No Pretrib Rapture

[for_his_glory]

There's a bunch of verses that point to it.
openbible.info/topics/pre_tribulation_rapture

Luke 21:36​

1 Thessalonians 4:17​

Matthew 25:1-13​

4. The Rapture is the believer’s “hope” (1 Th. 4:13). This is what we are waiting for. We are looking for Christ, not the Antichrist. This is the believer’s “blessed hope” (Tit. 2:13).

Note that believers do not sorrow “as others which have no hope.” Those without Christ have no hope. Ephesians 2:12 says those “without Christ” have no hope and are without God in the world. Any hope they might have is vain hope that is based on fables rather than God’s Word. In contrast, the saved have true hope based on Christ’s atonement and God’s promises. We see that believers do sorrow, but not like the world. The believers at Jerusalem “made great lamentation” when Stephen was martyred (Ac. 8:2). Paul had sorrow when Epaphroditus was sick nigh unto death (Php. 2:25-27). On a personal basis, death is a blessing for the believer. Paul said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Php. 1:21).

5. The Rapture was taught to Paul “by the word of the Lord” (1 Th. 4:14).

It is divine revelation, and there is no other means by which man can know the future with certainty.

The Rapture is a mystery that was first revealed to Paul. The Rapture was not described in Old Testament prophecy (1 Co. 15:51-52), yet the second coming of Christ is described in much detail (e.g., Ps. 50:3-6; 96:13; 97:1-4; 98:9; 102:13-14; Isa. 26:21; 28:21-22; 30:27-30; 35:4; 40:10-11; 42:13-17; 59:16-20; 62:11; 63:1-6; 66:15-16; Jer. 25:30-33; Da. 7:9-14; Joe. 3:16; Mic. 1:3-4; Zec. 2:10-13; 8:3; 14:3-7; Mal. 3:1-5; 4:1-2).

Bible prophecy is irrefutable evidence of the divine inspiration of Scripture. Christ’s coming was preceded by prophecies of His birthplace (Mic. 5:2), virgin birth (Isa. 7:14), healings (Isa. 35:4-6), betrayal by a friend for 30 pieces of silver (Ps. 41:9; Zec. 11:12-13), the injustice of his trial (Isa. 53:8), crucifixion (Ps. 22:14-16), no bones broken (Ps. 22:17), burial with the rich (Isa. 53:9), resurrection (Ps. 16:10), and ascension (Ps. 110:1).

wayoflife.org/reports/key_bible_passages_on_the_pre-tribulation_rapture.php

I've heard all the teachings about a Pretrib Rapture and used to believe those teachings as I was young and dumb in the word of God and just accepted what was taught. But, the more I studied the full context of scripture for what they give nowhere does it say anything about a pretrib.

Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Full context is that we are to flee when we see these abominations take place as Jesus has a place prepared for us as He will meet our needs, Matthew 24:15-21.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This happens on the last day when Christ returns in final judgement destroying the beast and false prophet after those who took the mark of the beast who have sealed their fate of damnation.

Matthew 25:1-13 is all about those who have made themselves ready for the return of Christ as the word is a lamp unto our feet and the oil is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[for_his_glory]

There's a bunch of verses that point to it.
openbible.info/topics/pre_tribulation_rapture

Luke 21:36​

1 Thessalonians 4:17​

Matthew 25:1-13​

4. The Rapture is the believer’s “hope” (1 Th. 4:13). This is what we are waiting for. We are looking for Christ, not the Antichrist. This is the believer’s “blessed hope” (Tit. 2:13).

Note that believers do not sorrow “as others which have no hope.” Those without Christ have no hope. Ephesians 2:12 says those “without Christ” have no hope and are without God in the world. Any hope they might have is vain hope that is based on fables rather than God’s Word. In contrast, the saved have true hope based on Christ’s atonement and God’s promises. We see that believers do sorrow, but not like the world. The believers at Jerusalem “made great lamentation” when Stephen was martyred (Ac. 8:2). Paul had sorrow when Epaphroditus was sick nigh unto death (Php. 2:25-27). On a personal basis, death is a blessing for the believer. Paul said, “For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain” (Php. 1:21).

5. The Rapture was taught to Paul “by the word of the Lord” (1 Th. 4:14).

It is divine revelation, and there is no other means by which man can know the future with certainty.

