No answers for problem of evil

[GodsGrace]

Wondering,

As I've stated throughout this thread, evil is not the absence of good but is a decision by A & E to choose to disobey God's rules. Evil entering the human race is a direct result of disobedience of God.

Of course Satan still exists, operates in the world, but his end is coming. It will be in the the Lake of Fire.



Rom 12:21 (NLT) states, 'Don’t let evil conquer you, but conquer evil by doing good'. This does not mean that evil is completely removed from within me. I can choose to do good as opposed to evil. But I'm still left with Paul's struggle with sin, articulated in Rom 7.

He wrote in Rom 7:15 (NLT): 'I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate'.

He was born again but he still wrestled with sin within. That is a life-long battle.




Why can't you accept that fact that God only ALLOWS people the choice of breaking a relationship with him = creation of evil?

I cannot see any way of my or others convincing you of evil entering the human race because you seem to be looking for 'a thing' called 'evil'. There is no thing = evil. There is a broken relationship between A & E and God and that was when the knowledge of evil entered the human race. Why can't you accept that explanation?



I find your premise to be false. Where does Scripture state that evil is necessary to know good. That sounds extra-biblical to me but I'm open to your convincing me that is biblical Christianity.

To address your second comment, why don't you join with me in discussing it in: Who or what causes physical evil in the world?

Oz

I also do NOT believe that evil is the absence of good, I was stating what GotQuestons had written in the article you posted for me.

I also don't believe that evil is necessary to know good. I'm sorry if I confused the discussion by stating what OTHERS believe.

Again, I don't have a problem with evil entering into the human race...I u ndersatand about A and E.

The problem, as I and others wiser than I, is that there is no solution to the PROBLEM OF EVIL since God is all good and we believe HE did not create evil -- and yet it exists.

I'll go to the other thread....

 

[for_his_glory]

Between you and me ... Scripture is a fence sitter on that topic as well. It comes down to an inference from a personal view of God.

Limited Atonement: Jesus knew exactly which sins he was dying for and didn’t even bother to waste one drop of blood on most people (wide is the path that leads to destruction), but every drop of blood that Jesus shed fully accomplished its purpose of forgiving a sin and transforming a Saint.

Unlimited Atonement: Jesus shed his blood for all, granting all equal opportunity for access to the Father, but the blood alone saved no one because most for whom Jesus blood was shed will ultimately reach destruction via the wide path ... so salvation requires the Blood of Christ plus SOMETHING else. Since Jesus paid for the sin on the cross and the unrepentant pays for that same sin in Hell, God punishes the same sin twice.

Scripture can support either logical consequence, so which poison do you prefer to swallow?

Scripture is never a fence sitter on anything. God's word is percise and to the point and Jesus died paying the price for the wages of all our sin. There is no such thing as limited atonement as Christ died for all, not just a select few, but it's the whosoever that believe in Christ that will have everlasting life. It's the blood of Jesus that has redeemed us from the curse of the law and washed us clean again by that blood sacrifice He made for everyone, but it's up to everyone to accept Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Evil is an adjective meaning immoral and wicked. It's an action, thought or attitude that is contrary to the character or will of God. Evil is acted upon when we are in disobedience to God's commands like that of Adam and Eve allowing themselves to be deceived and then trying to hide from God. God made atonement for their sin when they realized they were naked and broke fellowship with God as He made the first blood sacrifice and covered their nakedness with coats of skin as the atonement was God covering their sin in His righteousness.

 

[stovebolts]

Yes, pretty much, I believe anything could be used for good or evil.

Of course, the above does not get us any closer to knowing WHAT originally caused evil....not like I'm trying to understand it anymore.

After reading post 10, I've concluded that your examples are examples of discernment. You would agree that the Bible is the ruler which we measure with.

You continually ask what originally caused evil. Why is the answer to this question so glaringly obvious to me, yet remains so painfully allusive to yourself? I feel like I'm missing something in your explanations, but can't put my finger on it.

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Evil is created when we fail to do that which is right in Gods eye.

We were created in Gods image, yet we lack maturity. Just like an infant has no knowledge of good or evil, neither did Adam and Eve until they stopped trusting in God to meet their needs and started trusting in their own understanding.

Put it this way. Job knew of God, but it was the going through his trials that Job started to know who God was. Trials bring us to bedrock and if we can hold onto God, wisdom is gained.

I quoted Genesis 4 above because there is wisdom there. When we fail to do what's right, which is to say, when we fail to listen to the small still voice within us, sin is crouching waiting to still the joy from this world. As a result, we must rule over these desires and put them in their proper places.

