Bible Study Must we be born again?

[JLB]

Justification requires ONLY belief in God and so we are saved by His grace through our faith in Him.

There is nothing we can do and no work we can perform to gain admittance into the Kingdom of God here on earth or after.

I agree with you, that there is no work we can perform....

I also agree that justification requires belief, however if one says I believe God, but I’m not going to do what He says, then what good is my belief?


Justification requires obedience to what God says.


Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn justification

But the work, or corresponding action of obedience.


James says it this way -

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Likewise, we see that Abraham was also justified when He obeyed the Lord, when He said to get out of his country, and his family...


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8


Abraham foreshadowed “justification by faith” when he obeyed the command to turn away from his old life (repent) and follow the Lord.

• Here is the same incident from Hebrews.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Justification by faith, means we obey the Gospel command to repent.

Repent means biblically to turn to God, in submission to Him as Lord.


They way we repent is to confess Jesus Christ as Lord.


For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

• with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

JLB

 

[stovebolts]

At the time of Noah, the water caused everything to die.
In Genesis 1 God removes the water and creates land...He divides.
Then God saves Noah and his family and uses water to end the earth.

The ark represents Jesus...the ark was the salvation of Noah and his family.

We might also say that God used the water to cleanse the earth...to start over again.

This water is also spoken of when discussing baptism.
Ditto for the Red Sea. Water is found throughout the bible.

In Genesis 1, I think it's important to note that prior to God speaking, the earth was void and in darkness. When God speaks, he creates. When God speaks in verse 9, land is brought forth out of the water, God says it's good.

We know in the days of Noah, what God created for good, had turned into evil with the exception of one man (Noah) and his family which numbered 8 in all and once again, the earth is swallowed up by water and cleansed and only 8 were left behind.

As many have stated elsewhere, we don't want anyone to think that water baptism saves. That is to say that getting dunked in the water is essential to ones salvation.

As Jesus said, one must be born of the water and the spirit. It is not one or the other but rather, it is both.

But as you know some will say, but what if a man we're stranded on a desert island and had no water to be baptized? Or, what about the thief on the cross? Still another might ask, what if a man confesses on his death bed and dies before being water baptized? My reply is that God's righteousness is bound within His mercy and grace. God knows the heart of man and judges rightly.

I've said this before, but how we talk about baptism today does not sound anything remotely like how the Early Church Fathers talked about baptism.

 

[stovebolts]

I agree with you, that there is no work we can perform....

I also agree that justification requires belief, however if one says I believe God, but I’m not going to do what He says, then what good is my belief?


Justification requires obedience to what God says.


Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn justification

But the work, or corresponding action of obedience.


James says it this way -

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Likewise, we see that Abraham was also justified when He obeyed the Lord, when He said to get out of his country, and his family...


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8


Abraham foreshadowed “justification by faith” when he obeyed the command to turn away from his old life (repent) and follow the Lord.

• Here is the same incident from Hebrews.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Justification by faith, means we obey the Gospel command to repent.

Repent means biblically to turn to God, in submission to Him as Lord.




JLB

I agree, and would affirm all that you have written.

But I would also take this opportunity to say that some would accuse you of works based salvation just as some have erroneously accused me of teaching water baptism as THE essential item of obedience for salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree with you, that there is no work we can perform....

I also agree that justification requires belief, however if one says I believe God, but I’m not going to do what He says, then what good is my belief?


Justification requires obedience to what God says.


Not good works
Not the works of the law
Not works that earn justification

But the work, or corresponding action of obedience.


James says it this way -

• Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:21-22


Likewise, we see that Abraham was also justified when He obeyed the Lord, when He said to get out of his country, and his family...


And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” Galatians 3:8


Abraham foreshadowed “justification by faith” when he obeyed the command to turn away from his old life (repent) and follow the Lord.

• Here is the same incident from Hebrews.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


Justification by faith, means we obey the Gospel command to repent.

Repent means biblically to turn to God, in submission to Him as Lord.




JLB

James 2:21-22 causes a little confusion as to the meaning of the words Justification and Sanctification.

You like to define words so maybe we could do this now.

Your entire post above is 100% correct, the only problem is that a word is used that does not mean what you then describe.

This word is JUSTIFICATION.

Everything you describe above is SANCTIFICATION.

Then why does James say that justification is by faith AND works?
Because the language was not explained yet. This took theologians after the letters were written. They defined the difference between J and S. This difference can be found simply by checking out the difference on google.

If you notice, The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven is also sometimes used interchangeably...this also took some separating by theologians.

