Bible Study Need help with Matthew 16:28

[Brother Mike]

That is the exact point I was making but the overall tone of your message seems to reflect disagreement. You seem as if I'm making an argument for soul sleep and I'm not, the people in Paradise are certainly alive in the spirit though their body is dead, their body will be resurrected and reunited with their spirit in perfection on the Last Day but they are alive and completely conscious of the joy of being in the presence of Christ until the Last Day, and certainly after the Last Day.

What I want to know is if you believe some of the people mentioned Matthew 16 will not die until they see the Kingdom of God come in glory as those scriptures say, are you therefore arguing that the Kingdom of God did not come in glory during the Transfiguration which some of those mentioned in those verses witnessed, and if so why? If that is what you're arguing, are you also arguing that when the Holy Spirit came in glory to lead believers that the Kingdom of God did not come in glory, and again, if so why? I'll continue further, are you therefore arguing that John, who was among that group, did not see the Kingdom of God come in glory when he was taken to the Last Day to witness the Kingdom of God coming in glory, and if so why?



Are you saying Jesus did not die on the Cross? If there was not death, then there is no sacrifice and no resurrection, and if Christ was not raised from the dead, then we have no hope.

"Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied." - 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

No, I did not see soul sleep in there. All I am saying is that Jesus said some standing here will not taste death, but will see man rewarded for their works, and the Son of man coming in glory with the Angels.

JLB posted it, Rev 19

I am saying it's not that complicated to understand that Jesus said pick up your cross, and you won't ever see death.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." —Revelation 21:8

There is a reason its worded second death, because there is a first death.
You can't deny God and Jesus recognize the first death. He even implies it after the bold letters you quoted. And whoever loses his life (Loss of life by definition is death) for my sake shall find it. (Soul)

Read above what I posted Joe, we are making this far more complicated than it should be. If we believe on Jesus, we shall never taste death. It's not that hard. I gave the scriptures in context, Jesus said if you believe on me you have eternal life. Jesus was not confused our bodies would die, but in his greater understanding, He does not consider us as ever having to die if we believe in him.

We don't have to suffer either, Death has no sting.

Now if you want to drink bleach or something, then you might do some suffering before kacking over. Not advised.

 

[Deborah13]

One, most commentaries are old, their speed at which to reference same words and scripture through a concordance was not there, and no concordance.

I was talking about people who had posted in this thread, not the men who wrote commentaries. But if you are going to make statements about those men and their commentaries you need to know some things.
Why would many of those men who read and wrote Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and Arabic need a concordance? They had more access than we do. They had access to the oldest known MSS of that time. Only the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found since then. Those MSS are written in the original languages. Including the Coptic, Syriac, etc. MSS.

One must first die (be dead) in order to be resurrected from the dead.

Logic works. Amen.

 

[By Grace]

Speaking in tongues is not just for Pentecostals. However, I see your point, I did not mean for it to come off like that. We all should be at least led by the Holy Spirit though. .

Indeed.
However I gotta ask is it your position that those speaking in tongues are somehow "spiritually ahead" of other Christians?

Jesus said if you believe on me, you shall have eternal life. Jesus thinking we are going to die?

Are you claiming that you somehow "know the thoughts of Jesus"?

We pass from death (The state of not being saved) To life.

You are mixing metaphors here because you are not clear in what you express.

How is Jesus looking at being dead? Cmon Deborah

I have no idea what you are trying to express here.

 

[Corn Pop]

Belivers can not taste hades. He said some of you so i guess judas was there when he was speaking.

 

[Brother Mike]

I was talking about people who had posted in this thread, not the men who wrote commentaries. But if you are going to make statements about those men and their commentaries you need to know some things.
Why would many of those men who read and wrote Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and Arabic need a concordance? They had more access than we do. They had access to the oldest known MSS of that time. Only the Dead Sea Scrolls have been found since then. Those MSS are written in the original languages. Including the Coptic, Syriac, etc. MSS.

Logic works. Amen.

We have access to them also, and computers, and different Greek and Hebrew Text. Their love of scriptures is to be commended, but to think you can just have the revelation to break down every scripture, and be way off in places, is an issue with me.

Indeed.
However I gotta ask is it your position that those speaking in tongues are somehow "spiritually ahead" of other Christians?


Are you claiming that you somehow "know the thoughts of Jesus"?


You are mixing metaphors here because you are not clear in what you express.


I have no idea what you are trying to express here.

What are you getting at Grace? You should know the will and Thoughts of Jesus, so your comment bothers me. Jesus did not considered us to taste death if we are in Him. If you abide in him though, and do what He says do, then you should know him and know his voice.

What is your aversion to tongues? We need another tongue thread?

 

[Brother Mike]

Belivers can not taste hades. He said some of you so i guess judas was there when he was speaking.

You must have been sleeping on your bible. Exactly what Jesus meant and the scripture says, "His disciples he spoke to." I am thinking, then who did not make it, then the light came on........... Judas. We don't experience the 2nd death, we don't die in a sense we stop from being for a bit, then come back alive somehow. Our bodies get resurrected into a new body, sown corruptible, raised spiritual. We are not our bodies though.

