in Spurgeons sermon he quotes Hyper-Calvinists as saying we should evangelize only the regenerate). I already demonstrated the context of Spurgeons quote to you that it is in reference to Hyper-Calvinism. You fail to acknowledge it. Maybe you fail to understand what is being said, so you are repeating your previous post that I already answered.

Regeneration is a part of the logical order of salvation, but it does not equal salvation. So then, Spurgeon can say to Hyper-Calvinists that those who are regenerate are already saved. That is because in particular baptist or regular baptist, or reformed baptist theology the instant regeneration occurs, a person is saved. This does not mean that regeneration and salvation are the same thing.

That would be similar to saying that election is the same thing as salvation. Well, all elect people will be saved, but the two terms to not mean the same thing.

Please look at this. http://www.theopedia.com/Ordo_salutis
In the logical progression of salvation, where in the list do you see the term "salvation." Why do you think the term "salvation" does not appear in the list? The answer to that question is so painfully obvious, one can only laugh at the silly question. The word salvation cannot be used in the ordo salutis because the list is the logical order of salvation. Now the order is not speaking of a time chronology, but merely a logical order. If one part of the ordo salutis were salvation then the entire list would not be an "order." Is that not painfully obvious? So then, is it not also painfully obvious that any one item in that order is not the same thing as the whole order?

Deborah, please, if you post again, do not repeat yourself as you are now doing. I understand the quote, I have answered what you said twice now. Your not addressing my answers, but just repeating your same question about Spurgeon being an Arminian.

 

[mondar]

Tit 3:5 not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
The concept that regeneration is the same thing as salvation makes Titus 3:5 nonsense. If Christ saved us through the action of the Holy Spirit called regeneration, then why would the Holy Spirit regeneration. Christ already saved us, why would the Spirit have to do anything?

The doctrine that teaches that regeneration is the same thing as salvation fails to understand how the entire Trinity of the God head is involved in Salvation. Is it that shocking that they all work together and at the same time. If the Holy Spirit preforms the action of regeneration, does that mean that we must see it as the same thing as Christs high priestly ministry of being a mediator? Why is it so hard to see that there are different and distinct aspects of one salvation. Would you say that the Son and the Holy Spirit are not distinct persons? Certainly they are one God, but they are also distinct persons. I was saved by a Trinitarian God preforming different aspects of the one and same salvation. I was saved by the Spirts action of regeneration, but I was also saved by the Shed Blood of Christ. They are not the same thing, and they are not the same persons of the Trinity. Why is this so confusing and hard to see?

 

[George Muller]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

What scriptures?? If the chosen are predestined then so is our pain and suffering, which doesn't make sense. Because there's no growth in our suffering if we all knew it was predestined.

Not sure of your point? The term "predestined" is to be understood in its context, to be conformed unto the Image of Christ. Of course as Christ was "predestined" to suffer, we are also to suffer with Him in the process of being conformed to His Image.

 

[George Muller]

I am still waiting for an answer to my last post.


Was Adam and Eve God's elect? [CM]




JLB

According to "grace" had they remained in "grace" they would not have fallen. Same truth abides today for all who come to His Grace, "election" is based upon "grace" God gives "grace" to the humble, not the "self-willed".

 

[Deborah13]

Spurgeon is not saying that regeneration is the same thing as salvation.

No, he is saying that if one IS regenerated they ARE saved. They can't be regenerated and Not be saved.

Spurgeon is saying this in reference to Hyper-Calvinists who say that we should only evangelize the elect

I know Why he said what he said. But that wasn't my point as to why he said it, but what he said.
And the only reason I brought is because of those, that believe one can be regenerated but not know it and be going along in their sinful life, unaware that they have been regenerated, thus saved. Which would mean that one is not justified by faith. Because if one has faith unto salvation, they know it.
So I have tried to make my simple language clear.

Blessings of God to You

 

[George Muller]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

Yes, it does. I don't hear anyone denying that fact.

What is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Does God COMMAND all people to be saved and NOT GIVE them away to do that?

God says to RECONCIL ourselves to Him. But not give a way to do that???

That is the scripture that few of the Calvinist can explain. What could they say?