Justification is immediate upon belief.
Sanctificaiton requires obedience and good deeds to continue with our work.

If you want to read a lot----(pay no attention to the sites)

Justification and Sanctification: The Theological and Practical relationship Between the Two Doctrines

www.onenesspentecostal.com

A condensed version:

What Are Justification and Sanctification?

The words justification and sanctification have largely fallen out of use in Western culture. Sadly, they are also fading from sight in the Christian church. On

www.ligonier.org

And:

What Is the Difference between Justification and Sanctification?

What is the difference between justification and sanctification? Justification means being declared righteous, while sanctification means growing in righteousness.

www.thegospelcoalition.org

 

[Boaz]

At the time of Noah, the water caused everything to die.
In Genesis 1 God removes the water and creates land...He divides.
Then God saves Noah and his family and uses water to end the earth.

The ark represents Jesus...the ark was the salvation of Noah and his family.

We might also say that God used the water to cleanse the earth...to start over again.

This water is also spoken of when discussing baptism.
Ditto for the Red Sea. Water is found throughout the bible.

A quick note on the statement that the Ark represents Jesus. And to be fair, I don't think you meant that that was the meaning or purpose of the history of Noah. The Ark was the Ark, a real historical ark. It may remind us that
Jesus is our Savior but it didn't actually represent Him. I bring it up as a cautionary because there are teachings coming from some pulpits that almost everything in the Bible is representative, not real. You can see how damaging that would be to Christianity. I realize it just a matter of word choice with you but some may walk away thinking the ark represents Jesus.
Peace and blessings
R

 

[GodsGrace]

In Genesis 1, I think it's important to note that prior to God speaking, the earth was void and in darkness. When God speaks, he creates. When God speaks in verse 9, land is brought forth out of the water, God says it's good.

We know in the days of Noah, what God created for good, had turned into evil with the exception of one man (Noah) and his family which numbered 8 in all and once again, the earth is swallowed up by water and cleansed and only 8 were left behind.

As many have stated elsewhere, we don't want anyone to think that water baptism saves. That is to say that getting dunked in the water is essential to ones salvation.

As Jesus said, one must be born of the water and the spirit. It is not one or the other but rather, it is both.

But as you know some will say, but what if a man we're stranded on a desert island and had no water to be baptized? Or, what about the thief on the cross? Still another might ask, what if a man confesses on his death bed and dies before being water baptized? My reply is that God's righteousness is bound within His mercy and grace. God knows the heart of man and judges rightly.

I've said this before, but how we talk about baptism today does not sound anything remotely like how the Early Church Fathers talked about baptism.

You might know that I'm very interested in the teachings of the ECFs. I've found some great YouTube talks that are easy to listen to.

Here is a talk on what the early Christians believed about baptism:

 

[GodsGrace]

In Genesis 1, I think it's important to note that prior to God speaking, the earth was void and in darkness. When God speaks, he creates. When God speaks in verse 9, land is brought forth out of the water, God says it's good.

We know in the days of Noah, what God created for good, had turned into evil with the exception of one man (Noah) and his family which numbered 8 in all and once again, the earth is swallowed up by water and cleansed and only 8 were left behind.

As many have stated elsewhere, we don't want anyone to think that water baptism saves. That is to say that getting dunked in the water is essential to ones salvation.

As Jesus said, one must be born of the water and the spirit. It is not one or the other but rather, it is both.

But as you know some will say, but what if a man we're stranded on a desert island and had no water to be baptized? Or, what about the thief on the cross? Still another might ask, what if a man confesses on his death bed and dies before being water baptized? My reply is that God's righteousness is bound within His mercy and grace. God knows the heart of man and judges rightly.

I've said this before, but how we talk about baptism today does not sound anything remotely like how the Early Church Fathers talked about baptism.

P.S. I agree with all of the above.
The catholic faith teaches about baptism of desire....
which handles all of the above circumstances where one cannot be baptized. I find it kind of silly when one brings up the thief on the cross to justify their belief. Was he supposed to get down and get dunked?

Of course baptism does not save or all catholics would be saved!
I just believe that if Jesus said something, it must be important and He did say to be baptized.

Doubtfully we understand everything about the spiritual dimension. I don't really understand prayer either, for instance.

 

[GodsGrace]

A quick note on the statement that the Ark represents Jesus. And to be fair, I don't think you meant that that was the meaning or purpose of the history of Noah. The Ark was the Ark, a real historical ark. It may remind us that
Jesus is our Savior but it didn't actually represent Him. I bring it up as a cautionary because there are teachings coming from some pulpits that almost everything in the Bible is representative, not real. You can see how damaging that would be to Christianity. I realize it just a matter of word choice with you but some may walk away thinking the ark represents Jesus.
Peace and blessings
R

Thanks for the post R.
I'm not aware of everything going on over there.

