No Pretrib Rapture

[for_his_glory]

Paul is speaking of himself being eligible to be caught up with all others on the day he said this .
He does not say " Then those which will be alive and remain.." speaking of the future.
Paul instead speaks in present tense when he says , WE WHICH ARE ALIVE. leaving no doubt he believed that the catching up could happen the day he talked about it .

Well, the catching up has not happened yet, so this would make Paul a liar by how you understand what he said, or that you might not understand the full context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as "we" means those who are still alive at His coming.

In Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus three questions, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus told them of all things which must come first before His return as we read from vs 4-28. The greatest sign of His one and only return is found in Matthew 24:29-31, but yet no man will know the day or the hour as even Christ does not know, but the Father only, but gave us a clue that that day will be like the days of Noah for when the flood came those without faith in God were swept away in the flood only saving Noah and his family, Matthew 24:36-39.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi @


The question was this:

Your reference in Peter's account doesn't mention it. It only tells us that the earth will be destroyed and that wasn't what I was asking.

God bless,
Ted

OK, then leave out 2Peter 3:10 and read Rev 21:1-2 as it is clear that it says a New Heaven and a New Earth. Isaiah 65:17-25 also mentions the New Heaven and New Earth and describes what we will be doing there for all eternity.

 

[miamited]

OK, then leave out 2Peter 3:10 and read Rev 21:1-2 as it is clear that it says a New Heaven and a New Earth. Isaiah 65:17-25 also mentions the New Heaven and New Earth and describes what we will be doing there for all eternity.

Hi for_his_glory

But how do you know that? I mean, you just contended that the 1000 year millennial reign was not a literal 1000 year period, but merely a symbolism of some kind. Your reason for thinking that was that it was only mentioned once in the Scriptures. So, I think it a fair question that if something only mentioned once 'must' be symbolic, then wouldn't that same 'truth' apply to this part of God's word? God's word only says once that He is going to make a new heaven and a new earth. What kind of symbolism do you believe God is giving us here? Since He's not really going to make a new heaven and new earth according to your methodology. Can you expound on what that symbolism is and while you're at it, could you expound on what the symbolism of the 1000-year reign is, since it doesn't mean that there will literally be a 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth.

I'm just asking.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

You are exactly right .
The tribulation is a repeat realization of Jesus Christ presenting Himself to the Jews, only not as a baby this time.
And just as first time he came first to the Jews and then there were Gentiles that joined in , this same scenario will take place during the tribulation.
With all the same dynamics , including martyrdom .
Remember the first Christians, including the apostles were martyred in great numbers for their faith .
It is going to be the same during the tribulation, for both converted Jew & Gentile .


Rom 1:16
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

You are very confusing by some of the things you say. Do you believe in pretrib, mid or post?

 

[miamited]

You are very confusing by some of the things you say. Do you believe in pretrib, mid or post?

Oh, are we done now with the 1000 years and the new heavens and the new earth?

I believe that the taking of those who belong to Jesus will happen sometime after the Great Tribulation comes upon the earth.

I also believe that there will be a 1000 year reign of Jesus, with those who are his right here upon this earth before the day of God's final judgment.

God bless,
Ted

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi for_his_glory

But how do you know that? I mean, you just contended that the 1000 year millennial reign was not a literal 1000 year period, but merely a symbolism of some kind. Your reason for thinking that was that it was only mentioned once in the Scriptures. So, I think it a fair question that if something only mentioned once 'must' be symbolic, then wouldn't that same 'truth' apply to this part of God's word? God's word only says once that He is going to make a new heaven and a new earth. What kind of symbolism do you believe God is giving us here? Since He's not really going to make a new heaven and new earth according to your methodology. Can you expound on what that symbolism is and while you're at it, could you expound on what the symbolism of the 1000-year reign is, since it doesn't mean that there will literally be a 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth.

I'm just asking.

God bless,
Ted

New Heaven and New Earth is not symbolic, but literal as all things on earth will be pretty much destroyed by that of the first six trumpets that bring much devastation to the earth. When reading about the events of the first six trumpets God will be destroying much of the vegetation, food supply and fresh drinking water.

As far as a literal 1000 years what would be the purpose for another 1000 years after we are caught up to Christ for us to have to wait a literal 1000 years until Satan is released from the pit to come forth deceiving the nations for the last time as he sends out his army to battle against Jesus surrounding the camp of the saints, but God sends fire down to destroy his army and then Satan will be cast into the lake of fire. Since we are already caught up in the air what will be doing during the 1000 years before Satan is released. Rev 20:7-10.

A 1000 years in Rev 20 is not literal years, but only symbolic of a certain period of time as nowhere else in scripture other than Rev 20 does it mention a literal 1000 year reign of Christ here on earth, but symbolic as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

 

[for_his_glory]

Oh, are we done now with the 1000 years and the new heavens and the new earth?

I believe that the taking of those who belong to Jesus will happen sometime after the Great Tribulation comes upon the earth.

I also believe that there will be a 1000 year reign of Jesus, with those who are his right here upon this earth before the day of God's final judgment.

