My latest attempt at connecting the dots vs. OSAS

[francisdesales]

This is about whether a person can remove themselves from the New Covenant, not arguing about what Christ has done.

It's ALL about what Christ has done, and what he did on the cross for you. Questioning that is your first mistake.

I'm afraid you are wrong, urk.

I say this with love, I want to point to you the biblical truth - that we participate in our salvation. This is why some people are at different levels in their holiness/sanctification. This is why ALL men are not saved, despite this being God's will, according to Paul. This is why some people fall away from the faith, as Paul and Jesus both state.

And this is why YOU and I are judged upon our deaths, not Jesus Christ. We ALL will stand before Christ and be judged. US. Not Him. For if it were "all Jesus", then NO ONE would go to hell and there is no point in judgment. One of the clearest and most prominent themes in the NT is final judgment based upon what we do here and how we cooperate/participate in His grace. Not what Jesus does.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Yes i know...i paraphrased it.

Your text twisting has destroyed the intent of the actual Scripture.

Just because a person is following Jesus does NOT mean that they were called by the Father. ALL who were called by the Father follow Jesus. All the elect follow Him. But it is poor logic to state that "because I follow Him" means that you are one of the elect. The Scripture just doesn't say that, it is simple logic. John 6:66 CLEARLY (to those who do not ignore the Scriptures) states that not EVERYONE who followed Jesus were of the elect. Now, apply that to yourself. Just because you follow Him NOW does not mean that verse 66 will not later be applied to you...

You have no Scriptural warrant to make the claim that SOME Scripture applies to you personally, while others cannot apply to you.

I hear Jesus' voice and i follow him...that makes me a sheep....baaa....baaa.

I'm afraid not. The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...

Oh and he also said he would never cast me out because i came to him because the Father gave me to him. I paraphrased that as well....hope you don't mind.

Personally, if you want to "paraphrase" that Jesus is not God or that Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did, that is your perogative. Doesn't make it right. And I will continue to comment on your mistaken text-twisting.

Nowhere does the Bible state that an individual will not be cast out. It states that the ELECT will not be cast out.

Quite simply, you don't know you are of the elect to heaven. People follow Christ. Doesn't make them "elect". God knows whether they will fall away, and thus, they were not elect. Simply stating "I'm elect and cannot be cast out" is not biblically backed-up, and stating it over and over isn't making it true.

Sorry, but that "baaa" might be the sound of a goat. I hope it is not. But to state NOW that it is a sheep is to take away the Divine Sovereignty of God, Who ALONE judges men. We don't judge ourselves, Paul states.

I was wondering if you are nervous? You know....since you are waiting until the last judgment in order to find out if you are a sheep or a goat?

As long as I remain in Christ, I have confidence that I will be judged positively. 1 John 5:12.

 

[smaller]

The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...

Ah, the infamous sheep goat works salvation statement. Gotta love it!

Likewise I would say to you in reverse, how many goats are doing sheep works in order to avoid being discovered for what they are?

And YES on the surprise factor. I would say that 200% will be surprised. 100% of the sheep and 100% of the goats will be entirely surprised.

Here is a surprise right now for every believer who thinks they are a sheep only....

we ALL do goatworks as a certain knowable FACT.

And here is another surprise. Very very few of us are actually truthful to each others when discussing this fact.

go figure.

What we ALL did/do in life is both sheep works and goat works. Every last one of us.

s

 

[francisdesales]

The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...

Ah, the infamous sheep goat works salvation statement. Gotta love it!

Likewise I would say to you in reverse, how many goats are doing sheep works in order to avoid being discovered for what they are?

And YES on the surprise factor. I would say that 200% will be surprised. 100% of the sheep and 100% of the goats will be entirely surprised.

Here is a surprise right now for every believer who thinks they are a sheep only....

we ALL do goatworks as a certain knowable FACT.