At the time of Noah's Ark....it was not known that it represented Jesus. It was just the story, as you said.

NOW, we can say that it represents Jesus because it saved those that were in it. Just like the Passover Lamb represents Jesus...but the events really happened.

I guess we could use a different word...foreshadow?
Personally, I don't have a problem with "represent", but I understand your point.

 

[JLB]

I agree, and would affirm all that you have written.

But I would also take this opportunity to say that some would accuse you of works based salvation just as some have erroneously accused me of teaching water baptism as THE essential item of obedience for salvation.

I must say that baptism is a challenging subject to teach.

I think you and I agree that water baptism is for believers; people who are already saved.

Not unbelievers.

Nevertheless, both Jesus and Peter sure say some things that shouldn’t be ignored.


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16


It would be hard to ignore the connection between Repenting, which is believing (obeying) the Gospel and baptism.


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Amen Brother, well said.
We know that the Spirit convicts the world so that those in the world can repent.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
God gives the world the Holy Spirit to show his righteousness.

Romans 1:16-18 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 3:21-24 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

In Genesis 1, I think it's important to note that prior to God speaking, the earth was void and in darkness. When God speaks, he creates. When God speaks in verse 9, land is brought forth out of the water, God says it's good.

We know in the days of Noah, what God created for good, had turned into evil with the exception of one man (Noah) and his family which numbered 8 in all and once again, the earth is swallowed up by water and cleansed and only 8 were left behind.

As many have stated elsewhere, we don't want anyone to think that water baptism saves. That is to say that getting dunked in the water is essential to ones salvation.

As Jesus said, one must be born of the water and the spirit. It is not one or the other but rather, it is both.

But as you know some will say, but what if a man we're stranded on a desert island and had no water to be baptized? Or, what about the thief on the cross? Still another might ask, what if a man confesses on his death bed and dies before being water baptized? My reply is that God's righteousness is bound within His mercy and grace. God knows the heart of man and judges rightly.

I've said this before, but how we talk about baptism today does not sound anything remotely like how the Early Church Fathers talked about baptism.

And I agree wholeheartedly that this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Baptism...Jesus never once mentions to Nicodemus that he needed to be baptized by one of his apostles or by John.

He does mention Water...
And in the context that He mentions it...lets look at some key verses. You started in a great spot in Genesis...almost made it to the one that is key crucial for understanding.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(NASB)

This is the second verse in the Bible.
And so many overlook it's importance.
"The Deep" is a single word in Hebrew...it is the word "Tehovm". (Transliterated for ease of pronunciation)
This one word is also the word for Chaos and "The Pit" and a host of other places. It is also a reference to the Sea.
Now this "Moving over the surface of the waters"...the Hebrew in this section of "moving" can also be understood as "shaking" or "vibrating"...
Which in Ancient Near East terms usually is a poetic reference to exercising control over it all. What this really means is that God was busy picking out what natural laws that would exist in our Universe. He is the Creator of our Universe...He didn't arbitrarily simply accept or acquiesce to the natural laws that govern it...He deliberately chose them.

Lets look at 2Peter for a second...NT time...
2Peter 3:5
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

Now Peter was accustomed to understanding the scriptures from a very Hebrew/Jewish mindset...(which is who the scriptures were originally written for)

And now for a summation part about the water...
Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

Now how about that? kinda a tough thing to do to people.
But look at what also came down the mountain with Moses...The LAW.
And it was symbolic for them to receive this Law (which would be a taskmaster and bitter to them...just like the ash filled water that they were forced to drink. )

So....The WATER reference in John is a reference to some kind of LAW...either God's word or other LAW...
And if we are somewhat careful...
Lets look at two more passages side by side...and then a third.

Exodus 32:28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant —not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

I think that this is of special note...
The Letter of the LAW kills...but the Spirit brings LIFE.

BORN of WATER and of SPIRIT?
I think that the meaning of what Jesus was intending should now be obvious.

 

[stovebolts]

I must say that baptism is a challenging subject to teach.

I think you and I agree that water baptism is for believers; people who are already saved.

Not unbelievers.

Nevertheless, both Jesus and Peter sure say some things that shouldn’t be ignored.


Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38


And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mark 16:15-16


It would be hard to ignore the connection between Repenting, which is believing (obeying) the Gospel and baptism.