 

[Corn Pop]

You must have been sleeping on your bible. Exactly what Jesus meant and the scripture says, "His disciples he spoke to." I am thinking, then who did not make it, then the light came on........... Judas. We don't experience the 2nd death, we don't die in a sense we stop from being for a bit, then come back alive somehow. Our bodies get resurrected into a new body, sown corruptible, raised spiritual. We are not our bodies though.

No i didnt sleep with the bible. Lol. I dont even have one at the moment or have read it in months. I just remember things and i know Jesus is simple and not complicated.

 

[Deborah13]

but to think you can just have the revelation to break down every scripture, and be way off in places, is an issue with me.

And just where did you get the idea that is what they thought? If you have ever read any of them at all from that time period you would know that they consulted with each other, etc.
To even think that they claimed they had revelation knowledge of all scripture is misinformation to say the least. If they had ever made such claims they would have lost their credibility.
Where did you hear this?

We have access to them also, and computers, and different Greek and Hebrew Text.

We do? This link is to a side by side Coptic and Greek Bible. But it is not an original text.
http://ixoyc.net/data/Fathers/617.pdf

 

[jocor]

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
(Mat 16:28)

You are using this verse to say that there are believers that did not taste of death. Since this verse says "some", does that not imply that only "some" believers will not taste of death until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom, but all others will taste of death? To say that no believers will taste death makes this verse nonsense. To harmonize with what you are teaching, this verse should read, "Verily I say unto you, All that are standing here, shall not taste of death."

Then said Jesus unto his disciples,

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom (Mat 16:24-28)

The phrase "and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" means any believer who loses his life (dies, is dead, tastes death) will find it (will receive his life back). He will "find it" when he is resurrected from a state of being dead. It is not only his body that is dead, but the entire person. The only thing that left the person at death was his 'spirit" (ruach - breath of life - Ecc 12:7). When Yeshua returns he will return life to them along with a new heavenly body.

 

[By Grace]

What are you getting at Grace? You should know the will and Thoughts of Jesus, so your comment bothers me.

I am seeking clarification because at the moment, it seems as if you may be pushing a pentecostal agenda.

Jesus did not considered us to taste death if we are in Him

.
What do you mean here?

If you abide in him though, and do what He says do, then you should know him and know his voice.

Please explain the connection between this sentence and the previous sentence. It does mot seem to follow.

What is your aversion to tongues? We need another tongue thread?

I have no "aversion to tongues". My viewpoint is "see not, forbid not" and it is backed by 2 Corinthians 14: 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

[eddif]

Lord of lords and King of kings.

Jewish (Pentecost)
Gentile (Gentile inclusion)
Heaven (angels)
Judgement seat (sheep and goats)


In one sense several thoughts are included in kingdom. The kingdom is not just exclusive Gentile or exclusive Jew or exclusive dead in Christ or exclusive alive or ...,

I stress inside

eddif

 

[eddif]

I Corinthians 3:4
For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere human beings?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

He has hidden his treasures in earthern vessels.

eddif

 

[Brother Mike]

You are using this verse to say that there are believers that did not taste of death. Since this verse says "some", does that not imply that only "some" believers will not taste of death until they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom, but all others will taste of death? To say that no believers will taste death makes this verse nonsense. To harmonize with what you are teaching, this verse should read, "Verily I say unto you, All that are standing here, shall not taste of death."



The phrase "and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it" means any believer who loses his life (dies, is dead, tastes death) will find it (will receive his life back). He will "find it" when he is resurrected from a state of being dead. It is not only his body that is dead, but the entire person. The only thing that left the person at death was his 'spirit" (ruach - breath of life - Ecc 12:7). When Yeshua returns he will return life to them along with a new heavenly body.

I will not attempt to get around your understanding of we being a spirit, and not some breath of God, or your understanding of soul sleeping or not being aware after our physical bodies dies. You have a whole other doctrine in the way here, and we have many threads that talk about it.

And just where did you get the idea that is what they thought? If you have ever read any of them at all from that time period you would know that they consulted with each other, etc.
To even think that they claimed they had revelation knowledge of all scripture is misinformation to say the least. If they had ever made such claims they would have lost their credibility.
Where did you hear this?

We do? This link is to a side by side Coptic and Greek Bible. But it is not an original text.
http://ixoyc.net/data/Fathers/617.pdf

I have read enough to know that half of what they say is way off. I have nothing against them, they loved the Word and they studied hard despite the tools they had to study with.

to think they have more insight way back when, than we do today is also pretty silly. We have what they said right and wrong, and a lot of commentaries are coming out of the Darkness of the Roman Catholic church. The Word was hidden for years, and it's like starting over again. So the foundation they laid, can be built on and made better. Those that wrote commentaries are no different that us, no more knowledgeable and I can promise none study any harder than I have through the years. They are just men, with what understanding the Holy Spirit had given them. Same Holy Spirit we have today.

blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus is speaking here about following him, taking up our cross, loose our own life. He is not talking about our body, which confused the Jews. We won't see death of any kind. Our bodies will stop functioning, but we are not our bodies, they are just for moving around earth in.

