No Pretrib Rapture

[miamited]

HI for_his_glory

Can you name the two Scripture verses that tell us that God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Consecrated Life]

I agree with the OP no pretrib rapture.
2 thess 2; Rev 13
No gathering before the lawless one reveals himself to the world sitting in the temple declaring himself God. That lawless one is successful in his war with the saints until his 42months of reign decreed by God is completed and is destroyed not by man but by a coming of the Lord. 2 thess 2; Rev 16:15; Zach 14

Then no one will be expecting this Jesus doing any gathering until the lawless one reveals himself .
However Jesus has said He will come when we don't expect Him to be coming.
Both can't be true

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

 

[for_his_glory]

This may be a trip.
Genesis day one through 3 are not defined by hours.

On day 4 solar moon time started. Day 5 and after are 24 hour days.

Time ends with the destruction of the universe? ( the fire burning up everything).

IMHO the last day has no hours. This day may not operate on our concept of time. (Time will be no more). Without time we can not define the hours. Nor seasons or years.

I will stop here. I may have missed something. I am open for correction from scripture.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Time within the hands of God is His timing like with the creation of the earth as on the seventh day God rested as He was done with all His work. It will be the same with the seven trumpets sounding as the first six has a beginning and an ending, but the seventh only has a beginning and no ending as all things will be eternal on the last day when Christ returns as judgement is made at that time as when Christ returns all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28-29; John 6:40.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I'm going to throw this out there as this thought just came to me about God's timing after reading Genesis 1-2, the seven trumpets and the number 7, which means perfection or completeness. Now, we know everything is in God's timing, which is different then ours from beginning to end and the first six days of creation was from evening to morning that it took God to create the heavens and the earth as being consecutive, one day after another in order of His creating the heavens and the earth. I think we can all agree with that. On the seventh day everything was finished and God rested that day, but the seventh day had no ending as time continued, but, only God rested and sanctified or made holy that seventh day as all was holy until sin entered into that of God's perfection. I think it will be like that of the first six trumpets being consecutive in their beginnings and endings. But, again we see the seventh trumpet sounding, but no ending like the first six trumpets for the seventh trumpet will usher in our day of eternal rest after all those who took the mark of this beast and those who will die a martyr's death as they would not denounce Christ and bow down to this beast out of the earth. Then will Christ return on the last day as He will destroy the beast out of the earth being the false prophet/son of perdition/last antichrist as He destroys this beast and its false prophet by the brightness of His coming casting the beast and false prophet into the lake of fire, 2Thessalonians 2:1-12; Rev 13; 19:11-21.

Now here is the thought that came to me concerning the number seven, which in scripture means perfection or completeness.

The heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work after creating everything and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Genesis 2:1-3. Notice that it says in Genesis 1:1-31 were the first six days being from evening to morning, no mention of a 24 hour period like we have from morning to the next morning, it only says just evening to morning. (I'm not going to get into a 24 hour debate it has no relevance in what I am presenting.) Just concentrating on the number seven. The first six days had a beginning and ending, except the seventh day as God only rested from all that He created and never mentioned an evening to morning, but yet time continued.

When I read Rev 8-11 the first six trumpets have a beginning an ending like that of the days of creation, but no length of time between each one sounding as all is in God's timing being very consecutive one right after the other. The seventh trumpet is different because it has a beginning, but no end like that of the seventh day God rested in Genesis. Rev 13 we read about the beast out of the sea and out of the earth as the one out of the earth is a false prophet/ son of perdition/last antichrist that will cause everyone to take the mark of this beast or be killed. This period of the beast out of the earth will be for 3 1/2 years being a very specific time after the seventh trumpet is sounded. The seventh trumpet has no ending as we read Rev 11-19 when Christ returns with His army of angels and destroys the beast and its false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire and then destroys all the world leaders that followed after this Luciferian system comprised of economic, political, militant, environmental and a false religious system then will all who are Christ own, alive or in their graves will be gathered together and be caught up to Him in the air and with no still no ending of time we will then have eternal life with the Father.

 

[for_his_glory]

HI for_his_glory

Can you name the two Scripture verses that tell us that God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth?

God bless,
Ted

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[KV-44-v1]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God (New Jerusalem). There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation, but only 3 1/2 years during the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chapter 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in a greater faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God as we are also His disciples.

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal.

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ.

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound.

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world as a one world government. 666 represents the number of the beast and the mark is the action of the hands and thoughts of the mind as many will be deceived and accept this mark.

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until the end being the last day when Christ returns.