One Calvinist did explain that and preached against regeneration (salvation) before faith! His name was SPURGEON. He laid the blame on man for not being saved. That is the truth, it is man's fault if he does not accept the Lord. Spurgeon, that if a man does not, it because he "would not".
Many say, that he "could not". It is man's fault, NOT God's fault.

Accepting Jesus, is a command, repenting is a command. There's nothing wishy-washy about it. Accepting Jesus, is not about feelings, or pride, or any such man nonsense. God just said "Do it!" Trust God that Jesus is the Savior and trust Him. Put your trust in Him. God already reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, now we are to reconcile ourselves to that truth. God will change the heart of stone.

I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".

 

[George Muller]

You miss the point.

I'm not saying the fruit comes from man.

I'm saying the fruit or by product of the Spirit is self control.

That means a person has self control.

When a person has self control that is a fruit of the Spirit.

Well if its a "fruit" of the Spirit, that means this "inward-ability" is according to the Spirits will and not the will of mans natural ability. So not sure what point you think your making?

 

[Deborah13]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

Yes, it does. I don't hear anyone denying that fact.

What is FOREKNOWLEDGE.

Does God COMMAND all people to be saved and NOT GIVE them away to do that?

God says to RECONCIL ourselves to Him. But not give a way to do that???

That is the scripture that few of the Calvinist can explain. What could they say?

One Calvinist did explain that and preached against regeneration (salvation) before faith! His name was SPURGEON. He laid the blame on man for not being saved. That is the truth, it is man's fault if he does not accept the Lord. Spurgeon, that if a man does not, it because he "would not".
Many say, that he "could not". It is man's fault, NOT God's fault.

Accepting Jesus, is a command, repenting is a command. There's nothing wishy-washy about it. Accepting Jesus, is not about feelings, or pride, or any such man nonsense. God just said "Do it!" Trust God that Jesus is the Savior and trust Him. Put your trust in Him. God already reconciled Himself to the world through His Son, now we are to reconcile ourselves to that truth. God will change the heart of stone.

I did not see a scripture? Quote the scripture and then we can discuss it in its context. But just because some have questions they cannot understand does not prove anything, but Gods wisdom and great salvation is hidden from those who boast and is made known unto the humble. It is impossible for the pride of mans religion to understand the mystery, so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed".

"so do not be surprised if many questions belong to the "self-willed"

Seeing that is your attitude, not bother.

 

[Guest]

The scriptures show in absolute and in clear terms that all that are saved where "predestined" it cannot be challenged by such a silly term as "free-will".

What scriptures?? If the chosen are predestined then so is our pain and suffering, which doesn't make sense. Because there's no growth in our suffering if we all knew it was predestined.

Not sure of your point? The term "predestined" is to be understood in its context, to be conformed unto the Image of Christ. Of course as Christ was "predestined" to suffer, we are also to suffer with Him in the process of being conformed to His Image.

I'm talking about God's people being predestined to be chosen. I think that's false. If God already hand picked his people throughout time, then what's the point of preaching his Word. Do you think Romans 10:9 is a choice we make. (because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.) Did Christ not CHOOSE to suffer, because of love.

 

[JLB]

I am still waiting for an answer to my last post.


Was Adam and Eve God's elect? [CM]




JLB

According to "grace" had they remained in "grace" they would not have fallen. Same truth abides today for all who come to His Grace, "election" is based upon "grace" God gives "grace" to the humble, not the "self-willed".

So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.

They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.

What made them "fall" as you say, was disobedience, plain and simple.

Adam was created in God's image and likeness because God elected him to be His son.

Adam and Eve were to reproduce their "elect" status and fill the earth with the Image and Likeness of The Elect One.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

So instead of answering the simple question, you are going to talk in circles.

They were created in the image of God sinless, and had the benefit of eternal life.

Not circles JLB, the garden is a picture of "grace" with Christ the Tree of life, "free-will" is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "law" . In "grace" humility we are in a position that cannot fail. Only in self-will "you can be as God" is the disobedience of man. Open your mind and heart to the truth, admit your weakness and God will secure you in His Grace.