Help me out here, bro. There's a lot of stuff being thrown around here. Bear with my confusion 2.

"...there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28 NASB)

You say the death being spoken of here is spiritual death. Are you saying some who were there wouldn't see spiritual death until Christ's second return?

 

[Brother Mike]

Help me out here, bro. There's a lot of stuff being thrown around here. Bear with my confusion 2.

"...there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28 NASB)

You say the death being spoken of here is spiritual death. Are you saying some who were there wouldn't see spiritual death until Christ's second return?

The verse you posted brother has been misunderstood by most the guys writing commentaries, And apparently those around here, which is shocking to me.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
(Joh 8:51-52)

See Jethro, Jesus said this to the Jews, and they are like, wait a freaking minute!!! Abraham is dead, you have a devil, that's not possible!!!

Almost like reading the forums. "You have doctrines of devils!!!!!"

However, we know what Jesus was talking about who Abolished death and gave us eternal life. We will see without dying, the Lord return with his angels.

Rom_2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

So by Faith in Jesus, we have immortality, and eternal life. We don't die, we just leave our earthly tabernacle. This is what Jesus was saying, and why it confused the Jews. The Sadducee's did not believe in eternal life, and did not believe there was anything after we die, or reward. So what Jesus was saying would not have made sense to most of them.

Blessings Jethro, it's so simple, that it gets confusing.

 

[JoJoe]

The verse you posted brother has been misunderstood by most the guys writing commentaries, And apparently those around here, which is shocking to me.

I don't read commentaries, defeats the purpose. Brother Mike , with all do respect. We understand the fact that we have eternal life, that we will not taste of the second death.

Reading my last post I was forgetting the way God see's death. We can all agree (hopefully) that death means separation. When we gave our lives brother we separated; and thus is why we are a living sacrifice(Romans 12). No matter what we will still come into sin until we are fully released from it.
I agree with what you are saying. It doesn't give us a right to state "Christians won't die." Our soul won't but, sin(our flesh) will stay with the earth when we are separated to the place nothing of the earth can go.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, we know what Jesus was talking about who Abolished death and gave us eternal life. We will see without dying, the Lord return with his angels.

I guess what I can't see in the passage is how the 'until' in the passage can be there and this still be a passage about spiritual death. If the death spoken about is spiritual death then Jesus is saying some here won't die spiritual deaths until they see him coming in (the splendor of) his kingdom, not that they won't ever die a spiritual or physical death.

"...there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste (spiritual) death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." (Matthew 16:28 NASB parenthesis inserted)

If Jesus means physical death then it makes perfect sense to say some here won't die their expected and inevitable physical deaths UNTIL they see his kingdom glory.

 

[Brother Mike]

I don't read commentaries, defeats the purpose. Brother Mike , with all do respect. We understand the fact that we have eternal life, that we will not taste of the second death.

Reading my last post I was forgetting the way God see's death. We can all agree (hopefully) that death means separation. When we gave our lives brother we separated; and thus is why we are a living sacrifice(Romans 12). No matter what we will still come into sin until we are fully released from it.
I agree with what you are saying. It doesn't give us a right to state "Christians won't die." Our soul won't but, sin(our flesh) will stay with the earth when we are separated to the place nothing of the earth can go.

What point then does Eternal life kick in Joe? Is it like some contract that says after your body dies, then the eternal life part kicks into effect?

Since Jesus abolished death already, then were is the part that you actually experience death? We are spirits, and Ecc says our spirit goes back to God, it does not die, despite our flesh house stops working.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(Jas 2:26)

Your body can't continue to function if your not in it. Just because your not in your body, does not mean your dead, or have died.

Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
(Eph 3:15)

You have family in heaven, and here on earth. Your family in Heaven never died, they just moved. You will see them soon enough.

I hope you don't get to heaven, see everyone and say, "Man, I thought you all were dead." No, they will tell you they never died, they just moved, and glad to see you.

 

[Deborah13]

Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
(Joh 8:51-52)

Let's try underlining what Jesus actually said compared to what the Jews heard.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
The Jews misquoted what Jesus said.
Jesus said that if one kept His sayings they would never spiritually die.
The Jews said that He said, if one kept His sayings, they would never physically die.
According to this scripture, to taste of death, means to physically die. There is no reason for any other interpretation here, it is very clear when read in context of the following statement by the Jews.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
I think I am now repeating myself, enough said by me, unless I can contribute something new.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Whether Christ is speaking of physical death or spiritual death, the point to me is he said whatever death that is won't happen 'till' they see him coming in his kingdom.

And because that's the point, he is, IMO, talking about physical death. I don't see any valuable spiritual point in saying some there won't die spiritual deaths UNTIL they see him in his kingdom, but may well die spiritually after that?.