Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Butch5]

Please do, as I see St Paul addressing his words to the "saints" of Ephesus and the Faithful in Christ, who have been "chosen before the foundation of the world."

However, such is not the cornerstone of any rejection of salvation "by works". Such a cornerstone is simply the grace and the mercy of the divine, coupled with the gratitude of the person of faith, which will issue in a life of the "spirit", and has done so in people of all faiths.

Let me say here that I agree Paul is addressing the church at Ephesus. It is my contention that in verse 3-12 he is speaking about the Jews. Also, if you'd like another look at this topic from the perspective of the Greek text it can be found here Ephesians 1:3-12

Commentary on Ephesians Chapter 1:3:12​

Who was Chosen before the foundation of the world?​

Does Ephesians 1 say that believers in Christ were chosen before the foundation of the world? Many Christians believe this, so let’s take a look and see.
In Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul speaks of the Jews not Christians in general. It was the Jews who were chosen before the foundation of the world. Let's look at what Paul himself has to sa.,

Ephesians Chapter 1

Ephesians 1:3-14 ( KJV ) 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Notice Paul's use of first and second person personal plural pronouns. Paul is speaking of two different groups here, notice of one group he says we, our, and us. Of the other group he says you and your. Paul includes himself in the first group, the, we, our, us, group. Then he says to the Ephesians, and you after you heard the gospel, the Ephesians are the second group. So who is the first group? The group Paul includes himself in? They were chosen before the foundation of the world, they were predestined to adoption, they were to be to the praise of His glory, they had received an inheritance. These are references to the Jews.

Ephesians 1:1-14 ( KJV )
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

As we proceed notice all of the verbs are in the past tense except one.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

This is a Hebraism, Blessed, is a Hebrew praise, The Hebrew word is "Baw-rak", it means praise

Bawrak Adonai = Praise Adonai

Paul's using this Hebrew praise suggests that He had a common bond with the leadership of the Church at Ephesus indicating that they were likely Jewish.

This praise is found throughout the OT. One example can be found in Genesis 9.

Genesis 9:26 ( KJV )
And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Peter wrote his first Epistle to Jewish Christians, the strangers of the Diaspora also uses this term blessed. Peter opens his Epistle this way,

1 Peter 1:1-5 ( KJV )
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter starts his Epistle just as Paul did, with praise to God. He speaks of the election of Israel then he says blessed be God. Notice Peter says He has begotten us again. The nation of Israel was adopted in the OT. God called Israel His son, however they broke the covenant so they had to be adopted again.

Heavenly is an adjective and is in the Neuter gender and means heavenly things, not places.

what heavenly things has Israel been blessed with?

Deuteronomy 28:1-8 ( KJV )
And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

In Christ,


The Law, it is Spiritual. Who gave the Law to Moses? Jesus, Jesus was involved with the law from the very beginning. He was in the burning bush, when Moses asked, who shall I say sent me, Jesus said I am.


Exodus 3:14 ( KJV )
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

We know this was Jesus because when He was challenged by the Pharisee is John He said,


John 8:56-58 ( KJV )
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God chose Israel to be a holy and blameless before Him.


Exodus 19:3-6 ( KJV )
And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 ( KJV )
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

These above refer to the Exodus, God choosing them and bringing them out of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 14:1-2 ( KJV )
Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

Deuteronomy 26:16-19 ( KJV )
This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:
And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken.

 

[Butch5]

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Predestined means predetermined. God called Israel to be an holy separated people, His predetermined plan was to save them through adoption.

Romans 9:1-5 ( KJV )
I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Galatians 4:4-5 ( KJV )
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Made us accepted is not a good translation, the word translated made us accepted is,

Thayer’s Greek Definitions

G5487 χαριτόω charitoō Thayer Definition: 1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

and it only appears twice in the NT, here and in Luke 1:28,

Luke 1:28 ( KJV )
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Highly favored is the better translation.

It could read He made us favoured above all or He made us highly favoured.

In the Beloved.

Beloved is a participle and it is in the perfect tense. This means it is an action completed in the past with results continuing to the present. It literally means "the one have been beloved".


Septuagint Deuteronomy 32:15

15 So Jacob ate and was filled, and the beloved one kicked; he grew fat, he became thick and broad: then he forsook the God that made him, and departed from God his Saviour.

Septuagint Deuteronomy, 33:1-5

33:1 And this is the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. 2 And he said, The Lord is come from Sina, and has appeared from Seir to us, and has hasted out of the mount of Pharan, with the ten thousands of Cades; on his right hand were his angels with him. 3 And he spared his people, and all his sanctified ones are under thy hands; and they are under thee; and he received of his words 4 the law which Moses charged us, an inheritance to the assemblies of Jacob. 5 And he shall be prince with the beloved one, when the princes of the people are gathered together with the tribes of Israel.

God loved Israel and He brought them out of Egypt and blessed them yet they turned on Him.