The Rapture is a mystery that was first revealed to Paul. The Rapture was not described in Old Testament prophecy (1 Co. 15:51-52), yet the second coming of Christ is described in much detail (e.g., Ps. 50:3-6; 96:13; 97:1-4; 98:9; 102:13-14; Isa. 26:21; 28:21-22; 30:27-30; 35:4; 40:10-11; 42:13-17; 59:16-20; 62:11; 63:1-6; 66:15-16; Jer. 25:30-33; Da. 7:9-14; Joe. 3:16; Mic. 1:3-4; Zec. 2:10-13; 8:3; 14:3-7; Mal. 3:1-5; 4:1-2).

Bible prophecy is irrefutable evidence of the divine inspiration of Scripture. Christ’s coming was preceded by prophecies of His birthplace (Mic. 5:2), virgin birth (Isa. 7:14), healings (Isa. 35:4-6), betrayal by a friend for 30 pieces of silver (Ps. 41:9; Zec. 11:12-13), the injustice of his trial (Isa. 53:8), crucifixion (Ps. 22:14-16), no bones broken (Ps. 22:17), burial with the rich (Isa. 53:9), resurrection (Ps. 16:10), and ascension (Ps. 110:1).

wayoflife.org/reports/key_bible_passages_on_the_pre-tribulation_rapture.php

BTW that website is not clickable.

 

[miamited]

The 1000 year reign with Christ is the rest the weekly Sabbath points to.

The seventh prophetic day; seven thousand years from Adam.

Hi JLB
But it is a 1000 year period, right? I mean, you're saying that there were 6,000 years of life and then a final 1000 years of life. That total equals 7,000 years, which is a 'week' in your understanding. Am I understanding that correctly?

God bless,
Ted

 

[Consecrated Life]

Paul taught it could happen at any moment &was confident that the Lord coming for His own could just as well happen the day he spoke the following:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Paul is speaking of himself being eligible to be caught up with all others on the day he said this .
He does not say " Then those or they" which will be alive and remain.." speaking of the future.
Paul instead speaks in present tense when he says , WE WHICH ARE ALIVE. leaving no doubt he believed that the catching up could happen the day he talked about it .

Well, the catching up has not happened yet, so this would make Paul a liar by how you understand what he said, or that you might not understand the full context of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 as "we" means those who are still alive at His coming.

Paul was a highly educated man, and knew the exact meaning of his carefully chosen words.
As was Merriam Webster.
Mr. Webster gives common clear understanding of Paul's use of the FIRST PERSON in the PLURAL making clear he believed the catching up could happen the very day he spoke of it, and that he includes himself as being eligible for the catching up.
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain

The Merriam Webster Dictionary’s definitions of the first, second and third person pronouns are as follows.

Check it out.

Pronoun	Person	Number
I	First person	Singular
We	First person	Plural
You	Second person	Singular/Plural
He	Third person	Singular
She	Third person	Singular
It	Third person	Singular
They	Third person	Plural

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB
But it is a 1000 year period, right? I mean, you're saying that there were 6,000 years of life and then a final 1000 years of life. That total equals 7,000 years, which is a 'week' in your understanding. Am I understanding that correctly?

God bless,
Ted

Yes sir.

The weekly Sabbath points to, and is a shadow of, the rest to come.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:8-9

again

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17



The 7th prophetic "Day" is a thousand years.


But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

 

[miamited]

Yes sir.

The 7th "Day" is a thousand years.


But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

Ok, well that's what this particular discussion is about. Whether or not the 1000 years reign of Jesus is a literal thousand years or not. I'll put you down as being on the 'literal' side with me. Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

 

[JLB]

Ok, well that's what this particular discussion is about. Whether or not the 1000 years reign of Jesus is a literal thousand years or not. I'll put you down as being on the 'literal' side with me. Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

I added some -


Yes sir.

The weekly Sabbath points to, and is a shadow of, the rest to come.

For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. Hebrews 4:8-9

again

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17



The 7th prophetic "Day" is a thousand years.


But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

 

[for_his_glory]

Paul was a highly educated man, and knew the exact meaning of his carefully chosen words.
As was Merriam Webster.
Mr. Webster gives common clear understanding of Paul's use of the FIRST PERSON in the PLURAL making clear he believed the catching up could happen the very day he spoke of it, and that he includes himself as being eligible for the catching up.
1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain

The Merriam Webster Dictionary’s definitions of the first, second and third person pronouns are as follows.

Check it out.

Pronoun	Person	Number
I	First person	Singular
We	First person	Plural
You	Second person	Singular/Plural
He	Third person	Singular
She	Third person	Singular
It	Third person	Singular
They	Third person	Plural

Thank you but don't need your definition of "we".