JLB

You speak truth brother.
Harmonizing scripture can be daunting at times, but as you've underlined, it's an and situation, not an or as some would contend.

 

[stovebolts]

You might know that I'm very interested in the teachings of the ECFs. I've found some great YouTube talks that are easy to listen to.

Here is a talk on what the early Christians believed about baptism:

This was an excellent listen. Most I have found elsewhere but I never knew about the gnostic's within this narrative.

It was very well put together and articulated. A must listen for anyone.

 

[stovebolts]

And I agree wholeheartedly that this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Baptism...Jesus never once mentions to Nicodemus that he needed to be baptized by one of his apostles or by John.

He does mention Water...
And in the context that He mentions it...lets look at some key verses. You started in a great spot in Genesis...almost made it to the one that is key crucial for understanding.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(NASB)

This is the second verse in the Bible.
And so many overlook it's importance.
"The Deep" is a single word in Hebrew...it is the word "Tehovm". (Transliterated for ease of pronunciation)
This one word is also the word for Chaos and "The Pit" and a host of other places. It is also a reference to the Sea.
Now this "Moving over the surface of the waters"...the Hebrew in this section of "moving" can also be understood as "shaking" or "vibrating"...
Which in Ancient Near East terms usually is a poetic reference to exercising control over it all. What this really means is that God was busy picking out what natural laws that would exist in our Universe. He is the Creator of our Universe...He didn't arbitrarily simply accept or acquiesce to the natural laws that govern it...He deliberately chose them.

Lets look at 2Peter for a second...NT time...
2Peter 3:5
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

Now Peter was accustomed to understanding the scriptures from a very Hebrew/Jewish mindset...(which is who the scriptures were originally written for)

And now for a summation part about the water...
Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

Now how about that? kinda a tough thing to do to people.
But look at what also came down the mountain with Moses...The LAW.
And it was symbolic for them to receive this Law (which would be a taskmaster and bitter to them...just like the ash filled water that they were forced to drink. )

So....The WATER reference in John is a reference to some kind of LAW...either God's word or other LAW...
And if we are somewhat careful...
Lets look at two more passages side by side...and then a third.

Exodus 32:28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant —not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

I think that this is of special note...
The Letter of the LAW kills...but the Spirit brings LIFE.

BORN of WATER and of SPIRIT?
I think that the meaning of what Jesus was intending should now be obvious.

Nowhere does scripture command a woman to love her husband as some things are simply known.

I'll have to break out some Ramban on those verses. It is very enlightening. I'll share later, I think you will appreciate them.

 

[Boaz]

Thanks for the post R.
I'm not aware of everything going on over there.

At the time of Noah's Ark....it was not known that it represented Jesus. It was just the story, as you said.

NOW, we can say that it represents Jesus because it saved those that were in it. Just like the Passover Lamb represents Jesus...but the events really happened.

I guess we could use a different word...foreshadow?
Personally, I don't have a problem with "represent", but I understand your point.

Fair enough. Certainly we see the saving God in the Noah account. Since the entire Bible from beginning to end is the working out of, leading to redemption, we see these foreshadowings and the pointing to Jesus, all over the place. The sacrificial system itself, the Kings and Priests, the sacrificial lamb, the Passover blood. One of my favorites is in the account of Esther when she goes before the king and he holds his sceptre towards her, inviting her to come before the throne and ask whatever she would. It so reminds me of this scripture. Hebrews 4:15 "Let us therefore come boldly before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time of need." And we come through His shed blood and the sacrifice of His body. Gives me chills, in a good way.

 

[JLB]

And I agree wholeheartedly that this passage has nothing whatsoever to do with Baptism...Jesus never once mentions to Nicodemus that he needed to be baptized by one of his apostles or by John.

He does mention Water...
And in the context that He mentions it...lets look at some key verses. You started in a great spot in Genesis...almost made it to the one that is key crucial for understanding.

2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
(NASB)

This is the second verse in the Bible.
And so many overlook it's importance.
"The Deep" is a single word in Hebrew...it is the word "Tehovm". (Transliterated for ease of pronunciation)
This one word is also the word for Chaos and "The Pit" and a host of other places. It is also a reference to the Sea.
Now this "Moving over the surface of the waters"...the Hebrew in this section of "moving" can also be understood as "shaking" or "vibrating"...
Which in Ancient Near East terms usually is a poetic reference to exercising control over it all. What this really means is that God was busy picking out what natural laws that would exist in our Universe. He is the Creator of our Universe...He didn't arbitrarily simply accept or acquiesce to the natural laws that govern it...He deliberately chose them.

