Murder

[Mysteryman]

if you accept them!
does the lord force us to get saved?

i think not

whomsoever will come in no wise will i cast away.

Hi Jason

No, its not about God forceing anything upon us. There is much more to it than this. When God promised Abraham that he would have a son, and to name him Isaac. What kind of a person was Isaac ?

God made Isaace within his mother's womb. As he does all of us. However, God has foreknowledge, which means he would not have chosen you if he foreknew that you would be anything other than one of his sons. Predestination is based upon God's foreknowledge. He foreknew us before we were born, or even before we were in our mothers womb.

God didn't force us to beleive him. He knew we would believe. We still had and always will have free will. But God foreknew that our choice would be the same choice by which he chose us. Remember two things. He didn't choose us because he knew we would choose him. He choose us because he had a purpose . This purpose goes way beyond just being saved. Many are called, but few are chosen. The chosen few are the one's who are a part of the body of Christ. The many that are called are not. They are followers of Christ. Jesus said that there were two folds. And that my sheep hear my voice.

You see, everyone needed salvation. But a Christians salvation is special. We are of the promised seed. Others are saved , and by grace as well . So when the scriptures tells us that one needs to repent, which actually means to change. Change is for all, and is represented by the fact that we all needed to change.

But our salvation is not based upon our repentance. It is based upon the fact that we are already saved by grace.

Chosen Christians, are born again with the promised seed of Christ in them, the day they are born. They are already born with the fact that they need not repent to be saved, but change , because they are already saved . In the first epistle of John we notice that our seed does not sin. Our flesh can, but not the Christ in us. This is why we can not commit murder. We can become very angry and might desire to commit an unforgivable sin, but God will intervene in some way, and we will come back to our right mind. We have the commandments in our hearts, and our conscience bothers us tremendously when we sin agains our hearts. We would also be sinning against the nature of our seed of Christ in us.

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

calvinism mixed with arianism interesting.

true that God foreknow. but lets keep it simple

if we are all promised salvation, those that do repent.

then why the verse

tommorow isnt promised and the verse in James say not amongts yourselves will will do these or that or buy and sell for the morrow isnt promised, rather say if the Lord wills we will do this or that.

that does apply to the saint but aslo the sinner as they may think i can wait till letter

today is the day of salvation saith the Lord.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi glorydaz

If murder was a forgivable sin, then the devil who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning, would also be forgiven. And if that were true, then the devil would not go into the second death.

Just face the facts ! God is no respector of persons. Some sins are unto death, and there is no way that these will repent of their sins. Even if they did repent, these sins would not be forgiven, because they are sins unto death. Murder and being a murderer is one.

All fearful and unbelieving , and abominable, and murderers and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars who are of their father the devil, who are of that wicked one, will have their part in the second death. It is as simple as that.

Not all drunks are drunkards. They have not made the devil their father. The ones who have made the devil their father, are those who will end up in the second death. They are of the wicked one !

Bless

You keep making up your own rules.

Satan never directly murdered anyone (which is why you say David isn't guilty of murder).
He is called a murderer because he tempts man to sin which results in death.

For you to pick drunkards out of that list is quite amusing.
Unbelief is the only reason anyone will face the second death.
Perhaps you'd like God to consult you, though, since you seem to have it lined out for Him. :biglaugh

 

[glorydaz]

Quote Jasoncran : "because we are his children upon repentance unto salvation"

Hi Jason

We are not his children "upon" repentance unto salvation. We are his children from before the foundations of the world.

