More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[JLB]

Of course I do. Everyone was a sinner in the OT...with a few holy exceptions.

Obviously you don’t.


Jesus doesn’t instruct sinners to go and do the work of the ministry of the Church.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

You "heard of" it, about Jesus.
What did He have that we have been denied?

Since our rebirth from God's seed, God is the Father of both Jesus and us.
We have the gift of the Holy Ghost, just as He did.
We have an open channel of prayer.
We are both sanctified and justified.

I pray you will change your mind.

What did Jesus have that we don't have?
Good question.
Here are some answers:

1. Jesus is God....a member of the Trinity. We are not.

2. We had to be reborn from God's seed, as you put it. Jesus did not. He WAS the seed.

3. We are born of 2 persons that passed the sin nature on to us. Jesus was born of Mary who was born without the sin nature so she could be the Mother of Jesus, and His Father was the Holy Spirit.

4. Being born by two with the sin nature, we also inherit the sin nature. Jesus did not have the sin nature...He did not descend from Adam, but from God Father....He existed forever.

5. Jesus prayed, healed the sick and cast out demons. Some can do this even today...but not all of us can.

6. We have the gift of the Holy Spirit....Jesus did not. The Holy Spirit and Jesus are part of The Father...Jesus gifted us the Holy Spirit,,,He did not need the Holy Spirit as it lived IN Him. He was EMPOWERED by the Holy Spirit for His ministry. This is one of the works of the Holy Spirit.

7. You say we are both justified and sanctified. Jesus didn't need to be justified...He was ALWAYS right with God.
Jesus didn't need to be sanctified because He was perfect so that He could accomplish for us what we could not.


As I've mentioned to you on other occasions, it really is disturbing for some new Christians to hear that they could live perfectly sinless lives and then discover that they cannot and thus have doubts about their Christianity --- maybe even giving up in desperation. I know I can't change you mind and you won't change mine --- could you please just stop speaking about this so I could continue to read your very good posts on other matters and you don't get yourself banned?? Please do this.

 

[JLB]

Careful there...calling a work of God a result of "spirit error" and "not of the Holy Ghost" is blasphemy.

Since you are teaching directly against Christ and His instructions for His Church concerning a brother who sins, it’s abundantly clear you are teaching error, which is not from the Spirit of Christ.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17


This teaching is for Christians; brothers and sisters in Christ.


Likewise the next passage is also —


“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:18-20


Again these instructions are for the Church.


Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22


As well as these instructions.

All these instructions given by the Lord Jesus Christ are for the Church.


Wouldn‘t you agree?



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

The only one that was sinless in the whole Bible was Jesus. All the Prophets and Apostles struggled with sin like all of us today. Go read the Bible and you will see this for yourself since you do not believe us.

What sin did Enoch commit?
Elijah?
John the baptist?
Jesus committed no sin, but we are now allowed a way to be in Him so can be sinless too.
I rejoice in that ability to serve one Master.

Hopeful why do you not believe the scriptures for what has already been written?

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

As "my" flesh and blood were destroyed at my baptism into Christ, killing the old man, what I walk around in now is "His" flesh and blood.
I belong to Him.
Like Paul writes in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

 

[JLB]

As "my" flesh and blood were destroyed at my baptism into Christ, killing the old man, what I walk around in now is "His" flesh and blood.
I belong to Him.

I warned you about this.



JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

Do you understand the post ?

I do. But do you understand why I asked the question I did in post #5?

Lets talk about what I posted, after all thats why I posted it. When I post something thats an Q on what I want to discuss, doesnt that make sense ?

In what way do you want to discuss it with me? IOW, can you describe what you would like me to say about it?

 

[Serving Zion]

This is where your “indoctrination” gets exposed.

You have to twist the plain truth of the scriptures to explain away whatever doesn’t fit into your “indoctrination mold”.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18;15-17


Jesus is teaching His disciples, how to deal with a brother, a brother in Christ who sins, and His disciples continue to pass on His teaching to their disciples, even to this day.

These instructions are for the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.




You have deceived yourself, as the scriptures themselves testify.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


The blood of Jesus was shed to be the final sacrifice for sins, both for the Church and for the whole world.

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

As we can all see, “ours” refers not to the world but is a reference to Christians; the Church


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2



Warning:


No longer will you be allowed to promote your false “sinless perfection” doctrine in this Forum.

If you do, your privileges will be suspended.


You are welcome here and you are loved. Please engage in discussions in the Forum freely, as I believe you have a lot to share and I agree with much of your posts.


However, do not post elements of the “sinless perfection“ doctrine which include, but are not limited to the following:

• Insinuating a person was never saved if they commit a sin.
• Promoting the idea that the confession and forgives of sin is not for born again Christians. (1 John 1:9)
• Claiming that that our physical body “literally dies” and is physically resurrected from the dead as a sinless body at water baptism.

