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No Pretrib Rapture

Hey Consecrated Life

Yeah, I reckon you're right about that. So I'll depart with my understanding of a rapture that comes sometime after the Great Tribulation has come upon the earth and you can continue with your understanding that the rapture will occur before the Great Tribulation spoken of by Jesus. It's ok with me.

It will all be ok.

God bless,
Ted
Great, so what is your biblical basis for Jesus coming to gather His church only after earthly events dictate He can be expected to come ?

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
 
Great, so what is your biblical basis for Jesus coming to gather His church only after earthly events dictate He can be expected to come ?

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Hey Consecrated Life

Oh, it's just a thought I had. Probably silly. I don't want to embarrass myself. Thanks for asking, though.

That passage of Matthew is absolutely true. We know neither the day or the hour that Jesus will return.








But then his disciples asked him for a sign and Jesus answered them. Do you suppose he gave them those 'signs' that they had requested to let them know that the day and the hour were near, but we're not supposed to really see them? Seems rather wasteful of Jesus' words in that regard.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hey Consecrated Life

Oh, it's just a thought I had. Probably silly. I don't want to embarrass myself. Thanks for asking, though.

That passage of Matthew is absolutely true. We know neither the day or the hour that Jesus will return.
Yes, which leads to more interesting question of why it is almost always the case , as seen here, of the post-trib believer pro-actively, and quite desperately , trying dissuade the pre-trib believer from what is as apparent as the noonday sun from Jesus own mouth ?

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
 
Yes, which leads to more interesting question of why it is almost always the case , as seen here, of the post-trib believer pro-actively, and quite desperately , trying dissuade the pre-trib believer from what is as apparent as the noonday sun from Jesus own mouth ?
Hey Consecrated Life

How funny! That's exactly the way your posts have been coming across, that you are attempting to pro-actively, and quite desperately, trying to dissuade the after trib begins believer what is as apparent as the noonday sun from Jesus' own mouth.

Funny how shoes can fit more than one foot at the same time.

Have you ever read the gospel accounts? You know all through Jesus' ministry in Israel, the Pharisees and Sadducees and Scribes knew that they were right, too.

God bless,
Ted
 
Hey Consecrated Life

How funny! That's exactly the way your posts have been coming across, that you are attempting to pro-actively, and quite desperately, trying to dissuade the after trib begins believer what is as apparent as the noonday sun from Jesus' own mouth.
Jesus needs no help from me in making it clear His coming is dependent on nothing else happening

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
 
Hi for_his_glory

Maybe I haven't been clear on my position. I agree with your claim here that the believers will endure, at least part of the days, referred to as the Great Tribulation. I just don't find the connection that you're making with many of these verses that you populate in your thread, that they have anything to do with the matter.

But I think I've been clear in at least a couple of my responses on this thread that I am a post or mid trib believer.

God bless,
Ted
When scripture reads that Jesus will return on the last day then I see that as being the last day, no more days after the son of perdition is revealed and destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming. I really can not make anyone see or understand this as it can only be revealed to us through the Holy Spirit.

Here are some more verses that speak about Jesus coming on the last day after the tribulation of those days that are yet future.
Matthew 24:29-31, 36; Luke 21:34-36; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40, 44; John 12:48; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Rev 19-20.
 
When scripture reads that Jesus will return on the last day then I see that as being the last day, no more days after the son of perdition is revealed and destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming. I really can not make anyone see or understand this as it can only be revealed to us through the Holy Spirit.

Here are some more verses that speak about Jesus coming on the last day after the tribulation of those days that are yet future.
Matthew 24:29-31, 36; Luke 21:34-36; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40, 44; John 12:48; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Rev 19-20.
Hi @for_his_glory

I guess I missed it. What verse says that he returns on 'the last day' ?

God bless
Ted
 
You have no appreciation of the power of God's ability to prophesize the future & the days we are living in .
Seriously!!! Don't you think God already knows the beginning and the end as being Alpha and Omega and when He will send Christ Jesus on the last day, but none of us knows the day or the other, not even Jesus.
 
Hi @for_his_glory

I guess I missed it. What verse says that he returns on 'the last day' ?

God bless
Ted
All of them as it either literally says last day or alludes to the last day as in the last trump after those who have sealed their fate of damnation by taking the mark of this beast out of the earth, Rev 13.

