More on Redemption ! Secures unto us our regeneration

[brightfame52]

Yes, I understand that.
Perhaps you should reiterate what point you are trying to make, in a short sentence or two?
Get us back to the basic theme?

Reiterate it ? I have already !

 

[Hopeful]

Reiterate it ? I have already !

I guess I joined too late to get back on the track.

 

[JLB]

Jesus was addressing OT men who still walked in the flesh.

This is where your “indoctrination” gets exposed.

You have to twist the plain truth of the scriptures to explain away whatever doesn’t fit into your “indoctrination mold”.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18;15-17


Jesus is teaching His disciples, how to deal with a brother, a brother in Christ who sins, and His disciples continue to pass on His teaching to their disciples, even to this day.

These instructions are for the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.




You have deceived yourself, as the scriptures themselves testify.


If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10


The blood of Jesus was shed to be the final sacrifice for sins, both for the Church and for the whole world.

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

As we can all see, “ours” refers not to the world but is a reference to Christians; the Church


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2



Warning:


No longer will you be allowed to promote your false “sinless perfection” doctrine in this Forum.

If you do, your privileges will be suspended.


You are welcome here and you are loved. Please engage in discussions in the Forum freely, as I believe you have a lot to share and I agree with much of your posts.


However, do not post elements of the “sinless perfection“ doctrine which include, but are not limited to the following:

• Insinuating a person was never saved if they commit a sin.
• Promoting the idea that the confession and forgives of sin is not for born again Christians. (1 John 1:9)
• Claiming that that our physical body “literally dies” and is physically resurrected from the dead as a sinless body at water baptism.

JLB




for_his_glory
stovebolts
Serving Zion
Truthfrees

 

[for_his_glory]

Sinless perfection

Sinless perfection came from the teachings of John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context to support their theories and man made doctrines.

This website above explains this massive stumbling block that is place before others that yet have little knowledge and are easily deceived into believing a lie.

 

[Hopeful]

This is where your “indoctrination” gets exposed.
You have to twist the plain truth of the scriptures to explain away whatever doesn’t fit into your “indoctrination mold”.

Had Jesus died and been raised from the dead at this point in the narrative?
No.
He lived according to Laws that were eclipsed after His resurrection.
The audience were OT men.

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18;15-17
Jesus is teaching His disciples, how to deal with a brother, a brother in Christ who sins, and His disciples continue to pass on His teaching to their disciples, even to this day.
These instructions are for the Church of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You have deceived yourself, as the scriptures themselves testify.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:8-10
The blood of Jesus was shed to be the final sacrifice for sins, both for the Church and for the whole world.

• And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

As we can all see, “ours” refers not to the world but is a reference to Christians; the Church


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

It is also written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:4)
Doesn't that mean no sinner "knows Him"?
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)

Warning:
No longer will you be allowed to promote your false “sinless perfection” doctrine in this Forum.

If you do, your privileges will be suspended.


You are welcome here and you are loved. Please engage in discussions in the Forum freely, as I believe you have a lot to share and I agree with much of your posts.
However, do not post elements of the “sinless perfection“ doctrine which include, but are not limited to the following:

• Insinuating a person was never saved if they commit a sin.
• Promoting the idea that the confession and forgives of sin is not for born again Christians. (1 John 1:9)
• Claiming that that our physical body “literally dies” and is physically resurrected from the dead as a sinless body at water baptism.

JLB
for_his_glory
stovebolts
Serving Zion
Truthfrees

 

[JLB]

Had Jesus died and been raised from the dead at this point in the narrative?
No.
He lived according to Laws that were eclipsed after His resurrection.
The audience were OT men.

Can you read and understand the words of Jesus Christ; the instructions He gave to His disciples about how to deal with a brother who sins?


Do you believe these are instructions to the Church?

• And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church.

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Matthew 18:15-17




JLB

 

[JLB]

It is also written..."He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
(1 John 2:4)
Doesn't that mean no sinner "knows Him"?
"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." (1 John 2:6)

A brother who lives his life breaking His commandments is a liar, if he says I know Him.


A brother who sins and repents when confronted continues in fellowship with his brethren and the Lord.


“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15

• If he hears you, you have gained your brother.

A brother who sins, and then repents remain a brother in Christ.

Only if he refuses to repent after being confronted by two or three brothers and then the Church, is he considered to be a heathen and tax collector.


This is the teaching of the New Testament, and are the words of Jesus Christ; instructions for His disciples to practice and to teach to the Church.

