Carry_Your_Name
Member
Yes there is, sir. Rev. 11:2-3. “I’ll give power to my two witnesses, and they’ll prophesy 1260 days in sackcloth.”
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
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No Pretrib Rapture
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
Here is what scripture says about us still being here during the time of the son of perdition's reign here on earth.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, which is not found in scripture no matter how they make scripture to line up with this false theory. There is no seven years, but that of only seven trumpets sounding. If you read about the first six trumpets they have a beginning and an end before the next one sounds. The seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no end until that of Christ return on the last day.
Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.
By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.
Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.
Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.
Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.
Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.
Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.
Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.
Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride
Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.
Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.
Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth
Consecrated Life
Member
Yet again another unmistakable sign allowing slacker Christians to pick up the pace in what they have been neglecting.
First off just to let you know I am a woman, not a sir. No big deal.
The two witnesses we read about in Rev 11 will prophesy for 3 1/2 half years, but during the time of the seventh trumpet when the son of perdition takes his seat in Israel.
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.
God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as these witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations.
Zechariah speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk amongst us, John 1:1-5.
John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.
The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament. Jews were only sent to preach to the lost sheep of Israel and Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles, Matthew 10:5-7; Acts 22:21, so will it be during the seventh trumpet sounding.
Maybe you are one of those slacker Christians, (not saying you are), especially if you are ignoring 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 where it says that the mystery of iniquity does already work, meaning works in secrecy for now until he is revealed to everyone.
Beginning with Rev 20:4-6, this all happens during the seventh trumpet as all the events leads up to the last day. John sees thrones and they sat upon them as judgement is only given by God and Christ, Psalms 103:19; Matthew 28:18-20. This could be that the thrones he sees and the ones sitting on them is God and now Jesus sitting upon His throne of glory as all the kingdoms of the world will have become the kingdoms of God and of His Christ at the beginning of the seventh trumpet sounding, Rev 11:15.
This could also be talking about the great white throne judgement as John sees the souls of those who were beheaded that refused to denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast, Rev 13, as they who are now dead will also be raised up on the last day, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29, which would be the day of the great white throne judgement. I believe the first resurrection is that of our Spiritual rebirth as we were then raised with Christ, Colossians 3:1, and physically dead or alive our spirit always reigns with Christ. Rev 20:14 the second death is death and Hades/hell/grave being cast into the lake of fire as there will never be no more death or a need for the grave.
Those who are alive at Christ coming that are His own are kept in the camp which has to be symbolic of the Holy city of Jerusalem as how can every Christian still alive at His coming from every nation fit inside the walls of Jerusalem or even the great valley that runs to Azal, Zechariah 14:4, 5. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 is a cross reference to Rev 20:5 as I believe it is the last day that all, in the grave and those still alive will be caught up with Jesus. This is why there is no pretrib or midtrib rapture. During the timing of the seventh trumpet after the beast out of the sea and out of the earth are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant being all the leaders of every nation that followed after these two beast then this present heaven and earth will be dissolved and a new heaven and earth renewed in order for the New Jerusalem (we who are Christ own) will return to the renewed earth having eternity with Christ, Rev 21:1-3.
This could also be talking about the great white throne judgement as John sees the souls of those who were beheaded that refused to denounce Christ and take the mark of the beast, Rev 13, as they who are now dead will also be raised up on the last day, Daniel 12:1-4; John 6:40; John 5:28, 29, which would be the day of the great white throne judgement. I believe the first resurrection is that of our Spiritual rebirth as we were then raised with Christ, Colossians 3:1, and physically dead or alive our spirit always reigns with Christ. Rev 20:14 the second death is death and Hades/hell/grave being cast into the lake of fire as there will never be no more death or a need for the grave.