And here is another surprise. Very very few of us are actually truthful to each others when discussing this fact.

go figure.

What we ALL did/do in life is both sheep works and goat works. Every last one of us.

s

I have no argument with that. We all do the work of sheep and goats. Thus, we need to let God judge us, rather than our own deluded human minds proclaiming the mind of God ahead of time, as our minds that tend to overlook all the bad things we do and over-emphasize the good.

 

[chessman]

Take her down a notch, Chessman.

I’ll “taker her down a notch†if you’ll stop misrepresenting what I’ve said in your posts. The easiest and surest way to do that is simple. Never tell me what I’ve said or what I think or what my opinion is. That’s a pretty straightforward rule that’s good for any discussion. If you want to ask me to clarify something I’ve said or to clarify what I think, then fine. Just ask (as you have at the end of post #77). But when you start out a post with:

In your opinion, James says we can SHOW OUR TRUE FAITH by our actions.

and that in fact is not my opinion or what I’ve said, then I’m going to react.

Also, you might just consider (you certainly don’t have to agree but at least consider) that at least some of my points are in fact valid/correct as I do yours and other posters. I’m open to being proven, via Scripture, that I’m wrong. Are you?

To illustrate my point, I said:

Isn’t misquoting someone a clear violation of the ToS here?

You said:

No, it's not

The ToS says: Rule 2.5: “It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.â€

Bottom line, if you want to post (quote) my past statements, fine, use the quote feature. Please try honestly to capture the entire thought/point in its context. Even if that takes a couple of sentences or the whole paragraph. Picking a word or two out of a sentence or a sentence out of a paragraph (as you’ve done with post #77) can so often lead to a misrepresentation of my point. Just as it can at times lead to a misunderstanding of Scripture’s message.

And I’m here to defend my points/thoughts/opinions. I’m the one that hold’s them and I’ll defend them against all misrepresentation. The easiest way to do this is, please do not ever post:
“You think _____________†(fill in the blank). I pretty much know what I think. It’s absurd for you to tell me what I think. or
“You have said ____________†(fill in the blank using your own re-wording). Use the quote feature to identify the subject/topic and NOT your own re-interpretation and/or re-wording of what I have said.
Obviously you know how to use this quote feature.
We are all here in A&T to discuss and dialog Scripture’s true meaning/message and grow in our knowledge of Scripture. To illustrate my point here’s another example:

You answered:Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

Highlighting “yes, I believe that is correct†yet evidently not reading or understanding my second sentence. If you had read/understood the second sentence (and not misrepresented it back to me) then you would not need to ask me your question #3:

3) Is this true faith demonstrated to God or man or both?

Doesn’t, in fact, that second sentence of mine already answer this question?
If you honestly and in good faith agree with these two principles I’ve laid out and illustrated in this post, then I’ll continue to answer your questions and discuss/dialog what the Bible says about OSAS and listen to your arguments against it. But not until you agree with these two points:

1. Do not misrepresent what I have said, my thoughts or my opinions.
2. Do not simply take one verse or a portion of a verse out of the Bible to make your point without first reading/understanding the entire message of the author.
​

It’s simply a fact (and I’m the best person to determine this particular one), that you have misrepresented what I said in your past posts. I can get over it and “take her down a notch" and even continue to discuss Peter’s and James’ message to us Christians with you. Or not. It’s up to you.

Do you agree to these two simple rules (one of which is a ToS at CFNet)? I hope so as I truly would like to learn more about what Scriptures (in their true context) there are that Christians point to that teach OSAS=no.

 

[smaller]

I have no argument with that. We all do the work of sheep and goats.

Brilliant conclusion. In fact one would have to be nearly blind to think otherwise imho.

Thus, we need to let God judge us,

There is no 'thus.' Every last one of us will be proven goat/sheep workers for a fact. That fact is not going to be overlooked and weighed in one way or the other.