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20



Do you believe the teachings of Christ in the Gospels is for the Church?



Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22


Do you believe we are to forgive a brother who sins against us?







JLB

 

[Hopeful]

A brother who lives his life breaking His commandments is a liar, if he says I know Him.
A brother who sins and repents when confronted continues in fellowship with his brethren and the Lord.
“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. Matthew 18:15

• If he hears you, you have gained your brother

A brother who sins, and then repents remain a brother in Christ.
Only if he refuses to repent after being confronted by two or three brothers and then the Church, is he considered to be a heathen and tax collector.
This is the teaching of the New Testament, and are the words of Jesus Christ; instructions for His disciples to practice and to teach to the Church.

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:19-20
Do you believe the teachings of Christ in the Gospels is for the Church?
Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. Matthew 18:21-22

Do you believe we are to forgive a brother who sins against us?

If I were an Israeli forgiving another Israeli, like whom Jesus is speaking to...yes.
As my Father is now God almighty, I have no brothers that commit sin.
If an unbeliever sins against me, I will forgive him.

 

[JLB]

If I were an Israeli forgiving another Israeli, like whom Jesus is speaking to...yes.
As my Father is now God almighty, I have no brothers that commit sin.
If an unbeliever sins against me, I will forgive him.

I know you can read the word "church".

“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church...

By context, "brothers" refer to brothers in Christ.


These are instructions for the church of the Lord Jesus Christ.



Do you believe the Beatitudes are for the church?


How about forgiveness ?



Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:1-2




JLB

 

[JLB]

If I were an Israeli forgiving another Israeli, like whom Jesus is speaking to...yes.

Do you even realize what you are implying by this statement?


You are implying that Jesus is instructing sinners, people who walk in the flesh, to go and tell another sinner to turn away from his sin.


Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church...



Like I said, this is where your indoctrination gets exposed (the stronghold that is entrenched in your mind), so that you only see the knowledge of God, the scripture, through the “lense” of your indoctrination.

Your ”theology“ is driven by a spirit of error, not the Holy Spirit.


I am praying for you, that the Lord will remove this stronghold that was constructed in your mind, when you first came to the Lord as a young Christian, hungry for the truth. I believe the Spirit of truth will deliver you from this indoctrination.







JLB

 

[Butch5]

I know what it says, and understand what it means, apparently you dont, and you not listening to me.

I'm listening to you. I'm just telling you that you're using the passage out of context. You're saying that anyone who isn't a believer is blinded. That isn't what Paul said. Firstly, there are three types of people regarding the Gospel. There are those who have heard and believe. There are those who have heard and don't believe. And, there are those who have never heard. Those who have never heard the Gospel don't disbelieve the Gospel. One has to hear it in order to disbelieve it. So, these people haven't been blinded. The ones who have been blinded are those who have disbelieved the Gospel, they heard it. Here is who was blinded.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Cor. 3:5-17 KJV),

They were blinded. The veil was upon their hearts. It's pretty clear who Paul is saying was blinded as long as we keep the passage in context. We can't just take passages of Scripture, rip them from their context and say they mean what we want them to mean.

 

[JLB]

I'm listening to you. I'm just telling you that you're using the passage out of context. You're saying that anyone who isn't a believer is blinded. That isn't what Paul said. Firstly, there are three types of people regarding the Gospel. There are those who have heard and believe. There are those who have heard and don't believe. And, there are those who have never heard. Those who have never heard the Gospel don't disbelieve the Gospel. One has to hear it in order to disbelieve it. So, these people haven't been blinded. The ones who have been blinded are those who have disbelieved the Gospel, they heard it. Here is who was blinded.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Cor. 3:5-17 KJV),

They were blinded. The veil was upon their hearts. It's pretty clear who Paul is saying was blinded as long as we keep the passage in context. We can't just take passages of Scripture, rip them from their context and say they mean what we want them to mean.

Yes, and when we understand that “the elect“ is a reference to Israel, and that it was the Jews who rejected the Gospel, and were blinded, we can rightly conclude that some of the elect were blinded.


Whch is why Paul made this statement —


Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


This plainly shows the elect don’t automatically receive salvation.





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

I'm listening to you. I'm just telling you that you're using the passage out of context. You're saying that anyone who isn't a believer is blinded. That isn't what Paul said. Firstly, there are three types of people regarding the Gospel. There are those who have heard and believe. There are those who have heard and don't believe. And, there are those who have never heard. Those who have never heard the Gospel don't disbelieve the Gospel. One has to hear it in order to disbelieve it. So, these people haven't been blinded. The ones who have been blinded are those who have disbelieved the Gospel, they heard it. Here is who was blinded.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (2 Cor. 3:5-17 KJV),

They were blinded. The veil was upon their hearts. It's pretty clear who Paul is saying was blinded as long as we keep the passage in context. We can't just take passages of Scripture, rip them from their context and say they mean what we want them to mean.