I really have nothing more to give to explain it all to you. All I can say is take all the scriptures I have given you praying first and asking the Holy Spirit teach you.
 
Rev 13:3
"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."
If you knew anything about the history of the four Empires that Daniel described in Daniel 7-9 then you might understand that of the deadly wound that was put upon the Roman Empire and how it was healed, buy I will not explain it here as that needs to be another topic.

 
Seriously!!! Don't you think God already knows the beginning and the end as being Alpha and Omega and when He will send Christ Jesus on the last day, but none of us knows the day or the other, not even Jesus.
But some of us think they know the world events that must happen first, prior to Jesus coming .
Until those events happen first Jesus is at the back of the line they will claim with certainty.
So they do claim to KNOW today ,on 06/19/2024 that Jesus will not come tonight or tomorrow or the next day, or the next day , or the day after that etc.etc.etc.....
Others know that nothing needs to happen prior to His coming and He could come tonight .

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
 
If you knew anything about the history of the four Empires that Daniel described in Daniel 7-9 then you might understand that of the deadly wound that was put upon the Roman Empire and how it was healed, buy I will not explain it here as that needs to be another topic.

You don't believe Satan will perform an imitation resurrection with his man ?
 
When scripture reads that Jesus will return on the last day then I see that as being the last day, no more days after the son of perdition is revealed and destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming. I really can not make anyone see or understand this as it can only be revealed to us through the Holy Spirit.

Here are some more verses that speak about Jesus coming on the last day after the tribulation of those days that are yet future.
Matthew 24:29-31, 36; Luke 21:34-36; John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40, 44; John 12:48; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Rev 19-20.
Thanks for the list of scriptures.
Don ‘t panic.
The Last Day:
In the garden
The last day of only evil continually
The last day of ceremonial Law
The last Day of Satan’s access to Heaven
The last day of time

The first day of eternity future


Is this all of everything? No.


Just a moment of redneck insight
eddif
 
You don't believe Satan will perform an imitation resurrection with his man ?
If you knew anything about the history of the four Empires that Daniel described in Daniel 7-9 then you might understand that of the deadly wound that was put upon the Roman Empire and how it was healed, buy I will not explain it here as that needs to be another topic.



Satan's greatest desire has always been & still is to be worshipped just as Christ is.
All our worship being dedicated to the Life giving death, burial, & resurrection of Jesus .
Satan has been given his instructions and will be performing his own resurrection from the dead of his own personal "anti-christ" to have the world worship him.
Satan is not going to share his one chance at being worshipped by the entire world with the " roman empire " or any other empire or person .


Rev 13:12
And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
 
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I agree with the OP no pretrib rapture.
2 thess 2; Rev 13
No gathering before the lawless one reveals himself to the world sitting in the temple declaring himself God. That lawless one is successful in his war with the saints until his 42months of reign decreed by God is completed and is destroyed not by man but by a coming of the Lord. 2 thess 2; Rev 16:15; Zach 14
 
This may be a trip.
Genesis day one through 3 are not defined by hours.

On day 4 solar moon time started. Day 5 and after are 24 hour days.

Time ends with the destruction of the universe? ( the fire burning up everything).

IMHO the last day has no hours. This day may not operate on our concept of time. (Time will be no more). Without time we can not define the hours. Nor seasons or years.

I will stop here. I may have missed something. I am open for correction from scripture.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
The Tribulation beginning however is not a sign, it is an event , that is why I specifically said there can be no beginning of the Tribulation prior to the Lord gathering His elect .
Everyone would know at that point He was coming.
I would state the great tribulation is in the days of the reign of the beast. The beast and his armies will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on earth. So much so unless those days were cut short by God no one would survive.
I would state a sign that can't be mistaken for that beginning is REV 11. 1260 days as I read and the beast is in Jerusalem as he is allowed to overpower and kill Gods appointed witnesses when no one else could and God takes them alive up to heaven as the "whole world" looks on. A testimony for all peoples. The world will say "who can make war with the beast" as he did what no one else could. Overpowered Gods two witnesses. This adds to the lie and deception of the beasts false witness as judgment from God enters the world. If anyone in the world at that time really has any faith to believe they will believe through those signs given. A final last warning. As a just God warns and warns upfront. Then the powerful delusion given through the beast enters the whole world to deceive those who love to do evil and refuse to believe and repent so that they will be condemned. Many who hold firmly to the testimony of Jesus will be put to the sword as we read of those raised to life in the 1st resurrection.
Now it's clear about what was understood and taught about the resurrection of the righteous on the last day. That God will sift from the ends of the heavens and earth even catching up those who belong to God and are still alive on earth on that last day gathering. The resurrection and gathering of us all and all are clothed with immortality on that last day. Therefore those not raised in the 1st resurrection must be those who suffer.
 