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

?
Some people will repent and be Born Again after the pretrib Rapture, if there is one. God is merciful.
Nowhere does it say you can't be Born Again after the Rapture im sure.

I don't see how any verse contradicts it.

-----Side Note -
I notice people who have issue with rapture or preTrib rapture keep saying "secret secret" but I know of no one who thinks the Rapture, whatever time it may be, is "secret".

 

[eddif]

HI eddif

How do you know that?

I believe that if any object moves, then there is time. From the point at which the object began to move, to the point that the object stops moving... time passes. We know this because there is a starting point and a stopping point and they don't happen at the same time. So the span of waiting for the object to complete some move is a span of time.

Now, I do agree that the Scriptures tell us that the earth will be destroyed by fire and that the heavens will be rolled up like a scroll. I do further believe that God will stand before those His Son has saved and declare, "Behold, I make everything new!" That God will make a new heavens and a new earth and likely much, much faster than He made the old - which took all of six long days. Then everyone will know that God made this realm in just the 'time' it takes for the earth to move around six rotations of its axis.

But then we will go to live in this new realm of God's creating and, as far as I know, we will still move around and praise and worship God. How can there not be any time if that's going on? Now, we may not account for the passing of time in the same divisions that we do today. How time is accounted could be wildly different. Today;, we divide the passage of time with the movement of the sun with some small input from the moon. The Revelation tells us that in the new realm there will be no need for the sun as God/Jesus will be our light. So, if there is no night and day cycle; no solar center for the planet to go around, how would we account for time? It's an interesting question and one I look forward to seeing worked out.

God bless,
Ted

Sounds like we are close to each other. Exactly the same? Probably not. If Peter thought Paul had things that were hard to understand; then so we still struggle.

Day 4 of creation IMHO describes creating a clock. A big clock. We might call it a clock movement. When the stars fall from heaven ( your - (roll up like a scroll), Time stops. God in eternity seems to move / be active. Movement in eternity is timeless?

Our time was the solar / moon / stars clock.
Are the stars for years? His story is written in the stars.

We might want another thread for the time issue,

No Pretrib Rapture​

Taking out people before the destruction is THE great rapture to have The great Resurrection. The mini resurrection of saints at the death of Jesus was small.


I will probably be in trouble. My low vision is hopefully close.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

Then no one will be expecting this Jesus doing any gathering until the lawless one reveals himself .
However Jesus has said He will come when we don't expect Him to be coming.
Both can't be true

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Yes He did like a thief in the night. Those that have been deceived by the beast and worship the beast will be shocked and surprised by His sudden appearance. Those who are wise and know their God will understand what is taking place in those days.

The bowl judgments are the judgments that plunge the beast's kingdom into darkness. That reign comes to a sudden end at the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
REV 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

 

[Consecrated Life]

Yes He did like a thief in the night. Those that have been deceived by the beast and worship the beast will be shocked and surprised by His sudden appearance. Those who are wise and know their God will understand what is taking place in those days.

REV 16:15
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

That Lord's admonition that He comes when we expect Him not to is directed to believers .
This warning is only for those who believe in Him.
Why would He issue a warning to those who believe He is a fairy tale , & have never read His Word ?
The ungodly have no interest or thought in wondering or expecting when Christ will gather His own.

If believers do not expect Him to come until after the lawless one reveals himself , then according to Jesus own admonition to us that he will come when we least expect Him to , he will come before then .
Jesus's admonition leaves no wiggle room to think , this or that event must happen before He comes .
It could be today or tomorrow .

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

 

[Consecrated Life]

?
Some people will repent and be Born Again after the pretrib Rapture, if there is one. God is merciful.
Nowhere does it say you can't be Born Again after the Rapture im sure.

I don't see how any verse contradicts it.

-----Side Note -
I notice people who have issue with rapture or preTrib rapture keep saying "secret secret" but I know of no one who thinks the Rapture, whatever time it may be, is "secret".

You are exactly right .
The tribulation is a repeat realization of Jesus Christ presenting Himself to the Jews, only not as a baby this time.
And just as first time he came first to the Jews and then there were Gentiles that joined in , this same scenario will take place during the tribulation.
With all the same dynamics , including martyrdom .
Remember the first Christians, including the apostles were martyred in great numbers for their faith .
It is going to be the same during the tribulation, for both converted Jew & Gentile .


Rom 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

 

[Randy]

That Lord's admonition that He comes when we expect Him not to is directed to believers .
This warning is only for those who believe in Him.
Why would He issue a warning to those who believe He is a fairy tale , & have never read His Word ?
The ungodly have no interest or thought in wondering or expecting when Christ will gather His own.

