No answers for problem of evil

[GodsGrace]

Good and evil is all about freewill choices that are made that began with the creation of angels who chose to rebel against God before and after the foundation of the world and way before Adam. Proverbs 6:18; Isaiah 14:12-14; Jude 1:6

Before God created angels He was and is the only one that was good. Everything God created, beginning with the angels, was good until the freewill of the angels caused some, including Satan, to rebel against God. God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him, Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28.

Some do not understand the above passages on predestination. They think that if a person is not of those predestinated, he is just out of luck, is eternally damned, and there is nothing he can do about it. However, it is a particular group or class of people that God chose before the foundation of the world and not individuals. It is up to us to be part of that class of those "in Him" if we want to be of the chosen.

By using our free-will we choose whether to be "in Christ" and thus saved, Gal. 3:26-27. So, we see God's part in His gracious plan of human redemption which is accomplished through the death of Christ, and man's part, faith in Christ, James. 2:14-26; Matt. 7:21-23, combining to complete the equation of salvation, Eph. 2:8-9.

The word form is MORPHE and means "having the characteristics or features of a person or thing; having the nature of the individual." Jesus was not meaning "to take the place of", but "coming into an equality of the nature and characteristics of the Father". We can do this through the fruit of the Spirit.

You always fall back on predestination and calvinism.
Free will is not the problem here...
EVIL is the problem.
Jesus has nothing to do with this entire conversation.

I understand where you're at. I was stuck there for years.
It wasn't easy when I realized this problem...
OzSpen thinks I'm using circular reasoning...No, the problem is that there is no answer and some here are just not willing to accept this.

I'd say that if a person, such as yourself, feels they have the answer...then they should stay with it. It might last them their entire life and they'll be satisfied. Or, maybe someday they'll realize it's not enough...whatever the Holy Spirit desires for YOU.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, assuming God only made "good" things, "evil" is actually also good because evil is a necessary component of free-will, which is good. Kind of makes me wonder if people in heaven will have free-will if evil is necessary for it. You need free-will to love and i'm guessing people in heaven will keep loving God. If evil isn't necessary for free-will...

You bring up a very interesting point.
Unfortunately for me, I seem to be the only person on this thread that seems to get about evil.

It also brings up the matter of free will.
Could God not have made a world without evil?
MUST we get cancer so we could get to choose whether or not we want God in our lives? Couldn't we have had this choice anyway without every worrying about getting a tumor?

Persons in heaven will NOT have free will since their only will is to serve, honor and love God and one another. Just what Jesus taught.

So, your question is a very valid one: If free will is not in heaven because evil is not in heaven, then we will not have free will but only the will to serve God.

HOWEVER, we must not forget that those in heaven DID CHOOSE to be there...something that could have been done even without evil being present in the world.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is not what Unconditional Election means and you are confusing it with Total Inability in the first sentence and Double Predestination in the second sentenice.

Unconditional Election means that whatever the reason was that God chose to save you (Election), God’s choice was not based on (not conditioned on) anything deserving in us. The opposite would be “Conditional Election” which would claim that God chose to save us because we somehow deserved it more than those that were not saved.

I agree.
Either I didn't explain myself properly, or you didn't understand it.

I said that UE means we did nothing to deserve being saved or NOT being saved. It is totally up to God to save a person or not.

We seem to have a problem understanding each other.
I DO agree with your explanation of election...
and you do know that I do NOT agree with Unconditional Election...

I DO agree with conditional election...Election is based on conditions that are required to be met by us.

 

[OzSpen]

You get 3 answers here:

1. create means to make from NOTHING. Only God can create. I did say that we use this term incorrectly these days. It is also used to mean that we take what is ALREADY created (like wood) and make something with it). It is said we create art...etc.

Create.
To create is to cause something to exist which did not exist before, as distinguished from make , to re-form something already in existence.

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/create/


2. No. The correct question is NOT: What caused evil to enter into the human race.

THIS is the EASY question. YOU have started a thread on the DIFFICULT question: NO ANSWERS FOR THE PROBLEM OF EVIL.
The title is correct...it's you and others that cannot accept the answer.