We see Eve struggled with these same desires, and because she stopped trusting God, she was tricked and did not rule over her desires, but instead let her desires rule over her.


On the same note, Adam let his desire for his wife rule over his desire to obey God and when this occurred, "bad" things happened. Or did they?

It seems to me that what your really asking is this. Why did God create humanity with free will.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Why did God create humanity with free will.

I've asked this question and I think I recall wondering saying free-will is necessary for love and without it people would be like automatons. It may seem like there's a contradiction or something unclear about apologetics related to the subject of free-will.

 

[stovebolts]

I've asked this question and I think I recall wondering saying free-will is necessary for love and without it people would be like automatons. It may seem like there's a contradiction or something unclear about apologetics related to the subject of free-will.

Apologetics has the goal of reasoning, and there is certainly nothing wrong with being able to reason. Even Abraham reasoned God could, and would raise Isaac from the grave. ( Hebrews 11:9 ). However, if we have a flawed understanding of a topic , we can often ask the wrong questions which result in flawed reasoning.

This in and of itself is not a bad thing. We all have flawed reasoning and none of us truly know the things of God. But we have a desire to know, which God has placed in each and every heart. ( Ecclesiastes 3:11 ). We are all growing, and these discussions aid in that growth.

Evil is no more an object to be held than Freewill is an object to be held. Instead, they are both concepts used in describing or articulating an event. They are not the events in themselves.

Cain killed his brother Able when Able did nothing warranting being killed. Killing in and of itself is not evil, but we do have to discern when killing becomes murder. Let me explain with these two stories that are headlines in the news.

A white supremacist kills a Jew he does not know let alone ever met on a Jewish holiday for no other reason than his own hatred for an idea that he disagrees with. The Jew is killed not as an individual for something he has done wrong, but instead is killed as an opposing idea.

The second is the shooting of two parashioners in Texas at the church of Christ during communion. The active shooter was shot and killed.

Which incidents do we account as an evil event? Why?

Both events resulted in a premature loss of life due to an action of another individual. Yet i would contend that two acts we're evil and are deserving of punishment so that no further innocent lives are lost while the other act requires grace.

In the above scenarios, premature death is not the deciding factor that we label as evil. Instead, we reason the why of these actions based on our value system and then assign the label as evil or not. Certainly we would not label shooting another in the head as to prevent further loss of innocent life evil. Tragic perhaps, but not evil. But we would call ending innocent lives with hatred as a motivator evil.

 

[GodsGrace]

After reading post 10, I've concluded that your examples are examples of discernment. You would agree that the Bible is the ruler which we measure with.

You continually ask what originally caused evil. Why is the answer to this question so glaringly obvious to me, yet remains so painfully allusive to yourself? I feel like I'm missing something in your explanations, but can't put my finger on it.

Genesis 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Evil is created when we fail to do that which is right in Gods eye.

We were created in Gods image, yet we lack maturity. Just like an infant has no knowledge of good or evil, neither did Adam and Eve until they stopped trusting in God to meet their needs and started trusting in their own understanding.

Put it this way. Job knew of God, but it was the going through his trials that Job started to know who God was. Trials bring us to bedrock and if we can hold onto God, wisdom is gained.

I quoted Genesis 4 above because there is wisdom there. When we fail to do what's right, which is to say, when we fail to listen to the small still voice within us, sin is crouching waiting to still the joy from this world. As a result, we must rule over these desires and put them in their proper places.

We see Eve struggled with these same desires, and because she stopped trusting God, she was tricked and did not rule over her desires, but instead let her desires rule over her.


On the same note, Adam let his desire for his wife rule over his desire to obey God and when this occurred, "bad" things happened. Or did they?

It seems to me that what your really asking is this. Why did God create humanity with free will.

NO!
I'm not asking why God created humanity with free will.
I'm a freewiller a some reformed call me.

The evil I'm speaking to comes way before the bible.
Original Sin entered the human race when the fruit was eaten...so there was no O.S. before that. O.S. is what makes us sin....so what made A and E sin?

The snake? What was the snake doing in the Garden anyway?
Where did satan's pride begin?

The answer is not obvious. I posted some really good videos from YouTube before and if you just watch one you'd understand what I'm saying. This problem of Christianity has been known to me for decades now.

How sin entered the world is glaringly obvious.
How or why we have evil is not.