If believers do not expect Him to come until after the lawless one reveals himself , then according to Jesus own admonition to us that he will come when we least expect Him to , he will come before then .
Jesus's admonition leaves no wiggle room to think , this or that event must happen before He comes .
It could be today or tomorrow .

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

He spoke to signs given to all but only those who believe will understand what's taking place.
It cannot be tomorrow and I state to you REV 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days as I read.

Regardless He stated, He will come like a thief in the night.
Which the timing is given in these days. The last of the last of Gods judgments.
REV 16:15

 

[miamited]

Hi for_his_glory

2Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Sorry, but that's only telling us that this earth is to be destroyed. It doesn't address the issue of a new heavens and a new earth, which was what the question asked.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Consecrated Life]

He spoke to signs given to all but only those who believe will understand what's taking place.
It cannot be tomorrow and I state to you REV 11 is a sign that can't be mistaken. 1260 days as I read.

You are free to look for a required event to happen preceding His coming .
I choose to follow His Word.

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

Sorry, but that's only telling us that this earth is to be destroyed. It doesn't address the issue of a new heavens and a new earth, which was what the question asked.

God bless,
Ted

And I answered your question by giving you 2Peter 3:10 where the present heaven and earth will be destroyed and in Rev 21:1-2. God will make renewed again the heavens and earth first before He ushers down the New Jerusalem. If this is not what you asked maybe I misunderstood what you were asking.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then no one will be expecting this Jesus doing any gathering until the lawless one reveals himself .
However Jesus has said He will come when we don't expect Him to be coming.
Both can't be true

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

Think about what would be the need of the seven trumpets sounding and the son of perdition that will deceive the very elect of God if possible tricking many to take the mark of this beast if we are taken out of here before all of this begins. Christ only comes back one time to gather all who are His own.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

 

[for_his_glory]

?
Some people will repent and be Born Again after the pretrib Rapture, if there is one. God is merciful.
Nowhere does it say you can't be Born Again after the Rapture im sure.

I don't see how any verse contradicts it.

-----Side Note -
I notice people who have issue with rapture or preTrib rapture keep saying "secret secret" but I know of no one who thinks the Rapture, whatever time it may be, is "secret".

Please show me with scripture where it teaches a pretrib Rapture as in forty years of studying scripture I have never found any. I use to believe all those teachings about pretrib, but I was still young in the word and just accepted that which was taught.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Think about what would be the need of the seven trumpets sounding and the son of perdition that will deceive the very elect of God if possible tricking many to take the mark of this beast if we are taken out of here before all of this begins. Christ only comes back one time to gather all who are His own.

How would people not be expecting Him with great anticipation at that point ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Please show me with scripture where it teaches a pretrib Rapture as in forty years of studying scripture I have never found any. I use to believe all those teachings about pretrib, but I was still young in the word and just accepted that which was taught.

Paul taught it could happen at any moment &was confident that the Lord coming for His own could just as well happen the day he spoke the following:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul is speaking of himself being eligible to be caught up with all others on the day he said this .
He does not say " Then those which will be alive and remain.." speaking of the future.
Paul instead speaks in present tense when he says , WE WHICH ARE ALIVE. leaving no doubt he believed that the catching up could happen the day he talked about it .

 

[for_his_glory]

?
Some people will repent and be Born Again after the pretrib Rapture, if there is one. God is merciful.
Nowhere does it say you can't be Born Again after the Rapture im sure.

I don't see how any verse contradicts it.

-----Side Note -
I notice people who have issue with rapture or preTrib rapture keep saying "secret secret" but I know of no one who thinks the Rapture, whatever time it may be, is "secret".

I forgot to add this. Jesus only returns one time on the last day as then He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all those who are in their graves that are His own as we who are still alive at His coming will then the door of salvation through Christ will be closed. No second chances as no one can be saved after that moment. Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 13:13-18.

 

[for_his_glory]

How would people not be expecting Him with great anticipation at that point ?

We are always looking for the great anticipation of Christ return and He has already given us the signs to watch for His return so He does not come to us a a thief in the night as we have made ourselves ready, but yet no one knows the day or the hour of His return as only God knows.

 

[miamited]

Hi @


The question was this:

Can you name the two Scripture verses that tell us that God is going to make a new heaven and a new earth?

Your reference in Peter's account doesn't mention it. It only tells us that the earth will be destroyed and that wasn't what I was asking.

God bless,
Ted