Please , everyone in this thread don't make it personal . You could be thread banned 👀 .
1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.
 
HI eddif
Time ends with the destruction of the universe?
How do you know that?

I believe that if any object moves, then there is time. From the point at which the object began to move, to the point that the object stops moving... time passes. We know this because there is a starting point and a stopping point and they don't happen at the same time. So the span of waiting for the object to complete some move is a span of time.

Now, I do agree that the Scriptures tell us that the earth will be destroyed by fire and that the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll. I do further believe that God will stand before those His Son has saved and declare, "Behold, I make everything new!" That God will make a new heavens and a new earth and likely much, much faster than He made the old - which took all of six long days. Then everyone will know that God made this realm in just the 'time' it takes for the earth to move around six rotations of its axis.

But then we will go to live in this new realm of God's creating and, as far as I know, we will still move around and praise and worship God. How can there not be any time if that's going on? Now, we may not account for the passing of time in the same divisions that we do today. How time is accounted could be wildly different. Today;, we divide the passage of time with the movement of the sun with some small input from the moon. The Revelation tells us that in the new realm there will be no need for the sun as God/Jesus will be our light. So, if there is no night and day cycle; no solar center for the planet to go around, how would we account for time? It's an interesting question and one I look forward to seeing worked out.

God bless,
Ted
 
I would state the great tribulation is in the days of the reign of the beast. The beast and his armies will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on earth. So much so unless those days were cut short by God no one would survive.
I would state a sign that can't be mistaken for that beginning is REV 11. 1260 days as I read and the beast is in Jerusalem as he is allowed to overpower and kill Gods appointed witnesses when no one else could and God takes them alive up to heaven as the "whole world" looks on. A testimony for all peoples. The world will say "who can make war with the beast" as he did what no one else could. Overpowered Gods two witnesses. This adds to the lie and deception of the beasts false witness as judgment from God enters the world. If anyone in the world at that time really has any faith to believe they will believe through those signs given. A final last warning. As a just God warns and warns upfront. Then the powerful delusion given through the beast enters the whole world to deceive those who love to do evil and refuse to believe and repent so that they will be condemned. Many who hold firmly to the testimony of Jesus will be put to the sword as we read of those raised to life in the 1st resurrection.
Now it's clear about what was understood and taught about the resurrection of the righteous on the last day. That God will sift from the ends of the heavens and earth even catching up those who belong to God and are still alive on earth on that last day gathering. The resurrection and gathering of us all and all are clothed with immortality on that last day. Therefore those not raised in the 1st resurrection must be those who suffer.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

2 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: 5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

When I read all the scriptures of Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and these scriptures that speak about the judgement of Christ, the Great White throne judgement where God is sitting on the throne and the books that are opened, Matthew 25:31-34; John 5:27-29; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Rev 11:18; Rev 20:4-6; Rev 20:11, 12, this makes me believe that at the Great White Throne judgement God will be sitting on His throne and Jesus is there seated at Gods right hand now on His throne of glory. All (saints and sinners) have been called from their graves (one resurrection) and the sheep are then separated from the goats as the sheep, being those of God and His Son will stand before the judgement seat of Christ as they have been given their new glorified bodies and their names found in the book of life. They will then be judged for their good works they did as being the continued works of the Lord being in Gods will and receive their crown rewards and their inheritance of the Kingdom of God. The goats being those who are not Gods will be judged out of the other books and their judgement is that of rejecting God and His Son and their punishment is being cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture never speaks of two resurrections, but only one resurrection, John 5:28, 29 and a second death being that of death and hell being cast into the lake of fire, Rev 20:14, 15. There are two separate judgements, but only one resurrection as all will occur at the same time at the Great White Throne Judgement then will God renew the heaven and earth and usher down the New Jerusalem.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.
 
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