No Pretrib Rapture

[for_his_glory]

You have not answered how two distinctly separate criteria that Jesus prophesized will accompany His coming on two separate occasions , in the Pre-trib Rapture & again in the post-trib Judgement = one event in your mind ?
And with good reason no attempt has been forthcoming to detail how the two sets of dramatically different criteria Jesus details as accompanying each separate event = one event ?
I do understand why no attempt will be made to reconcile the distinctly different criteria given from Jesus Himself for the 2 separate events as being a single event .
A person would be just as capable in explaining how an orange and an orangutan are the same thing.


No change in the sun, the moon, are stars accompanies the rapture according to Jesus
Luk 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
Write that down.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Second coming in Judgement immediately follows the Dramatic Celestial spectacles of the Sun, Moon, Stars. which are prophesized to announce His coming.

Mar 13:24-30
...... the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Write that down.

How have the two distinctly different criteria for two separate events confused you in not understanding they are two separate events?

I don't know how many times I have showed you with scripture that Jesus only returns one time on the last day.
If you want to believe He returns two separate times then you have every right to believe that, but there is no scripture to support this theory.

 

[GodsGrace]

If that were the case the "tribulation" he speaks of, such as the world has never seen, would have happened already?

Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Do you believe the "tribulation" has already happened ?

I'm not sure what the great tribulation is.
I know that it comes just before the end of time when Jesus returns to gather everyone up.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: “Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. . . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it” (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

It seems to me, believing that the above is correct, that the end of the tribulation and the rapture together.
IOW, the end will be after a tribulation....then Jesus will come a second time.

NOT that Jesus will come and take everyone away,,,
then there is a great tribulation,
Then Jesus comes again at the end of time.

I just don't see it in the NT but am not knowledgeable enough to discuss this.
I just don't see where in the NT it states that Jesus is coming back two times.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I don't know how many times I have showed you with scripture that Jesus only returns one time on the last day.
If you want to believe He returns two separate times then you have every right to believe that, but there is no scripture to support this theory.

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
=========================================================
As compared to Jesus detailing the unmistakable signs for the world to see ,literally announcing His coming in the other instance?
Mar 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Not a complicated question, yet one you have explained exactly 0.0 times.
Explain the vast difference in the precluding criteria Jesus specifies in each ?
One having zero precluding criteria in one, and the other having precluding criteria of the sun, the moon , the stars , not to mention the end of the tribulation ?

If you want to back away from answering what you have already demonstrated repeatedly what is an unanswerable perplexing pinch point for you I do understand .

 

[Consecrated Life]

If that were the case the "tribulation" he speaks of, such as the world has never seen, would have happened already?

Mark 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Do you believe the "tribulation" has already happened ?

I'm not sure what the great tribulation is.

Jesus explains what it is and it is not complicated :
Mat 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[for_his_glory]

That may be true, but the luminaries are referred to in scripture as symbols of people.

Im 2Thes, the Messiahs' brightness destroys the "man of sin" but in Rev.19, the beast is thrown into the "lake of fire." <---The appearing of Christ as He truly is will be a fire that engulfs all of of creation.

I understand what you are saying and I agree, except the division between Gods' people and the lost is really happening now,

“For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; Mt.10:35 NKJV

In Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The first thing Jesus said was to not let anyone deceive you. From vs. 5-8 are the beginning of sorrows that even today we are witnessing as in vs. 9-14. Vs 15-28 is yet future in the coming of the son of perdition/lawless one/ false prophet/last antichrist that will force everyone to take the mark of this beast forcing Christ own to denounce Christ and bow down to this beast out of the earth or die a martyr's death by being beheaded, Rev 13; 20:4. After this then Christ returns and by the brightness of His coming and then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 20:4.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not sure what the great tribulation is.
I know that it comes just before the end of time when Jesus returns to gather everyone up.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: “Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. . . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it” (The Word of Truth, 556–7).

It seems to me, believing that the above is correct, that the end of the tribulation and the rapture together.
IOW, the end will be after a tribulation....then Jesus will come a second time.

NOT that Jesus will come and take everyone away,,,
then there is a great tribulation,
Then Jesus comes again at the end of time.

I just don't see it in the NT but am not knowledgeable enough to discuss this.
I just don't see where in the NT it states that Jesus is coming back two times.

What some call the seven year tribulation, which is not found in scripture, will be that of the seven trumpets sounding that leads up to the 3 1/2 year reign of the lawless one, as being a greater tribulation that was never before nor ever will be again, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13; Matthew 24:21.

 

[for_his_glory]

Just want to let all of you know that I will not be online for the next two weeks beginning this evening as we are going camping for two weeks and will have no internet connection. Will catch up when we get back home.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Hope yiu have a wonderful camping trip. God bless.

 

[for_his_glory]

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
=========================================================
As compared to Jesus detailing the unmistakable signs for the world to see ,literally announcing His coming in the other instance?
Mar 13:24-25
But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

Not a complicated question, yet one you have explained exactly 0.0 times.
Explain the vast difference in the precluding criteria Jesus specifies in each ?
One having zero precluding criteria in one, and the other having precluding criteria of the sun, the moon , the stars , not to mention the end of the tribulation ?

