No Pretrib Rapture

[eddif]

Ok I will not pick a person.
Colossians 2:8 kjv
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I can make mistakes.

The Sun is gas and speaks as the - Father. Greater light by day.God turned his back on Jesus at his death (Sun to darkness).

The Moon is solid and reflects the Light of the Sun. Jesus the Moon was turned to blood on the great tribulation of bearing all sins in his body, on the cross. Jesus is the express image as a body.

Sun and moon are not needed in Heaven, for Jesus is the light there. The reality exists in Heaven, and symbolism is not needed. However, some could not tell if they were in the body and used symbolism as they looked into Heaven.

Symbolism is difficult to keep correct.

At the last trump we will be changed to see all this as it is.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

They were quoting Joel who lived centuries before the Messiah and Peter were born on earth. "Shall be" in the future...from Joels' day.

It's both. It's judgment because mankind called our Lord evil, slandered Him. From a worldy view, a sign spoken against.
Then persecuting the church is turning the moon into blood.

If it is "Both" then it is future because the Day of the Lord has not happened as of 06/19/2024
By definition then the pre-judgement alarm to the world of Black sun, all stars falling, blood moon, has not happened in either Joel's day or so far in the year 2024 either.
Act 2:19-20

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God turned his back on Jesus at his death (Sun to darkness).

This is a mistake of mistakes. No where in scripture is this taught.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Ok I will not pick a person.
Colossians 2:8 kjv
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I can make mistakes.

The Sun is gas and speaks as the - Father. Greater light by day.God turned his back on Jesus at his death (Sun to darkness).

The Moon is solid and reflects the Light of the Sun. Jesus the Moon was turned to blood on the great tribulation of bearing all sins in his body, on the cross. Jesus is the express image as a body.

Sun and moon are not needed in Heaven, for Jesus is the light there. The reality exists in Heaven, and symbolism is not needed. However, some could not tell if they were in the body and used symbolism as they looked into Heaven.

Symbolism is difficult to keep correct.

At the last trump we will be changed to see all this as it is.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Jesus says the alarming sight of the sun , moon, stars will be for the people on earth to see,
right before He plants His own feet on the same spot He last touched earth the Mount of Olives .

Act 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mar 13:24-25

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Immediately following He comes to topside earth with even more preliminary Almighty bells & Whistles:

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God never turned His back on His word, except to prevent sinners from perishing. In this world, He kept silent concerning the law as His back was being shredded by a Roman whip. Silence from heaven concerning vile sins against God...or immediate judgment if He opened His mouth.

The heresy is sickening.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If it is "Both" then it is future because the Day of the Lord has not happened as of 06/19/2024
By definition then the pre-judgement alarm to the world of Black sun, all stars falling, blood moon, has not happened in either Joel's day or so far in the year 2024 either.
Act 2:19-20

And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

It begins in Christ.
The great and notable day of the Lord begins with hearing the gospel.
The entire world saw Him.
Believers see Him coming by the Holy Spirit now. Unbelievers see Him on judgment day.

 

[Consecrated Life]

It begins in Christ.
The great and notable day of the Lord begins with hearing the gospel.
The entire world saw Him.
Believers see Him coming by the Holy Spirit now. Unbelievers see Him on judgment day.

The bible describes the Day of the Lord as "terrible " not notable.

Joe 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

[eddif]

Matthew 27:46 kjv
46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

Matthew 27:46 kjv
46. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

"Terrible" as in the terrible Day for the people of the earth.
This is not the meek Jesus and lowly who brings judgement to the earth
It is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Himself who sets His feet on the Mont of Olives and executes judgement in the earth on the terrible Day Of The Lord.

Joe 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Psalm 110:5-6
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

 

[eddif]

Acts 2:20 kjv
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Hebrews 9:26 kjv
26. For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Jesus came first as a servant
The second time to save and Judge.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

In Mt.24:29 the Lord cited Joel. Peter did also in Acts 2:20, but Peter quoted it as happening back then.
The sun (Christ) being turned into darkness, looked at as evil... and the moon (the church, believers) being persecuted.