The following starts at about 7.0

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is never a fence sitter on anything. God's word is percise and to the point and Jesus died paying the price for the wages of all our sin. There is no such thing as limited atonement as Christ died for all, not just a select few, but it's the whosoever that believe in Christ that will have everlasting life. It's the blood of Jesus that has redeemed us from the curse of the law and washed us clean again by that blood sacrifice He made for everyone, but it's up to everyone to accept Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Evil is an adjective meaning immoral and wicked. It's an action, thought or attitude that is contrary to the character or will of God. Evil is acted upon when we are in disobedience to God's commands like that of Adam and Eve allowing themselves to be deceived and then trying to hide from God. God made atonement for their sin when they realized they were naked and broke fellowship with God as He made the first blood sacrifice and covered their nakedness with coats of skin as the atonement was God covering their sin in His righteousness.

I'd have to agree with you and say that if the reformed faith wants to believe in Unconditional Election, then by necessity they'd also have to believe in Limited Atonement. How could one possibly be true without the other?

I believe Christ died not only for our sins... "our" meaning ANYONE that wants to believe, have faith and be saved. The bible sends this invitation to everyone...not just a select few.

...He died for our sins. But Christ also died for SIN...that sin that entered the human race through one man, , , Jesus was the sin offering as the O.T. speaks of the sin offering instead of offering for sins...i.e. the book of Leviticus.
Lev 4:20, Lev 12:6, Lev 14:13

This is repeated in the N.T......Jesus died for SIN...the condition of humans, the sin nature or original sin.

Jesus takes away the sin of the world,
John 1:29

By one man sin entered the world...
Romans 5:12

The wages of sin is death...
Romans 6:23

God made Jesus to be sin for us...
2 Corinthians 5:21

Jesus takes away the SIN of the world.
This represents Unlimited Atonement.....
Atonement is available to all by Christ's blood.

 

[OzSpen]

Between you and me ... Scripture is a fence sitter on that topic as well. It comes down to an inference from a personal view of God.

Limited Atonement: Jesus knew exactly which sins he was dying for and didn’t even bother to waste one drop of blood on most people (wide is the path that leads to destruction), but every drop of blood that Jesus shed fully accomplished its purpose of forgiving a sin and transforming a Saint.

Unlimited Atonement: Jesus shed his blood for all, granting all equal opportunity for access to the Father, but the blood alone saved no one because most for whom Jesus blood was shed will ultimately reach destruction via the wide path ... so salvation requires the Blood of Christ plus SOMETHING else. Since Jesus paid for the sin on the cross and the unrepentant pays for that same sin in Hell, God punishes the same sin twice.

Scripture can support either logical consequence, so which poison do you prefer to swallow?

atp,

I cannot accept this explanation because of this Scripture:

'He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 HCSB).​

Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God (propitiation) for the people to whom John wrote AND for the sins 'of the whole world'.

Oz

 

[atpollard]

Are you recommending one of the 'poisons'?

No. I have my opinions, but it is not a hill worth climbing, let alone dying for.

 

[atpollard]

Scripture is never a fence sitter on anything. God's word is percise and to the point and Jesus died paying the price for the wages of all our sin. There is no such thing as limited atonement as Christ died for all, not just a select few, but it's the whosoever that believe in Christ that will have everlasting life. It's the blood of Jesus that has redeemed us from the curse of the law and washed us clean again by that blood sacrifice He made for everyone, but it's up to everyone to accept Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Evil is an adjective meaning immoral and wicked. It's an action, thought or attitude that is contrary to the character or will of God. Evil is acted upon when we are in disobedience to God's commands like that of Adam and Eve allowing themselves to be deceived and then trying to hide from God. God made atonement for their sin when they realized they were naked and broke fellowship with God as He made the first blood sacrifice and covered their nakedness with coats of skin as the atonement was God covering their sin in His righteousness.

Yet the Shepherd lays down his life to protect his sheep ... not the wild goats that “He never knew”.

There are verses that support both sides. If you can’t find any it is only because of the tint of your glasses that you view scripture through. Read an author that supports Limited Atonement if you need help finding what the other side sees.

(I am carefully avoiding being drawn into any defense of or debate on Calvinism vs Arminianism.)

 

[atpollard]

atp,

I cannot accept this explanation because of this Scripture:

'He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world' (1 John 2:2 HCSB).​

Jesus' death appeased the wrath of God (propitiation) for the people to whom John wrote AND for the sins 'of the whole world'.

Oz

Free Will, Arminians and Wesleyans would all agree with you.
Reformed and Calvinists would disagree.
That the disagreement has gone on for over 400 years with no definitive scriptural resolution suggests that I am not wrong to claim that scripture supports both sides.

 

[OzSpen]

Free Will, Arminians and Wesleyans would all agree with you.
Reformed and Calvinists would disagree.
That the disagreement has gone on for over 400 years with no definitive scriptural resolution suggests that I am not wrong to claim that scripture supports both sides.