Romans 11:29 - "For the gifts and calling of God are without being concerned with (repentance)"

The word "repentance" here means -- "Not to be concerned with"

In II Corinth. 7:9 & 10 , in both verses we have the word "repentance" used in both verses. And in both verses, this word "repentance" is the word -- "Change of mind" - greek word - "metanoia"

II Corinth. 7:9 - "Now I rejoice , not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to "Change of mind" (repentance) : for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing"

II Corinth. 7:10 - "For godly sorrow worketh Comfort (repentance) to (our) salvation (saved by grace and not of works lest any man should boast) not to be concerned with (repented of) : but the sorrow of the world worketh death"

You really shouldn't be correcting anyone since your understanding of the Word is off.
Jesus being "slain from the foundation" as a part of God's plan, but did not manifest itself in fact until He was actually placed upon the cross. You claim the OT saints weren't saved because the cross hadn't happened yet. You want your cake and eat it, too? :biglaugh

We become children of God when we are born again. Repentance is a part of being born again.
Jason is speaking of repenting unto salvation which he is entirely correct in doing.
You must not want to answer his arguments ...trying to distract with the "meaning" of words is a nice ploy but too obvious to ignore.

 

[glorydaz]

true that God foreknow. but lets keep it simple

if we are all promised salvation, those that do repent.

then why the verse

tommorow isnt promised and the verse in James say not amongts yourselves will will do these or that or buy and sell for the morrow isnt promised, rather say if the Lord wills we will do this or that.

that does apply to the saint but aslo the sinner as they may think i can wait till letter

today is the day of salvation saith the Lord.

Jason, MM plays both sides of the fence in order to argue.
I've never seen so much contradiction coming from one person in my life.

You're standing firm....I like that.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi glorydaz

If murder was a forgivable sin, then the devil who was a murderer and a liar from the beginning, would also be forgiven. And if that were true, then the devil would not go into the second death.

Just face the facts ! God is no respector of persons. Some sins are unto death, and there is no way that these will repent of their sins. Even if they did repent, these sins would not be forgiven, because they are sins unto death. Murder and being a murderer is one.

All fearful and unbelieving , and abominable, and murderers and whoremonger, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars who are of their father the devil, who are of that wicked one, will have their part in the second death. It is as simple as that.

Not all drunks are drunkards. They have not made the devil their father. The ones who have made the devil their father, are those who will end up in the second death. They are of the wicked one !

Bless

You keep making up your own rules.

Satan never directly murdered anyone (which is why you say David isn't guilty of murder).
He is called a murderer because he tempts man to sin which results in death.

For you to pick drunkards out of that list is quite amusing.
Unbelief is the only reason anyone will face the second death.
Perhaps you'd like God to consult you, though, since you seem to have it lined out for Him. :biglaugh

Hi glorydaz

You believe (pun) that the only reason anyone will face the second death is because of unbelief ? Wouldn't that put you in the hot seat ? A one way ticket ? Because you do not believe what the Word is telling us ? Your making up your own rules, and if I were you, I would fear your own rules. :yes

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. And the words of Jesus have told us that he was a murderer from the beginning. Now you say that he didn't murder anyone. Don't you see your own unbelief ? ? Didn't you just open the door to the second death within your life , because of this unbelief ?

What are you going to tell us next, that the devil is not a liar ?

Rev. 12:15 tells us that the serpent (devil - Satan) cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that she might be carried away with the flood < You don't call this act being a murderer ?

I am looking forward to your reply .

 

[jasoncran]

mysteryman reread her post. she is calling satan a murderer.just that he hasnt done it himself.

lord have mercy. another rabbit trail.

can satan murder?

 

[Mysteryman]

calvinism mixed with arianism interesting.

true that God foreknow. but lets keep it simple

if we are all promised salvation, those that do repent.

then why the verse

tommorow isnt promised and the verse in James say not amongts yourselves will will do these or that or buy and sell for the morrow isnt promised, rather say if the Lord wills we will do this or that.

that does apply to the saint but aslo the sinner as they may think i can wait till letter

today is the day of salvation saith the Lord.

Hi Jason:

Let me ask you this -- A baby is born and dies shortly after birth. Never having the opportunity to repent. Is this baby saved by the grace of God ? And if so, then salvation is not based upon repentance. It is then based upon the grace of God < Which it is ! And everyone who lived and died in the OT, never having the opportunity to repent. They also were saved by grace. The criteria is not based upon one's repenting. Salvation is based upon two major factors. Given the opportunity, if you confess that God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Without this opportunity to confess, which means all those who died before this confession became available. Salvation is a given, with a condition. As long as they did not murder anyone, or blaspheme God , which some did by way of idolatry on the road to the promise land. And God took their names out of the book of life. If one's name is not in the book of life, they then end up in the second death. And this condition is also upon all of mankind.