Those who are alive at Christ coming that are His own are kept in the camp which has to be symbolic of the Holy city of Jerusalem as how can every Christian still alive at His coming from every nation fit inside the walls of Jerusalem or even the great valley that runs to Azal, Zechariah 14:4, 5. John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:40 is a cross reference to Rev 20:5 as I believe it is the last day that all, in the grave and those still alive will be caught up with Jesus. This is why there is no pretrib or midtrib rapture. During the timing of the seventh trumpet after the beast out of the sea and out of the earth are cast into the lake of fire and the remnant being all the leaders of every nation that followed after these two beast then this present heaven and earth will be dissolved and a new heaven and earth renewed in order for the New Jerusalem (we who are Christ own) will return to the renewed earth having eternity with Christ, Rev 21:1-3.
Consecrated Life
Member
Well if read one of my earlier posts you would have no doubt that yes in the past I have been neglectful of things Christ has said I should be doing , as well as doing things I should not do as a Christian.
But what about my question ?
What about the post-tribulation believing slacker Christians that are convinced that there will be ample time to straighten up and fly right as a Christian when they see the news on every smart phone screen that the worldwide known Mr. Anti-Christ received a deadly wound and is now alive ?
Rev 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Just because they think there is ample time they are fooling themselves as no one knows the day or even the hour of Christ return as even He does not know, but only God knows the time. It will be like in the days of Noah when the flood came and they were not prepared, Matthew 24:36-39. None of us are even guaranteed our next breath.
Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.
Consecrated Life
Member
Why would they need to know anything more than the day the Anti-Christ's deadly wound is healed ?
The slacker Christians can safely just keep procrastinating until that day knowing that Christ will not be showing up until the anti-christ is allowed to then go forward thru his other prophesized remaining actions?????
Post-trib theology is custom made for the procrastinating Christian .
The Jesus I know makes no provision for a select privileged minority of people, to play Christian Catch Up like that .
We will all meet Christ the exact same way, without any specific biblically prophesized end time event provided as a precursor to alarm the slacker crowd into to doing or not doing what they should have been all the while .
Luke 12:45
But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming.......
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If one is truly a Christian by the Spiritual rebirth and indwelled with the Holy Spirit have nothing to procrastinate about as they have already accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior being sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption when Christ returns. Ephesians 4:17-32.
There is no such thing as a slacker Christian as you are either hot or cold like those of the church of Laodicea found in Rev 3:14-16.
Consecrated Life
Member
You don't think that there are Saved & Sealed Christians that have been terribly wronged by a family member or friend
who they have yet to offer forgiveness to ?
To procrastinate in giving forgiveness to someone who has wronged you is a classic example of Christian slackness.
A Post-Trib believing Christian who has procrastinated in forgiving another alrready, would just as easily be inclined to then say to themselves :
" I'll forgive him/her ,but I will not forgive any sooner than I have to, I will wait until anti-christ suffers the deadly head wound and then I will forgive them the next day "
Post-Trib is a theology custom made for the very few privileged individuals who believe they will be alive to take advantage of God's special CCUP Program especially designed just for the privileged few special Christians.
Christian Catch Up Program .
Luke 11:4
And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us...
Hi for_his_glory
Your going to have to connect the dots for me. Exactly how do any of these verses address the 'son of perdition' or his reign upon the earth?
No. The last half of chapter 14 of the Revelation of Jesus clearly says that the believers will be gone when the wrath of God is poured out upon those that are gathered up after Jesus swings his sickle and harvests the earth. If we're seeing God's wrath poured out upon the wicked unbelieving, it will be from heaven.
Yes. I do agree that believers will live through the days that Jesus describes as the days of Great Tribulation.
Well, the day that Scripture describes as the great and terrible day of the Lord is likely after the 1,000 year reign of Jesus. That is when all mankind, even the wicked, will be resurrected to stand in judgment.
As for the rest of your quotes, I don't see how they apply to this matter of pre-trib or mid-trib timing.