God bless,
Ted

I was asking Consecrated Life that question.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I think "coming with the clouds" is just another way of saying He comes back to us by the Holy Spirit. After that all the scriptures fall into place.

 

[eddif]

Hi for_his_glory

But how do you know that? I mean, you just contended that the 1000 year millennial reign was not a literal 1000 year period, but merely a symbolism of some kind. Your reason for thinking that was that it was only mentioned once in the Scriptures. So, I think it a fair question that if something only mentioned once 'must' be symbolic, then wouldn't that same 'truth' apply to this part of God's word? God's word only says once that He is going to make a new heaven and a new earth. What kind of symbolism do you believe God is giving us here? Since He's not really going to make a new heaven and new earth according to your methodology. Can you expound on what that symbolism is and while you're at it, could you expound on what the symbolism of the 1000-year reign is, since it doesn't mean that there will literally be a 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth.

I'm just asking.

God bless,
Ted

Symbolism will take you to places you have not been. Those taking these journeys really appreciate the questioning that happens. We question ourselves.’

I think
I see a thousand year day. Can I explain it? No. Do I believe it exists? Yes. Is the experience terrible? Yes. Do i
Want to debate it? No.

It says the Day of the Lotd. Sounds like a lot to do on one day. So I beat myself up as I struggle with it.

A day is as a thousand years.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[miamited]

New Heaven and New Earth is not symbolic, but literal

As far as a literal 1000 years what would be the purpose for another 1000 years after we are caught up to Christ

Hi for_his_glory

So, your understanding is that because you don't understand why God would do something that His testimony clearly says that He will do, it just can't be. Ok, I get it. God's testimony to us clearly says that after the 1000 years, Satan will be released to once again deceive the nations. Is that going to happen? Will Satan be released to deceive the nations? Will Satan be cast into the pit for the 1000 year reign as God's testimony also claims?

God bless,
Ted

I was asking Consecrated Life that question.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you weren't posting to me.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Consecrated Life]

We are always looking for the great anticipation of Christ return and He has already given us the signs to watch for His return so He does not come to us a a thief in the night as we have made ourselves ready, but yet no one knows the day or the hour of His return as only God knows.

You just got done naming an event, not a sign , as a prerequisite to Christ's coming.
By definition the prerequisite event means that nobody is looking for his coming until that event first happens .

Think about what would be the need of the seven trumpets sounding and the son of perdition that will deceive the very elect of God if possible tricking many to take the mark of this beast if we are taken out of here before all of this begins. Christ only comes back one time to gather all who are His own.

 

[eddif]

Y’all are stressing a redneck.

Physical list?:
Seed
Ground
Thief at night
Food and drink

Spiritual list?:
Life from the Word of God
The rapture
Men’s hearts
Word of God

Match both lists. Are these perfect? No. If I do not start this, I will not get more.

The sacrifice lamb in the law of Moses is Jesus. Two physicals that point to forgiveness of sins. One forgiveness is for one year. The other is for eternity.

Joseph of Egypt had a multi colored special coat.
Jesus had a special seamless garment.

Both Joseph and Jesus lost their garments.
Joseph saved people from starvation. Jesus saved people from spiritual death. A comparison can exist.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

I think "coming with the clouds" is just another way of saying He comes back to us by the Holy Spirit. After that all the scriptures fall into place.

Just a few scriptures that mention Jesus being taken up and then coming back with the clouds. I read that clouds here is connected with the divine presence and the glory of God. It really does nor carry any significance to His ascending up or coming back.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

[for_his_glory]

So, your understanding is that because you don't understand why God would do something that His testimony clearly says that He will do, it just can't be. Ok, I get it. God's testimony to us clearly says that after the 1000 years, Satan will be released to once again deceive the nations. Is that going to happen? Will Satan be released to deceive the nations? Will Satan be cast into the pit for the 1000 year reign as God's testimony also claims?

Everything will happen just as it is written, but I only see 1000 years to be only symbolic.

Revelation 20:1-8 is the only passage in the entire scriptures that the premillennialists have as the basis for the 1000 year reign. Rev 20:4 doesn't speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ it says by the vision John received "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years, but those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ a 1000 years as 1000 being a figurative number, not a literal number as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2 Peter 3:8.

Those who reign with Christ are those souls that had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus. In Revelations 6:9-11, are the souls of martyrs who had been slain for the word of God under an altar crying for vengeance. In Rev 20:4 the martyrs are on thrones. The difference between these scriptures is God's judgment has already come to those certain martyrs. The victory came in the spiritual realm of God, not the physical, and God assured their victory.

John was shown in a vision those souls that already had the victory over death as being in Christ. When we who are of Christ die before His return God has already passed judgement on us and we have the victory in Christ over that of the second death, 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. Those who are not of Christ will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. There is only one resurrection, but two judgements, John 5:28, 29. Those in Christ are raised first as those still alive at His coming will be gathered and caught up together to meet Christ in the air to be with Christ for eternity, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. The rest are then raised for their judgement as rejecting Christ and there forever have their place in the lake of fire. Rev 20:4 says nothing about Jesus coming to this earth and establishing a worldly kingdom at Jerusalem.

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
(notice as in being figurative and not literal.)