JLB




for_his_glory
stovebolts
Serving Zion
Truthfrees

Well JLB, I think you're right to interpret Matthew 18:15-17 as being applicable in context of brothers and sisters in Christ, but I also think that Hopeful has made a good point by referring indirectly to 1 John 2:10. See, the Christian spirit is full of mercy and love, and love rejoices with the truth - so even if one of our brethren is offended, if they are offended while we are perfect in love, then the love covers the multitude of transgression and brings healing through confession. But, there is a possibility too that one who does not love his brother will instead manifest sinfulness, having its root in pride, and leading to a manifestation of wrath. Therefore, we are advised in Galatians to "bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ". It seems to me that what Hopeful has described of those who walk in the flesh is also found in large part among the brothers and sisters who haven't matured and purged themselves of the world's ways, because Romans 12:2 shows that it takes time to put off the former thinking and to be renewed, and furthermore Hebrews 5:11-14 shows that it is possible for those who have been mature to have become again infantile and needing to turn back toward growing for maturity in Christ.

 

[JLB]

Well JLB, I think you're right to interpret Matthew 18:15-17 as being applicable in context of brothers and sisters in Christ, but I also think that Hopeful has made a good point by referring indirectly to 1 John 2:10. See, the Christian spirit is full of mercy and love, and love rejoices with the truth - so even if one of our brethren is offended, if they are offended while we are perfect in love, then the love covers the multitude of transgression and brings healing through confession. But, there is a possibility too that one who does not love his brother will instead manifest sinfulness, having its root in pride, and leading to a manifestation of wrath. Therefore, we are advised in Galatians to "bear one another's burdens and so fulfil the law of Christ". It seems to me that what Hopeful has described of those who walk in the flesh is also found in large part among the brothers and sisters who haven't matured and purged themselves of the world's ways, because Romans 12:2 shows that it takes time to put off the former thinking and to be renewed, and furthermore Hebrews 5:11-14 shows that it is possible for those who have been mature to have become again infantile and needing to turn back toward growing for maturity in Christ.

Again, if you go back and read the many posts in which I responded to hopeful you will see that I told him agree with him about many things.

However it is this point that I don’t agree, which is the teaching directly against Jesus Christ about dealing with a brother who sins.

This is where I draw the line.


There are some things in scripture where we will disagree and I acknowledge that, some things that may be vague.


However, there are some things that we as Christians must take a stand for, which if we get wrong it will cost us our eternal salvation, such as Jesus Christ being the only way to God.

Those who teach directly against Jesus Christ are teaching “anti” Christ doctrine. Anti means against.


Here is the scripture that I ask you and everyone to please read.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

• Teaching God’s people that the forgiveness of sins is not for them will not be tolerated in this Forum.

I have patiently and diligently gone to him and worked to discuss this with him.


I asked another to work with him about this matter.


I then got for_his_glory and stovebolts to work with him to convince him to turn away from the spreading of this blatant false teaching which teaches directly against Christ and what He taught about how to restore a brother who sins.


I gave him time and finally I gave him a final warning, telling him that he is loved, and that I agree with him about much of what he teaches, but this teaching where he says forgiveness of sins is not for Christians; that if a Christian sins he was never really saved to begin with, will not be tolerated.


I’m sorry if you don’t agree with me removing him from this thread.



As a note, I will add this from a paragraph from the Strongs concordance about the term “antichrist”.


John, the only writer in the N. T. who uses it, [five times]; he employs it of the corrupt power and influence hostile to Christian interests, especially that which is at work in false teachers who have come from the bosom of the church and are engaged in disseminating error:

G500 - antichristos - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G500 - ἀντίχριστος antíchristos, an-tee'-khris-tos; from and ; an opponent of the Messiah:—antichrist.

www.blueletterbible.org

I don’t think I have ever used this word “antichrist” in relation to a false teaching before, but it kept coming up in my spirit as I prayed about this situation.


I don’t intend to use this term “antichrist” loosely, however I felt the need to share it in this post.





JLB

 

[Serving Zion]

However it is this point that I don’t agree, which is the teaching directly against Jesus Christ about dealing with a brother who sins.

This is where I draw the line.

I agree with you at that. It's going way too far into stretch to say that Jesus was not intending to instruct the modern church by it. That's the natural end of the path when someone takes a false step and rather than turning back, is pressed and pressed in order to explain it in spite of obvious truths. It's only possible for a person to repent of his error if a) he has sufficient trust of those who witness his confession (consider Galatians 6:1c "considering yourself lest you also be tempted"), or b) he is confident enough in his ability to withstand any insult or reputational harm that may occur through having revealed his error.

Teaching God’s people that the forgiveness of sins is not for them will not be tolerated in this Forum.

I think that's a good call!

I then got @for_his_glory and @stovebolts to work with him to convince him to turn away from the spreading of this blatant false teaching which teaches directly against Christ and what He taught about how to restore a brother who sins.

He's obviously very resolved then. "Can anyone break iron?" (Jeremiah 15:12)

I’m sorry if you don’t agree with me removing him from this thread.