Like I said, Jesus never has returned yet so where does this leave us with what Paul said. From the time Jesus taught of His second coming and what must come first, all that are His own have been anticipating His return ever since He ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father by being prepared for His return.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Thank you but don't need your definition of "we".

Like I said, Jesus never has returned yet so where does this leave us with what Paul said. From the time Jesus taught of His second coming and what must come first, all that are His own have been anticipating His return ever since He ascended up to sit at the right hand of the Father by being prepared for His return.

Where it leaves is either agreeing that Paul knew of what he spoke and that Jesus's gathering of His believers will happen at any moment as Paul anticipated, completely independent from any sign or event, or disagreeing with him.
I choose to agree with Paul .

 

[for_his_glory]

Where it leaves is either agreeing that Paul knew of what he spoke and that Jesus's gathering of His believers will happen at any moment as Paul anticipated, completely independent from any sign or event, or disagreeing with him.
I choose to agree with Paul .

I think it was you that said Paul believed it would happen in his lifetime or did you only mean he, like all of us anticipated the return of Christ.

Read Matthew 24:1-8 as theses are the beginning of sorrows, but the end is not yet.

From vs. 9-28 takes us up to the timing of Christ return as He gave us signs to look for so we will not be taken as a thief in the night. In vs. 29-31 Jesus clearly says immediately after the tribulation of those days, meaning everything from Matthew 24:1-28 that includes the son of perdition/false prophet/last antichrist that Jesus said must come first before He returns. But yet, no one knows the day or the hour, but will be like in the days of Noah as the flood came and washed them all away other then Noah and his family that God found favor in Noah.

 

[for_his_glory]

Ok, well that's what this particular discussion is about. Whether or not the 1000 years reign of Jesus is a literal thousand years or not. I'll put you down as being on the 'literal' side with me. Thanks.

God bless,
Ted

The OP is about no pretrib rapture and we need to get back to that as, including myself has taken this off topic and the 1000 years needs to be another thread so all of us please go back to the OP, Thank you.

 

[Consecrated Life]

I think it was you that said Paul believed it would happen in his lifetime or did you only mean he, like all of us anticipated the return of Christ.

Again your failure to grasp the language Paul uses has caused you to make a leap that does not exist in Paul's exact choice of words.
Paul includes himself in the group of people that he is speaking to .
Paul is not saying it all about , ME !, ME!, ME!
Paul's words say it is all about WE !, WE!, WE!
This leap you are making in saying Paul is telling them that Jesus's coming is confined just to the days of his life and nobody else's makes absolutely no sense in the context of Paul including everyone with the word "WE".
"WE", means he is speaking to the group as having an equal opportunity to be alive when Jesus comes as long as they "REMAIN" alive .
"REMAIN" being the additional operative word you have missed the meaning of with this leap you are making.
"REMAIN" , put in context to the group of people Paul is speaking to.
Paul being just one member of the entire group, who might be remaining or might not be remaining when Christ comes.
The word "REMAIN" Paul uses to those he is speaking to is clearly reference to the possibility that since the Lord could come next week or next decade that many present may have already died , and being dead they no longer , "REMAIN" !

 

[miamited]

I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come first before the return of Christ, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord. We need to be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation,

Hey for_his_glory

Well, I am in 100% agreement with you on all of this. Just as is written above, "When we see the abomination that causes deolation..." We're going to be here when we see that. Then, we are told to look for our salvation 'is near'. So I believe the whole teaching as regards this matter and how it is addressed in this piece of God's word, is that we will see the abomination that causes desolation and we, who are believers will understand what it is. We will then still be here for a short while as we are told that:

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!

I believe Jesus is telling us that when we see these things, and of course that can be a big question also. A lot of the things that he gives as signs, seem to have happened in 70 A.D. But a lot of the signs could not have happened in that time. Jesus did not return.

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

That's a declarative statement. And as far as I know, we haven't been through that period of shortened days that is spoken of here. I can't see how God shortened any days before the events of 70 A.D.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

Just a few scriptures that mention Jesus being taken up and then coming back with the clouds. I read that clouds here is connected with the divine presence and the glory of God. It really does nor carry any significance to His ascending up or coming back.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I think you're right in how clouds often speak of Gods' presence and glory, but clouds obscure our vision so that we can't see the very Person of God.
Every eye (Rev.1:7) did see Him in His Son, but scripture also says,

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb.12:14 KJV

This explains how every one on earth will see God, but in Jesus. Consider this,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one satlike unto the Son of man.....for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev.14:14-16 KJV

Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. Jn.4:35 KJV

Our Savior said His disciples entered the work of the prophets, sowing and reaping, gathering now,
Our Savior said His disciples aee invincible now.