3. I know you don't accept "my" conclusion...and I've said several times that since there is no answer it's pretty useless to continue any discussion with ME - although others could continue.

And it is not MY conclusion: This is the most difficult problem facing Christianity.

Here's the problem:
GOD IS OMNIPOTENT.
GOD IS ALL-GOOD.

So...does God not want evil but cannot stop it?
This would make Him a weak God and not omnipotent.

Does God want evil and so won't stop it?
This would make Him a malevolent God.

And therein lies the problem Christianity faces for which there is no answer.

Choice, as you refer to, has to do with our being human and not being robots. Our choices can cause MORAL EVIL,,,but they cannot cause NATURAL EVIL.

wondering,

Natural evil is a flow on effect from moral evil.

Why don't you read William Lane Craig's explanation of 'God’s Permitting Natural Evil'.

This article is quite a bit philosophical but I'm convinced it provides some answers to your questions about causes of natural evil.

There is another dimension to natural evil. Read about it in Gen 6-9 (NLT). See also Amos 2:1-16 (NLT). Joel 2:1-17 (NLT) gives a similar message.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

HOWEVER, we must not forget that those in heaven DID CHOOSE to be there...something that could have been done even without evil being present in the world.

wondering,

That is not according to the message of Gen 2:16-17 (NLT): 'But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die'.

We chose to accept God's offer of salvation and that is based on the same principle of choice of A & E choosing to eat from the tree of the knowledge of 'good and evil' in the Garden

We can't have freedom of choice for salvation and not freedom to choose good or evil in the beginning.

It's a package of freedom of choice and choosing evil is part of the bundle. If you don't like the choice of good vs evil in the beginning, you will need to chuck it out along with every other ability to choose, e.g. ham, fillet steak, fish & chips, Pepsi, new king single sheets, or another car. Eliminate the choice of evil and you make us into automatons who bow to the unconditional will of the autocratic God who drags some into the kingdom while excluding most others.

Oz

 

[John Doe Smith]

The garden in Eden was good...very good before the snake ever got into it...and so was man.

Man didn't have knowledge of good and evil though. In heaven, either souls will be stripped of this knowledge, or they wont have free-will, or for whatever reason they'll have no desire to sin. They'll change in some way. I wonder why this change couldn't have been made immediately, considering the inevitable massive bottle neck on humanity free from hell.

 

[GodsGrace]

And if you don't ,then logically you,must believe that God can't influence your will nor you his.
I,have seen that stated.pastors words today on the matter.

Jesus said that WHATEVER we asked in His name we would get. I don't see this happening...so I have to believe that we can influence God's will only IF HE is willing to answer our prayers - which sometimes He is not.

As to us...yes, God does influence us. But an influence is different from a forcible affect He would have on us.

God is AN INFLUENCE... that's all. We are still free to decide as we want to.

He drew a diagram of two circles,mans will under a smaller circle ,Gods will surrounds it and said men I,,this circle have free will,and nothing in,your life ability is outside of God's will.

Sure. Whatever God wills, He can do. Which is why evil is such a big problem.

But it depends on what that pastor meant by this circle. IF he meant that God's will ALWAYS supersedes ours ... then he is saying we have NO FREE WILL,,,and this is NOT what the bible teaches. The bible teaches that we have free will to do as we want to do. Just see Deuteronomy 30:19....God sets before us life and death...He tells us that we are to CHOOSE which we want.

Choice demonstrates free will.

Do you believe that God won't one day on the day of appointment of death ,let you die?
For it is appointed unto all men death then the judgement .do you think,that you can ear right ,work out and that old body. Will last forever ?that your genes ,how God made you ,or how others actions are not gonna shirten or lenghten your life that your really can make you ,you ?that God doesn't control that ,stops or allows Satan or allows anyone from killing or harning you ,that God doesn't allow you to live or die for to give Him,glory?