It's probably not good for us to discuss it here then since he can't reply, that would be frustrating for him. I didn't know that you had banned him from the thread when I mentioned him above.

 

[brightfame52]

And in chapter three he said who they were.

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (2 Cor. 3:13-16 KJV)


37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Jn. 12:37-40 KJV)

Chapter 3 doesnt change anything, the Gospel is still hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 and that results in unbelief !

 

[brightfame52]

If… if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


It’s hidden because the god of this world has blinded them.


Jesus says it this way —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believing results in salvation.





JLB

Thats part of being lost, being blinded by satan.

 

[brightfame52]

I do. But do you understand why I asked the question I did in post #5?

In what way do you want to discuss it with me? IOW, can you describe what you would like me to say about it?

Huh ? Well what does the post says ? How do i seek to explain my view with scripture ?

 

[Serving Zion]

Huh ? Well what does the post says ? How do i seek to explain my view with scripture ?

This is what I meant. You've already said what was said in the OP. There's no point asking me to repeat it. That was proven in the past. Why won't you answer my questions?

 

[brightfame52]

This is what I meant. You've already said what was said in the OP. There's no point asking me to repeat it. That was proven in the past. Why won't you answer my questions?

Your questions are diversions from discussing my posts. You want me to put effort into answering your verses you go find, and yet put zero effort in the posts I have already put effort into.

 

[Butch5]

Chapter 3 doesnt change anything, the Gospel is still hidden to them that are lost 2 Cor 4:3-4 and that results in unbelief !

Chapter 3 tells us who was blinded. It was Israel. It's not as the Calvinist would claim, that anyone who is not a believer is blinded. That's not what Paul is saying. We've got to keep the Scriptures in context if we're going to understand them correctly.

 

[Serving Zion]

Your questions are diversions from discussing my posts. You want me to put effort into answering your verses you go find, and yet put zero effort in the posts I have already put effort into.

Well, you are wrong about that.

 

[for_his_glory]

What sin did Enoch commit?
Elijah?
John the baptist?
Jesus committed no sin, but we are now allowed a way to be in Him so can be sinless too.
I rejoice in that ability to serve one Master.

As "my" flesh and blood were destroyed at my baptism into Christ, killing the old man, what I walk around in now is "His" flesh and blood.
I belong to Him.
Like Paul writes in Gal 2:20..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Romans 7:7-25 Paul, even after his conversion struggled with sin.

Ephesians 4:13 none of us are yet in the fullness of Christ as none of us are yet perfect, complete, full-grown and completely mature in the Lord. Our Spiritual inner man is perfect as that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, but yet in this fleshly body we all have a sin nature that can not be controlled. This verse does not teach that we will stop sinning and that is why Jesus is our mediator before the Father in whom forgives us of our sins when we confess them.

Colossians 1:28 and 4:12 Paul wants to present every man perfect in Christ, but none of us will be completely mature or full grown in the knowledge of the Lord until this mortal puts on immortality and this corruptibe will have put on inncorruptibe when Christ returns and we are then changed in order to be caught up to Him in the air.

No matter how hard we try not to sin, we will fall short at times. Paul rebuked Peter for the sin of favoritism in Galatians 2:11-13. Even after Paul's conversion he called himself the chief of sinners and spoke of Jesus Christ longsuffering for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting, 1 Timothy 1:15, 16.

Peter, James, John and Paul all admitted they were imperfect so how could anyone claim they are perfect. Perfection will not come until the transition of 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. When we stand at the judgement seat of Christ were our works will be judged and rewards will be given is when our redemption will be complete for we are only sealed by the Holy Spirit until that day, 2 Corinthians 5:10; 1 Corinthians 3:9-15; Ephesians 4:30.

We are only sealed by the Holy Spirit, but not yet saved as there is much we will have to endure until the end when Christ returns, Matthew 24:13.

Telling people that if you are a Christian then you are perfect without sin is a false teaching from the lies of Satan and will cause many to fall away as they feel they would never be worthy to be called a child of God. God is not going to discipline those who are not His own, but to His own He will send the Holy Spirit to convict us when we do sin and grace calls us to repent of our sin as we walk by faith looking for the day of our redemption.

 

[JLB]

Your questions are diversions from discussing my posts. You want me to put effort into answering your verses you go find, and yet put zero effort in the posts I have already put effort into.

This member of the staff asked you a question, plain and simple.

He made no diversion to your question.


Please do not “make up things he did not do”, to avoid answering his question.


That is misrepresenting him.




JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Chapter 3 tells us who was blinded. It was Israel. It's not as the Calvinist would claim, that anyone who is not a believer is blinded. That's not what Paul is saying. We've got to keep the Scriptures in context if we're going to understand them correctly.

Chapter 4 states that the Lost are blinded. Read it, 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Being lost has no respect of persons, all men whether jew or gentile are born lost sinners sir. Read Paul here Rom 3:9

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

[brightfame52]

Well, you are wrong about that.

Prove it.