Salvation is based upon the Love of God, not upon our own faith. Our faith is based upon our desires. The faith of Christ is based upon a predestination. We have the mind of Christ because God predestined us. We have the promise seed of Christ, because God predestined us. Just as Isaac was predestined, so are Christians. We are of God, chosen by God, children of God because of the desire of God, and not of us. You didn't choose your earthly father, and you didn't choose your heavenly Father neither ! He chose you !

Bless

 

[jasoncran]

agian you have sent the standard that isnt not the the bible, only blaspheme is unforgiveable.

god may choose us, but we can refuse to recieve him

i choose to marry my wife, as i asked her, but she could have said no.

we have freewill.
no freewill then no sin

no sin, then no need to have the cross.

with the innocents that have never heard the gospel. i beleive that the millenial is the oppurtunity for them to see why the Lord allows free will. satan is bound for a thousand yrs then let loose.
Why? to test man one last time. to see who will follow him

then satan is destroyed.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Jason: "only blaspheme is unforgiveable."

Hi Jason

I believe that when people tell me this, that their comments are based on a lack of information.

What does it mean to blaspheme the Holy Spirit ? Just mouth off at him ? Well obviously not ! It means much more than that.

If God is going to take someone's name out of the book of life, and because one's name is not in the book of life, being the reason they end up in the second death. Then more undersanding is necessary. Idolatry can bring about by God to take someone's name out of the book of life ! Being a whoremonger can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. Being a liar, can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. Being a murderer can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. So all of these must be tied into blaspheming God in some way !

Revelation 21:8 - "But all fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoemongers, and sorcerers, and Idolaters, and liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" < These all must tie into blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Jason: "god may choose us, but we can refuse to recieve him"

Hi Jason

This kind of comment belittle's God. God would not choose you, if in his foreknowledge he knew you would reject him ! !

 

[jasoncran]

Quote Jason: "god may choose us, but we can refuse to recieve him"

Hi Jason

This kind of comment belittle's God. God would not choose you, if in his foreknowledge he knew you would reject him ! !

hypercalvinism. Jesus choose judas as his disciple did he not. yet where is Judas? He still knew that he would reject him

i know what blaspheme is a state of the heart that where you Know God is real, and reject him or flat out deny that he has the power to do what he can do. And knowingly that you deny him, your heart is hardened that you have refused to serve he lord and or repent. the pharisee jesus spoke to did this. They knew and saw the miracles and claimed that the Devil did the miracles.

you are confusing that state of heart with a murderes heart. while I'm sure that those who have commited murder are in that state.

pharoah hardened his heart to a degree then the Lord hardened his heart even more. it is process.not easily done, but done.


now then you must be a calvinininst. which i disagree with. if the Lord comes to you and ask you to repent, you can refuse. I have for six days, reread my testimony on the eternnal security thread.
If we have no choice, why the verse whomsever will may come. Yes the lord knows what you will do and think ere you do, but you have the choice. our puny minds cant grasp that.

 

[glorydaz]

You keep making up your own rules.

Satan never directly murdered anyone (which is why you say David isn't guilty of murder).
He is called a murderer because he tempts man to sin which results in death.

For you to pick drunkards out of that list is quite amusing.
Unbelief is the only reason anyone will face the second death.
Perhaps you'd like God to consult you, though, since you seem to have it lined out for Him. :biglaugh

Hi glorydaz

You believe (pun) that the only reason anyone will face the second death is because of unbelief ? Wouldn't that put you in the hot seat ? A one way ticket ? Because you do not believe what the Word is telling us ? Your making up your own rules, and if I were you, I would fear your own rules. :yes

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. And the words of Jesus have told us that he was a murderer from the beginning. Now you say that he didn't murder anyone. Don't you see your own unbelief ? ? Didn't you just open the door to the second death within your life , because of this unbelief ?

What are you going to tell us next, that the devil is not a liar ?