I'm sorry Jason,,,this is such a silly question I'm not even going to answer it. Do you think that I think that I'M god??

Lightning has nearky struck me numerous times ,while reading meters ,serving my country ,arty rounds nearky,landed where i was standing minutes ago.but I being all knowing just decided I,will,live ?

If you,agree with that or don't ,you,might be a reformed person .dies God foreknow your choices?he didn't know or have you in mind eons ago ?
[/QUOTE]
God foreknows my choices...
He doesn't cause my choices.

Can you explain the difference to me?

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Natural evil is a flow on effect from moral evil.

Why don't you read William Lane Craig's explanation of 'God’s Permitting Natural Evil'.

This article is quite a bit philosophical but I'm convinced it provides some answers to your questions about causes of natural evil.

There is another dimension to natural evil. Read about it in Gen 6-9 (NLT). See also Amos 2:1-16 (NLT). Joel 2:1-17 (NLT) gives a similar message.

Oz

I like Wm. Lane Craig.
He said God PERMITS Natural Evil.

If he said that it is a flow from Moral Evil then he'll have to explain how that could be.

How does Moral Evil cause a hurricane? An earthquake? A Tsunami?

You keep offering me answers to my questions.
I don't have any questions...not on this subject.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

That is not according to the message of Gen 2:16-17 (NLT): 'But the Lord God warned him, “You may freely eat the fruit of every tree in the garden— except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die'.

We chose to accept God's offer of salvation and that is based on the same principle of choice of A & E choosing to eat from the tree of the knowledge of 'good and evil' in the Garden

We can't have freedom of choice for salvation and not freedom to choose good or evil in the beginning.

It's a package of freedom of choice and choosing evil is part of the bundle. If you don't like the choice of good vs evil in the beginning, you will need to chuck it out along with every other ability to choose, e.g. ham, fillet steak, fish & chips, Pepsi, new king single sheets, or another car. Eliminate the choice of evil and you make us into automatons who bow to the unconditional will of the autocratic God who drags some into the kingdom while excluding most others.

Oz

I somewhat agree with the above.
The ability to choose makes us free agents.

What if evil was not in the world?
We would not get sick...there would be no earthquakes, etc.
But wouldn't we still be able to choose whether or not we wanted to serve God?

I've never really thought about this too much, but it seems to me that THAT choice (of choosing God) would still be possible.

Also, you keep bringing up the ability to choose cheese or ham...
when the bible speaks of choice, it is speaking of MORAL choices.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Natural evil is a flow on effect from moral evil.

Why don't you read William Lane Craig's explanation of 'God’s Permitting Natural Evil'.

This article is quite a bit philosophical but I'm convinced it provides some answers to your questions about causes of natural evil.

There is another dimension to natural evil. Read about it in Gen 6-9 (NLT). See also Amos 2:1-16 (NLT). Joel 2:1-17 (NLT) gives a similar message.

Oz

I forgot about your verses above. Sorry.

Genesis 6:9....I don't know why you posted this.

Amos 2:1-16...so are you saying it's God that creates evil?

Joel 2:1-17...to me this is different than Amos,,,it seems to me that it's saying more how the EFFECT will be if the people do not return to God whereas in Amos it seems to be God saying that He will "punish" them and bring curses upon them.

Not sure what this has to do with the problem of evil.

 

[John Doe Smith]

God sets before us life and death...He tells us that we are to CHOOSE which we want.

This is interesting. Isn't hell also life? It's an excrutiating life, but a life nonetheless. Woudn't true death be nothingness, to stop existing? You can't request God destroy your soul and be done with it. That's not an option as far as I know.

 

[GodsGrace]

This is interesting. Isn't hell also life? It's an excrutiating life, but a life nonetheless. Woudn't true death be nothingness, to stop existing? You can't request God destroy your soul and be done with it. That's not an option as far as I know.

When we speak normally, yes, even hell would be life, although a very bad life to say the least. This life means being alive.

But, biblically speaking, life means more than just living. Jesus said He came to give us LIFE and a life more abundant. When the bible speaks of life, it is speaking of zoe life.