 

[journeyman]

for_his_glory
Please consider this,

Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Act.4:25-26 KJV

Peter is quoting Psa.2 as a currect reality. He's saying the Messiah defeated this worlds' system already by His resurrection.
It tells us to go to battle the same way. He's defeating the powers of darkness by His Spirit in us. This is not cleat (it's cloudy) to unbelievers,

...I will come to you. Jn.14:18 KJV

 

[eddif]

The Rapture is a mystery that was first revealed to Paul. The Rapture was not described in Old Testament prophecy

As the eyes of your understanding is enlightened you begin to see these things.

It is not the carnal (I) / (i) small case i
That sees the things you speak of. It is the life giving Spirit Jesus became that reveals things as we sup with him. We are not the source of understanding

When we quote OT passages IMHO there is a veil over most peoples understanding. In Christ the veil is removed. (That is a Scripture ).
We tend to forget where the understanding comes from.

The disciples did not understand the parable of the sower, They asked (why do you speak in parables?). Jesus responds (so that hearing they hear not) And (seeing they see not). Matthew 13, Mark 4 etc.

Shadows of things yet to come are not clear in darkness. The veil hides the revelation.

Today we use night vision technology to see in darkness. To see OT hidden truth it takes the Holy Spirit to open eyes of understanding. I was one of the most blind. Now I am a low vision person. Keeps me from being too elated.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

I think you're right in how clouds often speak of Gods' presence and glory, but clouds obscure our vision so that we can't see the very Person of God.
Every eye (Rev.1:7) did see Him in His Son, but scripture also says,

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb.12:14 KJV

This explains how every one on earth will see God, but in Jesus. Consider this,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one satlike unto the Son of man.....for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev.14:14-16 KJV

Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. Jn.4:35 KJV

Our Savior said His disciples entered the work of the prophets, sowing and reaping, gathering now,
Our Savior said His disciples aee invincible now.

Clouds
Made in the image of God.
So where are the clouds?
IMHO the cerebral cortex looks like clouds. The life giving Spirit comes into a part of us that man describes as sub-conscious.

Modern brain activity is noted in the cerebellum. Carnal thinking is evidently not in the cerebral cortex as much as once thought, but possibly more in the cerebellum.

So. IMHO
The life giving Spirit (Jesus became) can live in the Spirit of our mind (if we open the door).. The part that looks like clouds.

Since this sounds so far out. Everyone is free to tell me I have gone too far.

The New Jerusalem is more Spirit than the physical Jerusalem Abraham rejected.

The seed is the Word of God

The New Jerusalem???

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[brother Paul]

The main clue is right here in the very passafe the Pre-Trib crowd uses.Paul makes it very clear that this event takes place at the Parousia(the seconf Coming). He says


1Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 - "According to the Lord's own word,we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left tillthe coming (the parousia)of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with thetrumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first (thefirst resurrection). After that (after the parousia at the firstresurrection), we who are still alive and are left will becaught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in theair (when He comes in the clouds). And so we will be withthe Lord forever.

Therefore encourage each other with thesewords. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to writeto you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will comelike a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace andsafety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor painson a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you,brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise youlike a thief."

And now read in 2 Thesslonians

“Andthen shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume withthe spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of hiscoming (theParousia again)

So the dead rising, the catching up (or rapture), AND the consumption ofthe Anti-Christ all occur at the same event (the Paroousia or seconfcoming). Thus the Sppirit filled believers are here on earth duringthe first 3 ½ years of the Trib while the Anti-Christ reigns then weare with Him for the second 3 ½ while the wrath is poured out (thuswe escape it).

Paul makes it clear this was according to the Lord's own words and thesecan be found in Matthew 24 whew He says:

Matthew 24 says to the Church about the Parousia....

3As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Himprivately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, andwhat will be the sign of Your coming (the parousia), and of the endof the age?"

4And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleadsyou."

8"But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs."

9"Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you,and you will be hated by all nations because of My name."

10"At that time many will fall away (apostasia) and will betray one anotherand hate one another."

15"Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which wasspoken of through Daniel the prophet (which abomination is theAnti-Christ), standing in the holy place (let the readerunderstand),"

21"Forthen there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurredsince the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

22"Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but forthe sake of the elect, those days will be cut short. (the "elect"are saved Christians alive in that time period,,,present at the timeof the Anti-Christ)

23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There Heis,' do not believe him.

24"Forfalse Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signsand wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect (who arestill alive).