Rev. 12:15 tells us that the serpent (devil - Satan) cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that she might be carried away with the flood < You don't call this act being a murderer ?

I am looking forward to your reply .

You sure do like to beat around the bush. As I said, according to your rules, satan isn't a murderer since he didn't directly murder anyone. Now you're trying to back away from your own rules. :biglaugh

Yes, unbelief is the only sin that is unforgivable, it is the eternal sin...the sin unto death. The opposite, of course, is to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Let me ask you this -- A baby is born and dies shortly after birth. Never having the opportunity to repent. Is this baby saved by the grace of God ? And if so, then salvation is not based upon repentance. It is then based upon the grace of God < Which it is !

What does a child have to repent of? Do you believe in the concept of original sin?

And everyone who lived and died in the OT, never having the opportunity to repent. They also were saved by grace. The criteria is not based upon one's repenting. Salvation is based upon two major factors. Given the opportunity, if you confess that God so loved the world, that he sent his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. Without this opportunity to confess, which means all those who died before this confession became available. Salvation is a given, with a condition. As long as they did not murder anyone, or blaspheme God , which some did by way of idolatry on the road to the promise land. And God took their names out of the book of life. If one's name is not in the book of life, they then end up in the second death. And this condition is also upon all of mankind.

What's this talk of "not having the opportunity?" Have you not read that man is without excuse?

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Salvation is based upon the Love of God, not upon our own faith. Our faith is based upon our desires. The faith of Christ is based upon a predestination. We have the mind of Christ because God predestined us. We have the promise seed of Christ, because God predestined us. Just as Isaac was predestined, so are Christians. We are of God, chosen by God, children of God because of the desire of God, and not of us. You didn't choose your earthly father, and you didn't choose your heavenly Father neither ! He chose you !

You're a little confused on predestination. God's foreknowledge is coupled with our choosing. Man's free will cannot be dismissed in such a willy-nilly manner. We are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ...not predestined to accept His free gift.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Life and death is set before us....we choose to accept or reject God's gift to us.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Jason: " Jesus choose judas as his disciple did he not. yet where is Judas? He still knew that he would reject him"

Hi Jason

Jesus chose Judas as an example for us (the church) for future reference. Jesus knew he would be a false brethren and fasle disciple. He chose Judas so that the betrayer would betray him. We can not associate those of the church being chosen as his disciples, and Jesus choosing Judas. Jesus does not choose false brethren nor false disciples when it comes to the church. But at this time, the church had not been established as of yet.

This example was given to us, so that we would understand that there will be false brethren and false disciples among us. If Jesus didn't do this, there would not be any among them that would betray him. Peter denied the Lord, but so will we at times in our lives. We know that Peter didn't totally deny the Lord. His denial was based upon his fear of the Jews, as well as the law of the land. Which btw the Jews were attached too. Pilate should have let Jesus go, as he could find no fault with Jesus. But he left it up to the Jews as to whom to crucify and who to let go.

The Church has not been given the Spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind. When we were chosen from before the foundations of the world, we were chosen to be holy and without blame in Christ in love. Judas was not chosen in this manner. But we, the church, were chosen in this manner.

IMHO , to say less, is to suggest that our salvation and becoming a Christian is totally based upon us the individual. And I believe that this to be an untruth. There are no mistakes when it comes to God. And Jesus didn't make a mistake when he chose Judas. That is because there was a purpose , with an end result within that purpose.

 

[glorydaz]

What does it mean to blaspheme the Holy Spirit ? Just mouth off at him ? Well obviously not ! It means much more than that.

If God is going to take someone's name out of the book of life, and because one's name is not in the book of life, being the reason they end up in the second death. Then more undersanding is necessary. Idolatry can bring about by God to take someone's name out of the book of life ! Being a whoremonger can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. Being a liar, can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. Being a murderer can cause God to take one's name out of the book of life. So all of these must be tied into blaspheming God in some way !

Revelation 21:8 - "But all fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoemongers, and sorcerers, and Idolaters, and liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" < These all must tie into blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

God must have a big eraser. ;) The verse from Revelation is a list of those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. They will die in their sins because they have not accepted Jesus. The death angel sees no blood covering the door post.