If you want to back away from answering what you have already demonstrated repeatedly what is an unanswerable perplexing pinch point for you I do understand .

I have explained all of this over and over again to you, but I can not make you understand it all. This is something that you are going to sort out for your self.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

I have explained all of this over and over again to you, but I can not make you understand it all. This is something that you are going to sort out for your self.

Your attempt to apply multi-layered metaphor to confound, invalidate Jesus's plain spoken command is more desperation than explanation.

 

[for_his_glory]

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.


Your attempt to apply multi-layered metaphor to confound, invalidate Jesus's plain spoken command is more desperation than explanation.

How many instances of the return of Christ do you think there are?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pretty much explains there is only one instance, not multiple instances, of Jesus second coming.

 

[Consecrated Life]

How many instances of the return of Christ do you think there are?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pretty much explains there is only one instance, not multiple instances, of Jesus second coming.

I'm interested in His coming that does not come with the pre-warning of a tribulation.
A pre-warning that lets everyone know to expect the time of His coming is very near.

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm interested in His coming that does not come with the pre-warning of a tribulation.
A pre-warning that lets everyone know to expect the time of His coming is very near.

I am putting these scriptures in red like that of the many things Jesus spoke directly that we find in the red letter edition of the Bible.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

These are the things Jesus himself spoke of forewarning us of what must take place first before He returns. Just like how He answered the three questions the disciples asked Him in Matthew 24:3 "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Many of us are watching and preparing ourselves for His glorious return so we are not taken as a thief in the night not being prepared as the devil can be deceivingly convincing those who have no truth found in them.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I am putting these scriptures in red like that of the many things Jesus spoke directly that we find in the red letter edition of the Bible.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luke 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

These are the things Jesus himself spoke of forewarning us of what must take place first before He returns. Just like how He answered the three questions the disciples asked Him in Matthew 24:3 "when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Many of us are watching and preparing ourselves for His glorious return so we are not taken as a thief in the night not being prepared as the devil can be deceivingly convincing those who have no truth found in them.

So how does all that pre-warning square up with Jesus also saying that He will come at a time that no one thinks He will ?
If there is only one return , there cannot be two different circumstances of the same return.
That is a Yes or a No ?
Why are you unable to explain two completely different circumstances of the same return , one with plenty of warning & everyone expects it , & one when nobody believes it could happen ?
Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[eddif]

I'm interested in His coming that does not come with the pre-warning of a tribulation.
A pre-warning that lets everyone know to expect the time of His coming is very near.

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

First off. I refuse to be in opposition to FHG. Just why I do not totally know.

There are two groups being addressed. The belivers that will rise, and the unbelivers who will rise.


Messages are sent about both groups. IMHO it is difficult to tell who is the subject of a sentence. I feel there is no conflict in scripture, but a failure to see through our glass darkly.
Before the throne of judgement this will be settled. Till that time we read over and over, pray, discuss. Both the sheep and goats are a little confused at first.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

First off. I refuse to be in opposition to FHG. Just why I do not totally know.

There are two groups being addressed. The belivers that will rise, and the unbelivers who will rise.


Messages are sent about both groups. IMHO it is difficult to tell who is the subject of a sentence. I feel there is no conflict in scripture, but a failure to see through our glass darkly.
Before the throne of judgement this will be settled. Till that time we read over and over, pray, discuss. Both the sheep and goats are a little confused at first.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Matthew 25:31 and following verses.
eddif

 

[Consecrated Life]

First off. I refuse to be in opposition to FHG. Just why I do not totally know.

There are two groups being addressed. The belivers that will rise, and the unbelivers who will rise.


Messages are sent about both groups. IMHO it is difficult to tell who is the subject of a sentence. I feel there is no conflict in scripture, but a failure to see through our glass darkly.
Before the throne of judgement this will be settled. Till that time we read over and over, pray, discuss. Both the sheep and goats are a little confused at first.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

There is no conflict in two separate and unique comings of the Lord Jesus & the unique circumstances associated with each.
Notice that in this coming in which people are told to be "ready" there is no mention of anything coming to "pass" in advance of His coming.

Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[7 Thunders]

I'm interested in His coming that does not come with the pre-warning of a tribulation.
A pre-warning that lets everyone know to expect the time of His coming is very near.

Explain the vast discrepancy as detailed by Jesus of no one expecting His coming in one instance ?
Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

Hello, Consecrated Life
I believe Luke 12:40 is saying that most people will be unprepared for Jesus Christ's return. Why?…because they believe Christ, which is really the Antichrist, has already arrived. They have been deceived. The Antichrist comes at the 6th trump. Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Hello, Consecrated Life
I believe Luke 12:40 is saying that most people will be unprepared for Jesus Christ's return. Why?…because they believe Christ, which is really the Antichrist, has already arrived. They have been deceived. The Antichrist comes at the 6th trump. Jesus Christ comes at the 7th trump.

So you believe Luke12:40 is directing the unsaved to be ready ?

Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[7 Thunders]

So you believe Luke12:40 is directing the unsaved to be ready ?

Luke 12:40
Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

No, it’s the saved, I think. Many will be deceived.