God bless,
Ted
God b
If they are not forgiving others than God will not forgive their sin. It is hard to forgive those who have grossly come against us, whether they be a Christian or not, as well I know, but if we do not forgive others God will not forgive our sin.
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. (Continue reading the parable and learn from it).
Forgiveness is not optional if you are a true child of God as it is mandatory to forgive those who sin against us.
Let anger and bitterness go as it has no place within the renewed Spiritual inner man for you are dead and your life is hid with Christ in God, Colossians 3:1-17.
Rev 13 the beast rises up out of the sea as the sea here is symbolic of people and nations as in a sea of humanity, Daniel Chapter 7:1-8; Revelation 17:15. This beast is a Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system. This beast system that Satan works through gives its power to the beast out of the earth as the beast out of the earth appears as the Lamb of God, but is a false Christ being the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 with two horns. The two horns represent the Old Roman Empire that received its deadly wound back in 1798 by General Berthier who made his entrance into Rome and abolished the Roman government and established a secular one. That caused them to scatter into the other ten nations (ten horns). The wound was healed in 1929 by Mussolini.
Carry_Your_Name
Member
No, these 3 1/2 years precedes the seventh trumpet. By the time the seventh trumpet is blown, this period is over, it’s not “during” the seventh trumpet.
“When they FINISH their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war with them, and kill them.” (11:7)
“Now AFTER the three and a half days the breath of life from God entered them …” (11:11)
“THEN the seventh angel sounded, and there were loud voices in heaven …” (11:15)
As you can see, there’s a clear sequence of events, by the time they are preaching, the beast in Rev. 13 is already risen and given power to overcome the saints, so Rev. 13 doesn’t take place during the seventh trumpet. The Beast is most likely released at the 5th trumpet:
“Then the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was give the key to the bottomless pit.” (9:1)
Well it’s surely comforting to know that “misgendering” by using a wrong pronoun is not a felony here, and I won’t be an arrested for that.
These verses show that we are still here and not caught up to Christ before the time of the son of perdition/last antichrist 3 1/2 years reign here on earth that is what we agree on as being the greatest tribulation that ever was, nor ever be again. Here is my explanation of the harvest that comes after everyone has taken the mark of the beast.
Rev 14:14-16
First we need to understand that the one upon the white cloud is not Jesus as the word says like unto the Son of man with emphases on the word like. Scripture shows the Son of man as in parts where the son is capitalized and also used in lower case as son in Ezekiel and Daniel being called sons of man in Ezekiel 2:1-3 and Daniel 8:17. Jesus is called son of man in Luke 3:23, but also called Son of man in Matthew 20:28.
The difference between Son/son being capitalized and lower case is to show the human side of man and also the Spiritual side as in Jesus being made flesh or in other words being born in a human body as in the word made flesh to dwell among us, John 1:14. When the scriptures speak of the Son/son of man it is speaking of the power and authority given to Jesus as a servant to mankind and we the saints of God continuing in being a servant of God to all mankind as we follow in the footsteps of Jesus after He ascended to sit at the right hand of God.
Son/son designates one who assigns themselves to a name or title as to an office, 2 Timothy 1:11; 1 Corinthians 12:4-7, like Jesus who is called the Son of God in all power and authority given to Him by the Father. Those who are in the office of servitude under Gods authority takes on the nature of Jesus through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit becoming a servant of man to minister to mankind and also prepared to give their lives for the sake of others as Jesus laid down His life for all of us, Matthew 20:28.
Luke 3:23 calls Jesus the son of man as being born the son of Joseph as this is how many perceived Jesus to be as only the son of a carpenter, Matthew 13:55; Mark 6:3, who later was called prophet teacher, John 3:2, until they realized Jesus as being the Son of God true Messiah as their Spiritual eyes were opened on the day of Pentecost when they were filled with the Holy Spirit.