Here is an article that explains this very well. It's referring to John 10:10...

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal , and to kill, and to destroy : I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."

Zoë Life, the Life of God for Every Believer, Don't Live Without It!

UNDERSTANDING AND APPROPRIATING THE LIFE OF GOD In the text below, Jesus Himself is speaking and the topic is life and more importantly life that overflows. Understanding John 10:10 is most important to every Christian because it determines life or death or really living compared to mere physical ex

www.linkedin.com

 

[stovebolts]

So where does sin come from?

Sin is the result of not following God's commands regardless of why. If we use archery as an example, we know that in archery the object is to hit the mark. The picture of sin is shown when we miss that mark.

So we see that sin / evil is nothing more than living outside how God would have us to live.

We see in the creation account that what God creates, is good. It's worthy to note that darkness is not created, rather, it's the absence of that which is created. We know that God is love, and it is out of his essence (love) that life as we understand came into existence, and this draws a picture for us to view good and evil. God speaks (which is an act of creation), and there is light. Before that act of creation, darkness existed. So we see that darkness is created when there is a withholding of light.

What then is evil? It is the absence of goodness which was withheld, and we know that goodness is the result of an act of creation. In other words, goodness is created by what we do and evil is the void when goodness isn't created.

Each and every day we have the opportunity to create light in a dark world, or we can ignore the darkness in which case we've allowed darkness to remain. Think of it like this.

It is evil to allow another to go through starvation, especially when one has the means to provide nourishment. In this picture, starvation is darkness and giving food is light. Starvation is a state of darkness because it's the lack of sustenance which nourishes our body. In Leviticus 23, it is repeated for a second time that the farmers were to leave the corners of their fields unharvested so the LORD could provide sustenance to those in need of nourishment. Thus, to fail to provide for the needs of others through what God has blessed you with is to miss the mark (sin) and when we miss the mark, evil is produced.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sin is the result of not following God's commands regardless of why. If we use archery as an example, we know that in archery the object is to hit the mark. The picture of sin is shown when we miss that mark.

So we see that sin / evil is nothing more than living outside how God would have us to live.

We see in the creation account that what God creates, is good. It's worthy to note that darkness is not created, rather, it's the absence of that which is created. We know that God is love, and it is out of his essence (love) that life as we understand came into existence, and this draws a picture for us to view good and evil. God speaks (which is an act of creation), and there is light. Before that act of creation, darkness existed. So we see that darkness is created when there is a withholding of light.

What then is evil? It is the absence of goodness, and we know that goodness is an act of creation.

Each and every day we have the opportunity to create light in a dark world, or we can ignore the darkness in which case we've allowed darkness to remain. Think of it like this.

It is evil to allow another to go through starvation, especially when one has the means to provide nourishment. In this picture, starvation is darkness and giving food is light. Starvation is a state of darkness because it's the lack of sustenance which nourishes our body. In Leviticus 23, it is repeated for a second time that the farmers were to leave the corners of their fields unharvested so the LORD could provide sustenance to those in need of nourishment. Thus, to fail to provide for the needs of others through what God has blessed you with is to miss the mark (sin) and when we miss the mark, evil is produced.

Hi SB,
Yes indeed ... the above explains where sin comes from.
But I was asking a deeper question: Why is sin here at all?
The O.P. is saying there is n o answer for the problem of evil,,,but then OzSpen goes on to explain it!

The fact is that there is no answer for the problem of evil.
You've read many books....have you ever read one that answered this?

We know how sin came into the world...
But how did sin begin? That's the problem.

It's a good conversation for those interested....
I'm not expecting an answer for this...
(nor do I need one in regards to my Christianity).

P.S.
Pizza time in Italy!
Later.

 

[stovebolts]

The fact is that there is no answer for the problem of evil.
You've read many books....have you ever read one that answered this?

If we ask the wrong question, we will always get the wrong answer.

The problem of evil can always be overcome by being agents of light. Thus, the answer to evil, is goodness, just as the problem with darkness, is light.