I see the sun and the moon being literal as in Luke 21:25-28; Daniel 7:13-14 and Rev 1:7, 14:14-20. Jesus made it very clear that Immediately after the tribulation of those days (meaning after everyone that takes the mark of this beast bowing down to him) shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

(Parenthesis added by me)

 

[for_his_glory]

The sun going black is not an alarming in your mind ?
Really ?

None of that which must come first is alarming to me, nor should it be alarming to those who hold the truth and know what is yet to come before Christ appears.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[for_his_glory]

Seems like cant refute the Pretrib rapture now! Bible is superior to opinions!

Why can't the Pretrib Rapture be refuted with scripture as that is what this thread is all about if you read the OP. BTW scripture uses the words caught up and that happens on the last day when Christ returns. John 5:28-29; 6:37-40.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Consecrated Life]

None of that which must come first is alarming to me, nor should it be alarming to those who hold the truth and know what is yet to come before Christ appears.

None of it bothers me either because by virtue of the Sun , moon & stars failing to give light you have a clear signal that everyone will be expecting then the Lord's judgement .
An expectation that according to the Lord Himself cannot exist at the time He raptures the church.
A pre-warning comes first for the Judgement He comes to strike thru the earth.

Mar 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
For the the rapture there is no pre-warning of the sun , moon or stars .
So the rapture has already taken place without warning or expectation
For the rapture his coming is completely without any prophesized celestial event .
Luk 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[KV-44-v1]

that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord

Okay, so there will be two raptures? One pre trib, the other at the 2nd Coming?

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok I will not pick a person.
Colossians 2:8 kjv
8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

I can make mistakes.

The Sun is gas and speaks as the - Father. Greater light by day.God turned his back on Jesus at his death (Sun to darkness).

The Moon is solid and reflects the Light of the Sun. Jesus the Moon was turned to blood on the great tribulation of bearing all sins in his body, on the cross. Jesus is the express image as a body.

Sun and moon are not needed in Heaven, for Jesus is the light there. The reality exists in Heaven, and symbolism is not needed. However, some could not tell if they were in the body and used symbolism as they looked into Heaven.

Symbolism is difficult to keep correct.

At the last trump we will be changed to see all this as it is.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

I believe the sun and the moon in Matthew 24:29-31 are both literal as in the events that follow in vs. 30 and 31. I also believe that the last day means the last day as in God's timing and not ours when Christ returns with final judgement as Satan will then be cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet. The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Then will God make all things new again and ushers down the New Jerusalem as we who are Christ own that have been caught up to Him are the New Jerusalem and He will be our God and we His people.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[for_his_glory]

None of it bothers me either because by virtue of the Sun , moon & stars failing to give light you have a clear signal that everyone will be expecting then the Lord's judgement .
An expectation that according to the Lord Himself cannot exist at the time He raptures the church.
A pre-warning comes first for the Judgement He comes to strike thru the earth.

Mar 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
For the the rapture there is no pre-warning of the sun , moon or stars .
So the rapture has already taken place without warning or expectation
For the rapture his coming is completely without any prophesized celestial event .
Luk 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Then you do not believe what is written in Matthew 24:29-31.

BTW, still waiting for those pretrib rapture scriptures that say Jesus returns twice.

 

[for_his_glory]

Okay, so there will be two raptures? One pre trib, the other at the 2nd Coming?

Nowhere in scripture does it say Jesus returns twice. If there is please present the scriptures. BTW it's called the catching up, or the gathering of the saints of God.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[for_his_glory]

God turned his back on Jesus at his death

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

God never left Jesus as he and the Father are one, John 10:30. In John 16:32 Jesus told his disciples they would leave him alone, but Jesus told them he is not alone for my Father is with me. 2 Corinthians 5:19 God was in Jesus reconciling the world to himself.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Then you do not believe what is written in Matthew 24:29-31.

BTW, still waiting for those pretrib rapture scriptures that say Jesus returns twice.

I Just showed you according to Jesus the Rapture comes VOID of any celestial event or warning, and when no when expects it.
Luk 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Write that down.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Second coming in Judgement immediately follows the Dramatic Celestial spectacles of the Sun, Moon, Stars. which are prophesized to announce His coming.

Mar 13:24-30
...... the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Write that down.

How have the two distinctly different criteria for two separate events confused you in not understanding they are two separate events?