The book of life is the Lamb's book. Those who are written in the Lamb's book will NOT have their names blotted out. We overcome by the blood of the Lamb. The blood covers our door post, and the death angel passes over.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here we see the "other books" from which those NOT written in the Lamb's Book will be judged.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here are those you're talking about...they were never written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[jasoncran]

still Judas still choose to reject him.

if we have no free will to reject the Lord, then did the lord tell peter to deny the Lord and make him do it?
no he knowing peter said when the the cock trow twice you deny me. Meaning he saw peter there in Future doing that , he didnt make him. He told him that it would happen despite Peter's saying otherwise.
He knew Peter's nature.

He didnt make Peter do that, just saw and told him that Peter would do it.

 

[Mysteryman]

quote glorydaz: "The verse from Revelation is a list of those who have not accepted Jesus Christ as Lord. They will die in their sins because they have not accepted Jesus."

Hi glorydaz

Wrong ! They are going to the second death because of their sins ! OT and NT people alike ! No one in the OT ever accepted or rejected Jesus Christ. They are going to the second death because they made that wicked one their father. The father of lies, and author of death.

The lambs book of life is where Christian names are written. So I agree with you here. But this is because God foreknew !

However, everyone has free will, and everyone who has ever lived , their choices were made known to God before they actually made their choices . God foreknew ! God would not choose someone in the body of Christ who he foreknew would be a murderer ! Because murder is an unforgivable sin. There is no eternal life abiding in a murderer.

And the devil is a murderer, not a pretend murderer ! He is not a murderer because he causes someone to become deceived < thats absurd !

Rev. 12:15 shows you that he is a murderer !

 

[glorydaz]

And the devil is a murderer, not a pretend murderer ! He is not a murderer because he causes someone to become deceived < thats absurd !

Rev. 12:15 shows you that he is a murderer !

First I'll address Rev. 12...Satan didn't literally spew water and kill people. This is undoubtedly speaking of Herod's attempts to kill the Christ child. It's a normal thing in scripture, that the raging tumults of the nations should be compared to waters.

No one in the OT ever accepted or rejected Jesus Christ. They are going to the second death because they made that wicked one their father. The father of lies, and author of death.

Now, I'll address this little tidbit of misinformation. Read it and weep.
Doesn't sound like the second death to me. ;)
The promises to Abraham were through Christ.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Abraham looked forward to the cross...a "friend of God", justified by faith.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And Moses...notice "Christ" and "reward"?

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Oops, looks like David did, indeed, know Chirst.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David foresaw the Lord...always before his face.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

 

[Mysteryman]

And the devil is a murderer, not a pretend murderer ! He is not a murderer because he causes someone to become deceived < thats absurd !

Rev. 12:15 shows you that he is a murderer !

First I'll address Rev. 12...Satan didn't literally spew water and kill people. This is undoubtedly speaking of Herod's attempts to kill the Christ child. It's a normal thing in scripture, that the raging tumults of the nations should be compared to waters.

No one in the OT ever accepted or rejected Jesus Christ. They are going to the second death because they made that wicked one their father. The father of lies, and author of death.

Now, I'll address this little tidbit of misinformation. Read it and weep.
Doesn't sound like the second death to me. ;)
The promises to Abraham were through Christ.

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

[quote="Matthew 8:11":iegrve8a]And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

Abraham looked forward to the cross...a "friend of God", justified by faith.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And Moses...notice "Christ" and "reward"?

By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Oops, looks like David did, indeed, know Chirst.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

David foresaw the Lord...always before his face.

For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

[/quote:iegrve8a]


LOL



David by revelation knew of the Lord that was to be the messiah. Israel believed this, until the day that he came and then they didn't beleive.



Those under the law , on the way to the promise land, God took their names out of the book of life, and these were children of Israel.



Then there were nations which were not of Israel, and who were not a part of the law. Neither did they know him . Nor did they believe in him. Yet, they are saved, unless they have sinned a sin unto death !

Your theory is >