 

[JLB]

Can you expound on what that symbolism is and while you're at it, could you expound on what the symbolism of the 1000-year reign is, since it doesn't mean that there will literally be a 1000-year reign of Christ on the earth.

The 1000 year reign with Christ is the rest the weekly Sabbath points to.

The seventh prophetic day; seven thousand years from Adam.

 

[for_his_glory]

You just got done naming an event, not a sign , as a prerequisite to Christ's coming.
By definition the prerequisite event means that nobody is looking for his coming until that event first happens .

These are the signs Jesus himself gave us to watch for as these events are yet future, but no man knows the day or the hour of His return, but we need to be prepared to be caught up to Him when He returns so Jesus does not come to us as a thief in the night.

 

[for_his_glory]

Y’all are stressing a redneck.

Physical list?:
Seed
Ground
Thief at night
Food and drink

Spiritual list?:
Life from the Word of God
The rapture
Men’s hearts
Word of God

Match both lists. Are these perfect? No. If I do not start this, I will not get more.

The sacrifice lamb in the law of Moses is Jesus. Two physicals that point to forgiveness of sins. One forgiveness is for one year. The other is for eternity.

Joseph of Egypt had a multi colored special coat.
Jesus had a special seamless garment.

Both Joseph and Jesus lost their garments.
Joseph saved people from starvation. Jesus saved people from spiritual death. A comparison can exist.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Many things are hard to understand as many like to use carnal logic to that which is Spiritual. That is why so many have a hard time understanding Revelations. You are doing just fine as I like how your mind works at times.

 

[KV-44-v1]

I forgot to add this. Jesus only returns one time on the last day as then He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all those who are in their graves that are His own as we who are still alive at His coming will then the door of salvation through Christ will be closed. No second chances as no one can be saved after that moment. Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 6:39-40; 1 Corinthians 15:50-58; 1 Thessalonians 13:13-18.

FYI, it is a common error by many anti-rapture people to think that 2nd Coming and rapture are same. They are clearly NOT.
IDK which rapture timeframe you think is true, pre mid or post trib.
I go for mid or pre.

Rapturous, Greek.

 

[KV-44-v1]

Please show me with scripture where it teaches a pretrib Rapture as in forty years of studying scripture I have never found any. I use to believe all those teachings about pretrib, but I was still young in the word and just accepted that which was taught.

There's a bunch of verses that point to it.
openbible.info/topics/pre_tribulation_rapture

Luke 21:36​

1 Thessalonians 4:17​

Matthew 25:1-13​

4. The Rapture is the believer’s “hope” (1 Th. 4:13). This is what we are waiting for. We are looking for Christ, not the Antichrist. This is the believer’s “blessed hope” (Tit. 2:13).

Note that believers do not sorrow “as others which have no hope.” Those without Christ have no hope. Ephesians 2:12 says those “without Christ” have no hope and are without God in the world. Any hope they might have is vain hope that is based on fables rather than God’s Word. In contrast, the saved have true hope based on Christ’s atonement and God’s promises. We see that believers do sorrow, but not like the world. The believers at Jerusalem “made great lamentation” when Stephen was martyred (Ac. 8:2). Paul had sorrow when Epaphroditus was sick nigh unto death (Php. 2:25-27). On a personal basis, death is a blessing for the believer. Paul said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Php. 1:21).

5. The Rapture was taught to Paul “by the word of the Lord” (1 Th. 4:14).

It is divine revelation, and there is no other means by which man can know the future with certainty.

The Rapture is a mystery that was first revealed to Paul. The Rapture was not described in Old Testament prophecy (1 Co. 15:51-52), yet the second coming of Christ is described in much detail (e.g., Ps. 50:3-6; 96:13; 97:1-4; 98:9; 102:13-14; Isa. 26:21; 28:21-22; 30:27-30; 35:4; 40:10-11; 42:13-17; 59:16-20; 62:11; 63:1-6; 66:15-16; Jer. 25:30-33; Da. 7:9-14; Joe. 3:16; Mic. 1:3-4; Zec. 2:10-13; 8:3; 14:3-7; Mal. 3:1-5; 4:1-2).

Bible prophecy is irrefutable evidence of the divine inspiration of Scripture. Christ’s coming was preceded by prophecies of His birthplace (Mic. 5:2), virgin birth (Isa. 7:14), healings (Isa. 35:4-6), betrayal by a friend for 30 pieces of silver (Ps. 41:9; Zec. 11:12-13), the injustice of his trial (Isa. 53:8), crucifixion (Ps. 22:14-16), no bones broken (Ps. 22:17), burial with the rich (Isa. 53:9), resurrection (Ps. 16:10), and ascension (Ps. 110:1).

wayoflife.org/reports/key_bible_passages_on_the_pre-tribulation_rapture.php

 

[for_his_glory]

FYI, it is a common error by many anti-rapture people to think that 2nd Coming and rapture are same. They are clearly NOT.
IDK which rapture timeframe you think is true, pre mid or post trib.
I go for mid or pre.

Rapturous, Greek.

Jesus returns only one time on the last day as scripture calls it being caught up to Him as the word Rapture is not found in scripture. Read these below scriptures.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.