We know how sin came into the world...
But how did sin begin? That's the problem.

If we know how sin came into the world, then we also know how it began... It began when it entered. What am I missing?

 

[JohnDB]

Man didn't have knowledge of good and evil though. In heaven, either souls will be stripped of this knowledge, or they wont have free-will, or for whatever reason they'll have no desire to sin. They'll change in some way. I wonder why this change couldn't have been made immediately, considering the inevitable massive bottle neck on humanity free from hell.

I'll let you figure out your own logic flaw on your own for this one.
(Answered already in this thread)

 

[for_his_glory]

D, I was explaining to Jason what unconditional election is because it seemed like he didn't know.

I don't believe in it --- !

I don't believe in unconditional election either.

Unconditional election, also known as unconditional grace is a Reformed doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past before He created the world where He predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest to He left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the OT and NT of the Bible. God made these choices according to His own purpose apart from any conditions or qualities related to the person.

The counter view to unconditional election is conditional election. The belief that God chooses for eternal salvation those who He foreknows will exercise their free will to respond to God's prevenient grace with faith in Christ.

 

[GodsGrace]

If we ask the wrong question, we will always get the wrong answer.

The problem of evil can always be overcome by being agents of light. Thus, the answer to evil, is goodness, just as the problem with darkness, is light.

If we know how sin came into the world, then we also know how it began... It began when it entered. What am I missing?

What are you missing...
Nothing, if we're discussing how sin entered the world.

If God is all good and everything He created was good, according to Genesis 1....then how did evil come about?

Evil can be moral evil or it can be natural evil.
Moral evil is evil that persons do that can cause distress to another person. Natural evil is the evil we find in nature that we have no control over.

Everything is infected with evil.
Where did it come from? (Not talking about sin).

for_his_glory believes it originated with satan.
How could this be if all God made was good?
How did satan become evil?

As you can see, it did NOT originate with satan,,,it was already available.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't believe in unconditional election either.

Unconditional election, also known as unconditional grace is a Reformed doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God in eternity past before He created the world where He predestined some people to receive salvation, the elect, and the rest to He left to continue in their sins and receive the just punishment, eternal damnation, for their transgressions of God's law as outlined in the OT and NT of the Bible. God made these choices according to His own purpose apart from any conditions or qualities related to the person.

The counter view to unconditional election is conditional election. The belief that God chooses for eternal salvation those who He foreknows will exercise their free will to respond to God's prevenient grace with faith in Christ.

Of course I'm in agreement with you.
Romans 8:28-30 spells this out clearly.
God predestined HOW we would be saved,,,not WHO would be saved.

And He also knew who would accept that salvation...but knowing is not causal...it's just a foreknowledge.

The problem I have with calvinism is that it changes the nature of God. Also the fact that some pastors try to sneak it into their sermons without making it clear that they are reformed in their doctrinal belief.

 

[for_his_glory]

You always fall back on predestination and calvinism.
Free will is not the problem here...
EVIL is the problem.
Jesus has nothing to do with this entire conversation.

I understand where you're at. I was stuck there for years.
It wasn't easy when I realized this problem...
OzSpen thinks I'm using circular reasoning...No, the problem is that there is no answer and some here are just not willing to accept this.

I'd say that if a person, such as yourself, feels they have the answer...then they should stay with it. It might last them their entire life and they'll be satisfied. Or, maybe someday they'll realize it's not enough...whatever the Holy Spirit desires for YOU.

I'm falling back on what scripture says and I don't know much of anything about Calvinism. You keep asking where does evil/sin come from and that's what I have been trying to explain.

Free will, predestination and that of Christ Jesus has everything to do with there being an answer to the problem of evil as OzSpen already explained the title as being a question and not a statement of "no" there is no answer in his post # 87.

What I have been posting explains the answer to the problem of evil/sin within the where it originated before the foundation of the world, how it came to be in humans and what can we do with the problem of evil/sin found in us. It's all explained in the Bible and not that hard to understand.