Lets look at 2Peter for a second...NT time...
2Peter 3:5
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water,

Now Peter was accustomed to understanding the scriptures from a very Hebrew/Jewish mindset...(which is who the scriptures were originally written for)

And now for a summation part about the water...
Exodus 32:20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

Now how about that? kinda a tough thing to do to people.
But look at what also came down the mountain with Moses...The LAW.
And it was symbolic for them to receive this Law (which would be a taskmaster and bitter to them...just like the ash filled water that they were forced to drink. )

So....The WATER reference in John is a reference to some kind of LAW...either God's word or other LAW...
And if we are somewhat careful...
Lets look at two more passages side by side...and then a third.

Exodus 32:28 The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died.

Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant —not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

I think that this is of special note...
The Letter of the LAW kills...but the Spirit brings LIFE.

BORN of WATER and of SPIRIT?
I think that the meaning of what Jesus was intending should now be obvious.

Yes the answer is obvious, because Jesus gives us the answer in the next verse.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Born of water is a reference to natural birth, that which is born of flesh.

Born of the Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth, that which is born of the Spirit.


In order to be born again, one must be first be born.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Fair enough. Certainly we see the saving God in the Noah account. Since the entire Bible from beginning to end is the working out of, leading to redemption, we see these foreshadowings and the pointing to Jesus, all over the place. The sacrificial system itself, the Kings and Priests, the sacrificial lamb, the Passover blood. One of my favorites is in the account of Esther when she goes before the king and he holds his sceptre towards her, inviting her to come before the throne and ask whatever she would. It so reminds me of this scripture. Hebrews 4:15 "Let us therefore come boldly before His throne of grace to receive mercy in our time of need." And we come through His shed blood and the sacrifice of His body. Gives me chills, in a good way.

I love your passion and perspective from the scriptures.

I would like to point out one thing, since the discussion is about Noah and the Ark, and foreshadowing
salvation.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


According to this scripture, who saved Noah’s household?


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

Yes the answer is obvious, because Jesus gives us the answer in the next verse.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6


Born of water is a reference to natural birth, that which is born of flesh.

Born of the Spirit is a reference to spiritual birth, that which is born of the Spirit.


In order to be born again, one must be first be born.


JLB

That's a gratuitous assertion without any support. This is Bible study forum not a debate forum. And gratuitous assertions have never been allowed anywhere except for describing your personal feelings of happy, sad and loneliness (in a different forum)

Sooooo

 

[JLB]

That's a gratuitous assertion without any support. This is Bible study forum not a debate forum. And gratuitous assertions have never been allowed anywhere except for describing your personal feelings of happy, sad and loneliness (in a different forum)

Sooooo

John

I’m stating what the scripture so plainly says.

I’m not debating anything, just simply stating what I see in the scripture we are discussing, just like everyone else.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:5-6

Jesus is referring to natural birth and spiritual birth.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


He is using earthly (natural) things to teach about heavenly (spiritual) things.

If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

The earthly thing is natural birth.

The heavenly thing is spiritual birth.

That’s what I see from this passage.


What does born of water mean to you?



JLB

 

[JLB]

You speak truth brother.
Harmonizing scripture can be daunting at times, but as you've underlined, it's an and situation, not an or as some would contend.

There is one more scripture that is worthy of our attention in this matter, of showing the connection of believing, repentance and baptism.

It comes from Acts chapter 8, where Phillip leads the Ethiopian eunuch (Gentile) to the Lord.

What an amazing story!!!


Key Verses:

Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” Acts 8:35-36


Phillip started in Isaiah, and preached Jesus to him.


The result is the Ethiopian eunuch asking to be baptized in water.


Phillip obviously included water baptism in the “preaching of Jesus” for salvation.


Hard to ignore this kind of evidence.





JLB

 

[Boaz]

I love your passion and perspective from the scriptures.

I would like to point out one thing, since the discussion is about Noah and the Ark, and foreshadowing
salvation.


By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
Hebrews 11:7


According to this scripture, who saved Noah’s household?

JLB
Thanks a bunch.
Who saved Noah? Obviously Noah had to be obedient and act purely on faith. But it was God who saved him, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. All were involved, exactly who did what part I could only speculate on. And I know they are One, always in agreement, always acting in unison but it is difficult, for me anyway, to put into words the actions of the Trinity without it SOUNDING like they are three different entities, even though that is not what I believe. Therefore when I say God, I mean the full Godhead.