How does 1 John 2:2 support both sides?

 

[GodsGrace]

Free Will, Arminians and Wesleyans would all agree with you.
Reformed and Calvinists would disagree.
That the disagreement has gone on for over 400 years with no definitive scriptural resolution suggests that I am not wrong to claim that scripture supports both sides.

What about previous to the 400 years?
Christianity, from the time of Jesus' resurrection, believed that He died for the sins of the world since there was no concept of Unconditional Election UNTIL the reformation.

Also, Romans 5:12 supports unlimited atonement:
By ONE MAN SIN entered into the world, thus SIN SPREAD to ALL MEN, so death reigned through ONE MAN...Romans 5:17 because of his transgression death came to ALL MEN...so, through the act of righteousness of ONE ACT and ONE MAN there resulted justification of life to ALL MEN.

One man caused death to ALL...
One man caused life to ALL...

Not universalism, since the N.T. does state precisely that there are conditions to be met and what they are, which I believe we are all familiar with:

BELIEF
FAITH
OBEDIENCE

 

[GodsGrace]

No. I have my opinions, but it is not a hill worth climbing, let alone dying for.

Except that calvinism (we'll call it that) depends on each step of the TULIP for its beliefs. Topple one and they all fall.

Limited Atonement supports
Unconditional Election

Unconditional Election supports
Irresistible Grace

Irresistible Grace supports
Perseverance of the Saints

and, of course, Unconditional Election is necessary because of
Total Depravity

Thus, each one IS worth the hill climb.

 

[stovebolts]

The evil I'm speaking to comes way before the bible.

Please explain.

Original Sin entered the human race when the fruit was eaten...so there was no O.S. before that. O.S. is what makes us sin....so what made A and E sin?

Original sin is a construct of Augustine born out of debate to which i reject as a doctrine.
But the question remains, one which i have brought up numerous times and it is simply this. Adam and Eve were created with the propensity to sin, and they did.

To treat evil, or sin as an object devoid of human action is to move responsibility for one's action and place blame on some nebulous doctrine. What made Adam and Eve sin? The Bible tells us. Eve was beguiled and Adam willfully disobeyed. All sin is committed in one or both of these ways.

The snake? What was the snake doing in the Garden anyway?
Where did satan's pride begin?

We know what the snake was doing.. It was beguiling Eve. Satan was created as the accuser. That is what he was created for.

How or why we have evil is not.

The following starts at about 7.0

First, i disagree with the video where he says that earthquakes etc are deemed natural evil. Tragedy yes, but not evil. God has set the earth in motion and has set limits to the suffering that can or does occur. To say God causes suffering through a natural disaster is a mischaracterization of our Lord. If one is swallowed up in a natural disaster, it is not God who has taken this life but it is an unbias act of nature through a series of natural events.

Was Adam and Eves disobedience acts of evil? Absolutely not. But sin, when it takes root can turn into acts of evil.

I would maintain that evil is the result of not doing what is right, and we can speak deeply on this.

I hope that you are able to find an answer that satisfies your soul.

 

[jasonc]

Murder was an act of sin ,in would say that act of disobedience is evil . God forbid murder ,yet its disobeyed often .

 

[stovebolts]

Murder was an act of sin ,in would say that act of disobedience is evil . God forbid murder ,yet its disobeyed often .

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

The physical act of murder starts in the heart. This is why God commands us to love our neighbor, by being the good neighbor ourselves. If we are loving our neighbors, there is no room for hate.

When we fail to love, hate fills the void.

 

[jasonc]

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

The physical act of murder starts in the heart. This is why God commands us to love our neighbor, by being the good neighbor ourselves. If we are loving our neighbors, there is no room for hate.

When we fail to love, hate fills the void.

I'm not denying that.but,the heart is full of evil,and who can know its depths?

Our base nature is to do,evil .I have seen it often that even when men do good its for self interests .

 

[stovebolts]

I'm not denying that.but,the heart is full of evil,and who can know its depths?

Our base nature is to do,evil .I have seen it often that even when men do good its for self interests .

If our base nature is evil, why did God call his creation very good.
All through Torah we are taught it's about our choices, and how to navigate those choices when we miss the mark. We can choose to do good and we can choose to do evil.

 

[jasonc]

If our base nature is evil, why did God call his creation very good.
All through Torah we are taught it's about our choices, and how to navigate those choices when we miss the mark. We can choose to do good and we can choose to do evil.

We were changed after the fall.

Do you really,think,we will sin in the age to come?that we will have any desire ,plenty of people .my,youngest sister not able to know good nor evil will not have known the old age at all.