Septuagint Dueteronomy 33:26-29

26 There is not any such as the God of the beloved; he who rides upon the heaven is thy helper, and the magnificent One of the firmament. 27 And the rule of God shall protect thee, and that under the strength of the everlasting arms; and he shall cast forth the enemy from before thy face, saying, Perish. 28 And Israel shall dwell in confidence alone on the land of Jacob, with corn and wine; and the sky shall be misty with dew upon thee. 29 Blessed art thou, O Israel; who is like to thee, O people saved by the Lord? thy helper shall hold his shield over thee, and his sword is thy boast; and thine enemies shall speak falsely to thee, and thou shalt tread upon their neck.

Septuagint Isaiah 44:1-2
44:1 But now hear, Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 Thus saith the Lord God that made thee, and he that formed thee from the womb; Thou shalt yet be helped: fear not, my servant Jacob; and beloved Israel, whom I have chosen.

Jeremiah 11:14-15 ( KJV ) 14Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble. 15What hath my beloved to do in mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.

Jeremiah 12:7 ( KJV ) 7I have forsaken mine house, I have left mine heritage; I have given the dearly beloved of my soul into the hand of her enemies.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

This is the only verse that has a present tense verb. He is speaking of himself and the believing Jews..

Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Who did God abound toward in all wisdom?

John 16:12-13 ( KJV )
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Galatians 1:10-12 ( KJV )
For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Ephesians 3:1-5 ( KJV )
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

The mystery of His will speaks of the word of God. Paul says,

Romans 3:1-2 ( KJV )
What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Paul says they have obtained an inheritance, yet further down in verse 14 he says the Gentiles have received the earnest of their inheritance. The inheritance is the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel did inherit the land, however they could not keep it because they did not obey the Law.

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

The literal translation of the Greek phrase "first trusted" is " before hoped". It was Israel who "before hoped" in the Christ. They had prophet after prophet prophesying the coming of the Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Here Paul tells us that some of these promises pertain to the Gentiles when he says " and you after you believed."


Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Here Paul tells us that the Ephesians have received the earnest or down payment of their inheritance, unlike the Jews who had received their inheritance.

Ephesians 1:15-20 ( KJV )
Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Paul goes on in the rest of hte chapter to tell them that his prayer is that God would enlighten them and give them understanding. He wants them to understand all of the blessings he has just spoken of regarding what God had done for Israel.

Finally we have evidence from the Early church, Tertullian quotes this passage while refuting Marcione,

The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 3

Again, what Christ do the following words announce, when the apostle says: “That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ?†(Ephesians 1:12) Now who could have first trusted i.e., previously trusted in God, before His advent, except the Jews to whom Christ was previously announced, from the beginning? He who was thus foretold, was also foretrusted. Hence the apostle refers the statement to himself, that is, to the Jews, in order that he may draw a distinction with respect to the Gentiles, (when he goes on to say “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel (of your salvation); in whom ye believed, and were sealed with His Holy Spirit of promise.†(Ephesians 1:13) Of what promise? That which was made through Joel: “In the last days will I pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh,†(Joel 2:28) that is, on all nations. Therefore the Spirit and the Gospel will be found in the Christ, who was foretrusted, because foretold.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew,

I believe we are talking about two different passages. I was referring to chapter 1 not chapter 2.

ok, sorry.

 

[Butch5]

Drew, you may indeed insert your snout..................but can I get back to what I posted originally.....

the point being made is that our "salvation" does as I see it depend upon the constancy of the Divine and not on that of ourselves. If we are "chosen before the foundation of the world" then nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make God love us less.

For our "salvation" - or not - to change according to our latest "work", then we have a salvation of works, pure and simple.

True "works" spring from gratitude/faith.

All the best

Hi,

This presumes that Luther's teaching on works is correct, I submit that it is not. I believe Drew would agree with that statement. Therefore the works issue must be addressed in order for the argument you've presented to be validated.

 

[Eventide]

Basically yes, although I would need to explain further. I am claiming (and this is not my own idea, of course) that the reformation has indeed made some mistakes in its understanding of Paul re the issue of salvation. In short, notwithstanding all sorts of other things he believes, Paul believe that there will be a great judgement at which all humanity will appear and that eternal life will be granted according to, yes, what we have done.

So let's change the rest of scripture to match that..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do good works and thou shalt be saved

Sounds ridiculous to me, although nothing surprises me anymore in these forums.

Well, you did not answer my question. Here it is again:

Please do not tell me about what he says elsewhere. What is Paul saying here - in these two particular verses.

It's saying EXACTLY what it says Drew... although if you think that it is YOU doing the good works then you're mistaken.. and you have ALREADY agreed that there is nothing good in you... so where is the problem ?

 

[Drew]

So let's change the rest of scripture to match that..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and do good works and thou shalt be saved

Sounds ridiculous to me, although nothing surprises me anymore in these forums.

False choice. Let's be clear: The statement "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" is entirely consistent with what Paul says about being saved at the end by good works. Again - and it is really interesting no one is taking me on about this - here is what Paul's overall argument is:

The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

Since the Spirit cannot fail, you will indeed produce the good works!!!

So Paul can indeed assert that belief guarantees final salvation, but not because good works are not necessary for salvation: that would contradict this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Instead Paul can say "believe and you will be saved" precisely because the Spirit will produce the good works that save.