25"Behold,I have told you in advance.


26"Soif they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out,or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.

27"Forjust as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to thewest, so will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be (not asecret).

29"But immediately after the tribulation of those days (theone spoken of in verse 21) THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOONWILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, andthe powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30"And then (after these things...after the rise of Anti-Christ andthe apostasia and the persecution during his portion of thetribulation) the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky(the epiphenea at the parousia), and then all the tribes of the earthwill mourn (Zech.12:10), and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ONTHE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

So the whole world sees the coming (the parousia) and then

31"And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEYWILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one endof the sky to the other. (the Rapture occuring at theepiphenea/parousia event just like the others have described it)

a)the tribulation
b)the coming (parousia) and the appearing are the same "after thetribulation" event

1. the Rapture occurs at this time
   

Remember 2 Thessalonians 2:8, according to Paul ...the Anti-Christ is consumedby the brightness of His appearing (epiphenea) at the Parousia (hiscoming) which according to Jesus whom we have just read, is when theRapture occurs. According to Paul elsewhere, therefore again, theRapture occurs after the reign of Anti-Christ. This is the word ofGod from both Jesus and Paul...

Now some say this chapter refers to the siege of Jerusalem and Titus in70 A.D. but I ask you when at that time did Jesus come down in theclouds with glory and be seen by all the nations of the earth? And ifthis was the first resurrection how come the rapture (the gatheringfrom the four corners of the earth and the heavens) take place? Ordid we miss it?

Finally in a number of places we are told that st the coming (the Parousia)ALL will see it, It is not secret or a half coming,

Mark13:26-27 - At that time (the parousia) men will see theSon of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.And he will send his angels and gather his elect from thefour winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

This passage that Peter recalled to Mark in Rome while he wasawaiting his martyrdom, speaks of the Rapture (the gathering of Hiselect to Himself), but note that it is at the time of the Parousia(the coming of Chrtist) and that it is written that "men willsee the Son of Man coming in the clouds...". That is, thepeople of the world. Thus, the Rapture/Parousia/Coming will beno secret...

Matthew 24:27 - For as lightning that comesfrom the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming (theParousia) of the Son of Man. (which as we justheard from Paul, Peter and Mark is the time of the gathering of theelect, i.e., the Church)

Matthew 24:30 "At that timethe sign of the Son of Man will appear (epiphany)in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. they willsee the Son of Man coming (parousia)on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

There is much more but I will leave you with this to ponder and when youget a chance look up the Koine Greek usage of the word Apentensis. Itrefers to when a group pod like minded people go out to meet a heroor King on his way and touch base at his destiny with him! We aregathered with Christ in the air, but touch down with Him. Hecompletes the Patousia once not 1 and ½ times.

Just my $.02

 

[Consecrated Life]

So the dead rising, the catching up (or rapture), AND the consumption ofthe Anti-Christ all occur at the same event

So we don't have to expect Jesus coming until after the Anti-Christ is in power ?

Matthew 24:44
"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."

 

[for_his_glory]

I think you're right in how clouds often speak of Gods' presence and glory, but clouds obscure our vision so that we can't see the very Person of God.
Every eye (Rev.1:7) did see Him in His Son, but scripture also says,

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Heb.12:14 KJV

This explains how every one on earth will see God, but in Jesus. Consider this,

And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one satlike unto the Son of man.....for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev.14:14-16 KJV

Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest. Jn.4:35 KJV

Our Savior said His disciples entered the work of the prophets, sowing and reaping, gathering now,
Our Savior said His disciples aee invincible now.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Notice this verse says that even those who pierced Him will see Him coming with clouds. They, like anyone who has died, are for now still in their grave, so this takes us to what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28-29; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

When Jesus comes with clouds, immediately after the tribulation of those days after many have taken the mark of the beast, then while He is still in the air he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other and we who are Christ own alive or in the grave will be caught up together to meet Him in the air.

We are to live our life holy and blameless before the Lord, Ephesians 1:3-6. We are told not to be weary, but to endure all things as Christ helps us and strengthens us that we do not waver in faith.

Rev:14:14-16 The one upon the white cloud is an angel as Jesus stated in Matthew 13:39 that the reapers are angels sent to come at the end of the age. The angel on the white cloud wears a symbolic crown of gold which means Gods’ great authority given to him as he waits for the angel that comes out from Gods presence to declare it is now time to take the sharp sickle in his hand which represents the reaping of the harvest as the timing has now come on earth to separate the wheat from the tares, Matthew 13:24-43.