To think that we are going to be 'measured out' as 49.99999% goat and 50.00001% sheep, therefore INTO HEAVEN and the reverse, is entirely absurd.

s

 

[dadof10]

I’ll “taker her down a notch†if you’ll stop misrepresenting what I’ve said in your posts. The easiest and surest way to do that is simple. Never tell me what I’ve said or what I think or what my opinion is. That’s a pretty straightforward rule that’s good for any discussion. If you want to ask me to clarify something I’ve said or to clarify what I think, then fine. Just ask (as you have at the end of post #77). But when you start out a post with:
and that in fact is not my opinion or what I’ve said, then I’m going to react.

Also, you might just consider (you certainly don’t have to agree but at least consider) that at least some of my points are in fact valid/correct as I do yours and other posters. I’m open to being proven, via Scripture, that I’m wrong. Are you?

To illustrate my point, I said:
You said:

No, it's not

The ToS says: Rule 2.5: “It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member.â€

Bottom line, if you want to post (quote) my past statements, fine, use the quote feature. Please try honestly to capture the entire thought/point in its context. Even if that takes a couple of sentences or the whole paragraph. Picking a word or two out of a sentence or a sentence out of a paragraph (as you’ve done with post #77) can so often lead to a misrepresentation of my point. Just as it can at times lead to a misunderstanding of Scripture’s message.

And I’m here to defend my points/thoughts/opinions. I’m the one that hold’s them and I’ll defend them against all misrepresentation. The easiest way to do this is, please do not ever post:
“You think _____________†(fill in the blank). I pretty much know what I think. It’s absurd for you to tell me what I think. or
“You have said ____________†(fill in the blank using your own re-wording). Use the quote feature to identify the subject/topic and NOT your own re-interpretation and/or re-wording of what I have said.
Obviously you know how to use this quote feature.
We are all here in A&T to discuss and dialog Scripture’s true meaning/message and grow in our knowledge of Scripture. To illustrate my point here’s another example:

You answered:Yes, I believe that is correct. SHOWING to people does not equal SHOWING to God or that people cannot SHOW something that’s false.

Highlighting “yes, I believe that is correct†yet evidently not reading or understanding my second sentence. If you had read/understood the second sentence (and not misrepresented it back to me) then you would not need to ask me your question #3:

3) Is this true faith demonstrated to God or man or both?

Doesn’t, in fact, that second sentence of mine already answer this question?
If you honestly and in good faith agree with these two principles I’ve laid out and illustrated in this post, then I’ll continue to answer your questions and discuss/dialog what the Bible says about OSAS and listen to your arguments against it. But not until you agree with these two points:

1. Do not misrepresent what I have said, my thoughts or my opinions.
2. Do not simply take one verse or a portion of a verse out of the Bible to make your point without first reading/understanding the entire message of the author.
​

It’s simply a fact (and I’m the best person to determine this particular one), that you have misrepresented what I said in your past posts. I can get over it and “take her down a notch" and even continue to discuss Peter’s and James’ message to us Christians with you. Or not. It’s up to you.

Do you agree to these two simple rules (one of which is a ToS at CFNet)? I hope so as I truly would like to learn more about what Scriptures (in their true context) there are that Christians point to that teach OSAS=no.

I hope you feel better now that you got that out. I apologize for mis-UNDERSTANDING your points. I didn't mis-REPRESENT them. It's hard to know all your nuanced points in only one post, that's true for anyone. Maybe in the future, you could just clarify your position instead if getting indignant and angry. Maybe give me the benefit of the doubt?

Now, if you choose to leave this discussion, fine. I really don't care. But if you would like to stay, could you please simply tell me what James tells us we "show" by our actions? Is it "true faith"? Does he mean that by our actions, we are showing what's inside us, whether the faith we profess is a "saving faith"?

This is how these verses have been explained to me many time by people on your side, so I'm curious if you hold that position or some variation of it.

 

[gr8grace]

Here is a repeat of some good news!...