The one upon the white cloud is an angel as Jesus stated in Matthew 13:39 that the reapers are angels sent to come at the end of the age. The angel on the white cloud wears a symbolic crown of gold which means Gods’ great authority given to him as he waits for the angel that comes out from Gods presence to declare it is now time to take the sharp sickle in his hand which represents the reaping of the harvest as the timing has now come on earth to separate the wheat from the tares, Matthew 13:24-43.
The wheat is those of good seed who have kept the witness and testimony of Christ and have not taken the mark of the beast. They are gathered of all nations under the safety of the Lord as God prepares to pour out His wrathful vial judgments on the people of earth that have followed after the beast and have taken his mark.
Rev 14:17-20
John sees in his vision another angel coming out of the temple of God in heaven that also has a sharp sickle, but this angel’s purpose is different from the other angel who has gathered Gods people to safety. This angel waits until the angel from the altar that has power over fire to announce it is time to reap into the earth and gather the clusters of the vine for her grapes are fully ripe.
This angel who has power over fire is the angel in Revelation 8:3 that stands before the altar of God that is given much incense to burn as the sweet aroma is sent up to God with the prayers of the martyred saints, meaning those whose breath/spirit has returned back to God who gave it making them a living soul, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7 as these are those under the altar in Revelation 6:9-11 that are waiting for their blood to be avenged.
Gods timing is now made perfect as the prayers of the martyred saints are about to be answered as He tells the angel before the altar to tell the other angel with the sharp sickle to reap into the earth and gather the cluster of the vine and throw them into the great wine press of Gods wrath for her grapes are ripe.
This vine is different from the vine that is Christ in John 15:5 as this vine is the Luciferians New World Order system and the cluster of grapes are those who attach themselves to this system as they take the mark of this beast and bow down to their ordnance's. The wickedness of the multitude is full now as they have rejected God, martyred His saints and still refuse to repent.
The great winepress is symbolic of mans destruction as it can be likened unto grapes trodden down in great fierceness of being pressed down for their juice as the grapes are destroyed. In this case it is the unrighteous that will be trodden down by the fierceness of Gods seven vial chastisements which are different then the six trumpet chastisements that only affected a third of the world.
The seven vial judgments will affect all the unrighteous in every nation around the world, Joel 3:13, 14; Isaiah 63:3 Lamentation 1:15, as these judgments are environmental and physical, which are explained in Rev 16 that will cause many who have not taken the mark of the beast to finally realize what they have been hearing and rejecting that is preached to them from the everlasting Gospel is true as they are physically affected by these vial judgments and will seek out the sovereign and omnipotent God of all creation and repent of their sin against Him.
The description of the wine press being outside the city and the tremendous amount of blood represents a great conquest of God outside of His temple in heaven which means a global conquest over the wickedness on the earth that is found in the heart of man, Isaiah 63:3, 4. The earlier conquest of God during battles where the enemy were always slaughtered as we read in the Old Testament were localized as in certain regions, but this one of the great wine press is a global slaughter of those who oppose God as they are lovers of self wanting nothing to do with the God of righteousness as they are deceived in their own thoughts and actions of those thoughts, 2 Timothy 3:1-9.
I am tired of going through all of your "I am right, you are wrong garbage" especially when I have given you over and over what I believe and sick and tired of you putting others down because they do not agree with you. So for this reason I will have no more correspondence with you in this thread as you continue to break the ToS 1.1 and 1.3
Carry_Your_Name
Member
Fine, good night. But for the record, I’ve never been disrespectful to you, and I’ve never “put you down,” all I did was poking some holes in your theory.
Hey for_his_glory
No, sorry. I don't see it. The dots aren't connecting in my old and slow brain.
God bless,
Ted
Consecrated Life
Member
Exactly, and so they just plan accordingly as post-trib believers they can just put it off until the anti-christ receives his deadly wound and is then healed .
Taking advantage of God's program especially designed just for privileged slacker post-trib christians to fill their lamps with oil right after the alarm has been sounded , just in the nick of time , right before Christ's return.