Paul says that them which are lost, to them the Gospel is hidden, its hidden to them that are lost which results in unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Butch5]

Paul says that them which are lost, to them the Gospel is hidden, its hidden to them that are lost which results in unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And in chapter three he said who they were.

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (2 Cor. 3:13-16 KJV)


37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (Jn. 12:37-40 KJV)

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes thats what it says 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

As long as a person is in a lost state, the Gospel is hidden, their minds are blinded resulting in unbelief !

The god of this world has blinded,,,present tense,,,the minds of them which believe not?

Please clarify:
I thought calvinism teaches that man is BORN totally depraved, dead as a door nail, and unable to choose God.

So is man born dead, blind and deaf, or does satan make him this way?

 

[JLB]

Paul says that them which are lost, to them the Gospel is hidden, its hidden to them that are lost which results in unbelief 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If… if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


It’s hidden because the god of this world has blinded them.


Jesus says it this way —


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believing results in salvation.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Sinless perfection

Sinless perfection came from the teachings of John Wesley, Charles Wesley, John Fletcher of the 18th century in whom founded the "Holiness movement". What they teach about sinless perfection are only taught in their own theology as they take scripture out of context to support their theories and man made doctrines.

This website above explains this massive stumbling block that is place before others that yet have little knowledge and are easily deceived into believing a lie.

I once attended a church that taught that a person has the ability not to sin.
If they did, they lost their salvation.
This sounded very wrong to me even though I was not familiar with the bible at all.

I left that church.
Later, I came to find out that the pastor was stealing monies belonging to the church fund.
The Pope goes to confession once a week.

I very much agree with your statement that the statements of Hopeful could be very discouraging to others.

I like his posts and other doctrines. It's my hope that he can stop statements regarding sinless perfection,,,which I have not witnessed in any human ...

 

[Hopeful]

Do you even realize what you are implying by this statement?

Of course I do. Everyone was a sinner in the OT...with a few holy exceptions.

You are implying that Jesus is instructing sinners, people who walk in the flesh, to go and tell another sinner to turn away from his sin.

As you don't even believe there are non-sinners in the OT, why are you so amazed those of the OT were all sinners?

Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church...
Like I said, this is where your indoctrination gets exposed (the stronghold that is entrenched in your mind), so that you only see the knowledge of God, the scripture, through the “lense” of your indoctrination.
Your ”theology“ is driven by a spirit of error, not the Holy Spirit.

Careful there...calling a work of God a result of "spirit error" and "not of the Holy Ghost" is blasphemy.
In the name of Jesus Christ I forgive you.
Do you really suppose that freedom from the flesh, with the affections and lusts, and from ungodliness, and from the devil, is not of God?

I am praying for you, that the Lord will remove this stronghold that was constructed in your mind, when you first came to the Lord as a young Christian, hungry for the truth. I believe the Spirit of truth will deliver you from this indoctrination.

You are "praying" I go back into sin and start manifesting I am still of Adam's seed?
No thanks.

 

[Hopeful]

I once attended a church that taught that a person has the ability not to sin.
If they did, they lost their salvation.
This sounded very wrong to me even though I was not familiar with the bible at all.

I left that church.
Later, I came to find out that the pastor was stealing monies belonging to the church fund.
The Pope goes to confession once a week.

I very much agree with your statement that the statements of Hopeful could be very discouraging to others.

I like his posts and other doctrines. It's my hope that he can stop statements regarding sinless perfection,,,which I have not witnessed in any human ...

You "heard of" it, about Jesus.
What did He have that we have been denied?

Since our rebirth from God's seed, God is the Father of both Jesus and us.
We have the gift of the Holy Ghost, just as He did.
We have an open channel of prayer.
We are both sanctified and justified.

I pray you will change your mind.

 

[for_his_glory]

As you don't even believe there are non-sinners in the OT, why are you so amazed those of the OT were all sinners?

The only one that was sinless in the whole Bible was Jesus. All the Prophets and Apostles struggled with sin like all of us today. Go read the Bible and you will see this for yourself since you do not believe us.

Hopeful why do you not believe the scriptures for what has already been written?

1Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?