The Logical rationale: Rom 8:31-32 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:31-32)

Paul uses “a fortiori” logic to present God’s way of dealing with mankind.

If God is willing to Give mankind His Highest and Best(His Son) it stands to reason that he would not withhold the lesser(eternal life, deliverance from the lake of fire.....)

The Greek tense Rationale: And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)


The Greek word for “believe” in Acts 16:31 is pisteuo and is in the constantive aeroist tense which means to believe in a point of time which is perpetuated throughout eternity – and you shall be saved forever. This is referring to an instant of faith, and it means once and forever you are saved.

 

[gr8grace]

Here is some more!

Re: How secure are we in Christ?
The Promise of God:

There is a great promise from God that the believer has eternal security. In Jude 24-25 a doxology is used at the end of the teaching to point to the fact that God will deliver on ALL of His promises.

Jude 24-25~~Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.”

By His Grace, God keeps on preventing us from falling. We do not keep our selves from falling.

He has said that He will Keep us from falling. Does God Change or take back what He has given? This is eternal security with Great Joy! No He will not change, God does not take back Gifts that He renders out. James 1:17 States that God is immutable, He can never change from His absolute perfection. He can never cancel out His Grace gift of salvation for the believer. Eph 2:8-9

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (James 1:17)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

The perfect integrity of God cannot be canceled by the failure or renunciation of any believer living on earth according to 2 Timothy 2:11-13. God is faithful to His Word. If we died with Him as we have as believers, then we will live with Him forever. If we endure suffering for blessing, we will rule with Him as mature believers. If we deny Him by refusing to grow spiritually, He will not be able to convey rewards and blessings that spiritual growth always brings. Even though we may be unfaithful, disbelieving, or faithless following our salvation, He remains faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him; If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13)


The doctrine of eternal security is a blessed Gift from God and we should learn it and live it. But it is not about us. This doctrine is about God and His integrity.(and His integrity is at stake if one believes God will take His Gift back.)

Eternal security is based on Gods perfect and immutable integrity.God does NOT take back what He gives, ever! He does not and will not take back what He Gives.

 

[Grappler]

Your text twisting has destroyed the intent of the actual Scripture.

Just because a person is following Jesus does NOT mean that they were called by the Father. ALL who were called by the Father follow Jesus. All the elect follow Him. But it is poor logic to state that "because I follow Him" means that you are one of the elect. The Scripture just doesn't say that, it is simple logic. John 6:66 CLEARLY (to those who do not ignore the Scriptures) states that not EVERYONE who followed Jesus were of the elect. Now, apply that to yourself. Just because you follow Him NOW does not mean that verse 66 will not later be applied to you...

You have no Scriptural warrant to make the claim that SOME Scripture applies to you personally, while others cannot apply to you.




I'm afraid not. The separation of the sheep from the goats (yea, goats make the same sound...) occurs at the last judgment. NOWHERE does the Bible state that self-proclaimed sheep will escape this separation. Interestingly, the Scripture notes that there will be surprises, and it will be based upon what we did in life, our acts of love. NOWHERE does Matthew 25 speak of a OSAS paradigm, where Jesus says "Oh, well, you said you are sheep, so come on in, don't worry about what you did"...



Personally, if you want to "paraphrase" that Jesus is not God or that Jesus didn't die on the cross, Judas did, that is your perogative. Doesn't make it right. And I will continue to comment on your mistaken text-twisting.

Nowhere does the Bible state that an individual will not be cast out. It states that the ELECT will not be cast out.

Quite simply, you don't know you are of the elect to heaven. People follow Christ. Doesn't make them "elect". God knows whether they will fall away, and thus, they were not elect. Simply stating "I'm elect and cannot be cast out" is not biblically backed-up, and stating it over and over isn't making it true.

Sorry, but that "baaa" might be the sound of a goat. I hope it is not. But to state NOW that it is a sheep is to take away the Divine Sovereignty of God, Who ALONE judges men. We don't judge ourselves, Paul states.

I was wondering if you are nervous? You know....since you are waiting until the last judgment in order to find out if you are a sheep or a goat?

As long as I remain in Christ, I have confidence that I will be judged positively. 1 John 5:12.

I think what you are having a hard time grasping is that many who follow Jesus never were His to begin with. That is they were not saved to begin with. Judas Iscariot for example. Matthew 7:22,23 Jesus says that many who call me Lord...i will tell depart from me i never knew you. Just because someone follows Jesus does not make them his. It is only those who the Father gives Jesus are the ones that are truly of the flock and will never be told to depart from me. I know that i am one of the elect because of my relationship with my heavenly Father through Jesus and as i said before you dishonor me when you say that i can not know that i am one of the elect. But i forgive you. You see francis you look at salvation as depending on YOUR works my salvation depends on nothing i did or will do.

 

[smaller]

Here is a repeat of some good news!...

The Logical rationale: Rom 8:31-32 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? (Romans 8:31-32)

Paul uses “a fortiori” logic to present God’s way of dealing with mankind.

If God is willing to Give mankind His Highest and Best(His Son) it stands to reason that he would not withhold the lesser(eternal life, deliverance from the lake of fire.....)

The Greek tense Rationale: And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)


The Greek word for “believe” in Acts 16:31 is pisteuo and is in the constantive aeroist tense which means to believe in a point of time which is perpetuated throughout eternity – and you shall be saved forever. This is referring to an instant of faith, and it means once and forever you are saved.

Good posts. Most of the time believers attempting to cast doubt to the salvation of another is looking at the matters of the believer post salvation and judging them imperfect, therefore unworthy, when the fact is none of us were ever perfect to begin with. And very often believers can fall away in this present life post salvation. Given the plethora of 'decisions' that seem to have to be engaged it's no wonder why many fail to make perfect decisions post salvation either OR even be overtaken again by darkness.

This by no means equates to God in Christ ever abandoning them, which those who claim such things couldn't prove anyway other than by their own idle speculations that contradict the effect of being drawn and calling on our Lord Jesus Christ to save us and Him thusly NEVER leaving us or abandoning ship.

There is an exceptionally strong scripture package for OSAS. More than can be discounted, that's for sure. And there are other applications of understandings that deal with the likewise factual scripture sets of becoming once again ensnared by our mutual adversary, the devil, that do not automatically equate to loss of salvation, never having salvation or doubting that temporarily blinded person is no longer saved.

I've pointed this fact out a few times at this board to the 'maybe saved' crowd, that there is not one single scripture in the entire New Testament that show any particular named believer as 'eternally lost and then went or are headed to the Lake of Fire.'

Not a one.

Yet vast crowds have 'derived it' without any proof whatsoever.

s

 

[John Zain]

I disagree. You just don't want to accept John 6:37 do you?
"ALL that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." This one little verse kills your arguement.

I thought we had explained this to thou already ...

Jesus NEVER will cast anyone out who has come in.
However, we can, of our own free will, cast ourselves out
by reneging on our part in the covenant.

And this can be accomplished in a multitude of ways:
walking away from our faith, returning to our former lifestyle of habitually sinning, etc.

Why doesn't thou like Paul's example of the fate of God's "chosen people" in the OT?

 

[John Zain]

The Greek word for “believe” in Acts 16:31 is pisteuo and is in the constantive aeroist tense which means to believe in a point of time which is perpetuated throughout eternity – and you shall be saved forever.
This is referring to an instant of faith, and it means once and forever you are saved.

There are some gospel passages where "pisteuo" in used,
and the people are said to have not been real believers, they followed Jesus no more, etc.
But, I don't know if "pisteuo" was used in the constantive aeroist tense in these cases.

Why don't you provide several impressive verses ...
where "pisteuo" was used in the constantive aeroist tense?

Then we can investigate these, and see what we conclude.
Perhaps, these passages are only talking about the special "elect"
(who are guaranteed salvation).

If we don't hear back form you on this, we'll assume this is the case.

 

[smaller]

Jesus NEVER will cast anyone out who has come in.
However, we can, of our own free will, cast ourselves out
by reneging on our part in the covenant.

Perhaps you can submit for [a personal re-write]?

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man [except you] is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

s

 

[John Zain]

Jude 24-25~~Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory blameless with great joy…” “To the only wise God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory now and forever. Amen.”

By His Grace, God keeps on preventing us from falling.
We do not keep our selves from falling.

SUPER ... but, why does Paul talk about BACs falling away?
And why does Paul warn against BACs falling away?

Houston ... we have a problem here!

Me, I can only conclude that Paul was talking about the "you"s ...
who were seriously committed BACs, who were doing their best to be obedient,
who were repenting of their sins, who were not habitual sinners, etc.! ... the true sheep!

Paul spent 17 years in the desert regions being personally taught by the Lord,
and, IMO, he comprehended more about everything than we do.

 

[Grappler]

I disagree. You just don't want to accept John 6:37 do you?
"ALL that the Father has given me will come to me and whoever comes to me i will never cast out." This one little verse kills your arguement.

I thought we had explained this to thou already ...

Jesus NEVER will cast anyone out who has come in.
However, we can, of our own free will, cast ourselves out
by reneging on our part in the covenant.

And this can be accomplished in a multitude of ways:
walking away from our faith, returning to our former lifestyle of habitually sinning, etc.

Why doesn't thou like Paul's example of the fate of God's "chosen people" in the OT?

No you misquoted scripture. You just said 'Jesus never will cast anyone out who has come in.' Jesus said he will never cast out anyone that the Father has given him. What you don't seem to understand is that the Father has given so many people to come to Jesus and ALL of them will come to Jesus. Jesus said once they come to him he will never cast them out. That is why i love that verse so much...it supports the sovereignty of God over salvation and it supports eternal security.

 

[John Zain]

... there is not one single scripture in the entire New Testament that show any particular named believer as 'eternally lost and then went or are headed to the Lake of Fire.' Not a one.

Heb 6:4-8
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift,
and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Heb 10:26-27
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:29-31
Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Heb 12:14
Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord ...
Side note: Paul says BACs are holy, but here he encourages people to pursue it.

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way
will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

2 Pet 2:20-22
For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb:
“A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Rev 21:7-8
He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death. (Revelation 21:7-8)
Jesus says we must be overcomers like He overcame ...
Rev 3:21 ... To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne,
as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

I'm getting tired, plus I prefer to do stuff in "7"s ...
... may I stop now, or should I list another group of 7?

 

[chessman]

instead if getting indignant and angry

I'm not indignant or angery. But thanks for telling me how I feel.

 

[chessman]

Jesus NEVER will cast anyone out who has come in. However, we can, of our own free will, cast ourselves out by reneging on our part in the covenant.

Starting at the end of the story (the selection of goats versus sheep), so to speak, and working backwards:

Matt 25:33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
​

Jesus PUTS his sheep on his right (heaven).

So how does Jesus treat His sheep while here in this life? Are there examples of lost sheep that walk away and stay lost?

Matthew 12:11 And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out?

Luke 15:4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

John 10:15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep
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So how does one become a sheep?

1 Peter2:21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, …

24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. 25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.
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We are called for the purpose of being “sheepâ€. He bore our sins (past tense) that’s what makes us righteous. And even when a sheep does stray, it will return. Why? Because He IS the good shepherd. He is Guardian of our souls. I don't guard my own soul, Jesus does. By His wounds I am healed (past tense).

 

[John Zain]

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all;
and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Certainly, no man is able.
But, this does not exclude Satan and/or their little old selves.