 

[Drew]

It's saying EXACTLY what it says Drew...

Thank you for agreeing. If it says exactly what it says, then it is saying that eternal life is granted according to good works.

Because, and there is no doubt about this, it is saying what it says: Eternal life is granted according to what you have done.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I have repeatedly pointed out that the Spirit produces the works, but you are still given eternal life according to those works!

I continue to be amazed at the denial I am seeing. As a statement rendered in english, Paul cannot be misunderstood: he is asserting that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

To deny this is to misunderstand something fundamental about the nature of a sentence and the meaing of the words that compose it.

 

[Drew]

Let me try this angle. Consider some person named "Anti-Paul" who, according to you guys holds the heretical view that, at the end of a person's life, eternal life will be granted according to "good works" (how you have lived, whether you have consistently done good things, etc., etc.).

Now imagine Anti-Paul wanting to mislead the church with this "heretical" position. I cannot think of a more clear expression of Anti-Paul's position than this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I trust the point is clear......

 

[Drew]

Or let my try this. Imagine this statement by someone named Fred:

Admission to Harvard is according to grades.

Now imagine someone else (Jane) saying that what Fred really means is this:

Admission to Harvard is according to having gone to George Washington High School.

We would (rightly) think that Jane simply does not understand english. Even if Jane protests "but getting good grades is evidence of having gone to George Washington High School", and even if she is right about this, she has still done great violence to the original statement - she has simply changed its meaning.

 

[Butch5]

False choice. Let's be clear: The statement "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" is entirely consistent with what Paul says about being saved at the end by good works. Again - and it is really interesting no one is taking me on about this - here is what Paul's overall argument is:

The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

Since the Spirit cannot fail, you will indeed produce the good works!!!

So Paul can indeed assert that belief guarantees final salvation, but not because good works are not necessary for salvation: that would contradict this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Instead Paul can say "believe and you will be saved" precisely because the Spirit will produce the good works that save.

It seems to me that you're defeating your own argument. If it is the spear that does the works and the Spirit cannot fail the believer isn't doing any works. This sounds Calvinistic to me.

Do you believe a believer can be lost?

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for agreeing. If it says exactly what it says, then it is saying that eternal life is granted according to good works.

Because, and there is no doubt about this, it is saying what it says: Eternal life is granted according to what you have done.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

I have repeatedly pointed out that the Spirit produces the works, but you are still given eternal life according to those works!

I continue to be amazed at the denial I am seeing. As a statement rendered in english, Paul cannot be misunderstood: he is asserting that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

To deny this is to misunderstand something fundamental about the nature of a sentence and the meaing of the words that compose it.

Drew,

If it's the Spirit doing the works how is a man judged as doing them.

 

[Eventide]

False choice. Let's be clear: The statement "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" is entirely consistent with what Paul says about being saved at the end by good works. Again - and it is really interesting no one is taking me on about this - here is what Paul's overall argument is:

The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

Since the Spirit cannot fail, you will indeed produce the good works!!!

So Paul can indeed assert that belief guarantees final salvation, but not because good works are not necessary for salvation: that would contradict this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Instead Paul can say "believe and you will be saved" precisely because the Spirit will produce the good works that save.

Then why go on and on Drew.. this is like 400 pages to say that ?

 

[smaller]

Then why go on and on Drew.. this is like 400 pages to say that ?

Legalists make a similar claim. That it is the H.S. in them that obeys the Law unto salvation.

s

 

[Eventide]

There are none good but one..

Legalists make a similar claim. That it is the H.S. in them that obeys the Law unto salvation.

s

I don't understand how that can be to salvation... if it's not us doing the good works etc.. we're saved to good works not because of them..

One thing I do know is that there is nothing good in me and everything good in our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[smaller]

Re: There are none good but one..

I don't understand how that can be to salvation... if it's not us doing the good works etc.. we're saved to good works not because of them..

One thing I do know is that there is nothing good in me and everything good in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We'd probably all do ourselves well to avoid bad works and not worry so much about detrimentally judging believers or the H.S. over the good works.

Any who have believed for a longer period of time does sooner or later question their relationship to bad works which we all assuredly have in relation to the Spirit dwelling in us. And those are also and usually prompted by testings, tribulations and chastisements of various sorts.

If belief in Christ made life a bowl of cherries, everyone would be on it.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

I usually reside here, relationally speaking, with God in Christ....

:help

s

 

[Thankful1]

[/SIZE]To be fair, this text from Paul does not, in my opinion, say "if you commit even oneact of slander" or "if you committed oneact of adultery", you will not inherit life. The text reads more as a statement that if these things become part of a general lifestyle, then, indeed, you will not inherit life.[/SIZE]

The Life stile understanding of what scripture means when referring to sin, is just a garbage theology.

A Christian is dead to sin. A spiritual Christian will not sin. A spiritual Christian has been begotten by God, and will not sin. If a person who has been begotten by God deliberately commits a sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€


(Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

 

[Drew]

Drew,

If it's the Spirit doing the works how is a man judged as doing them.

I was afraid that someone would ask this question.

And the reason for my fear is not that I do not believe there is a "good answer", it is because I believe the answer will seem too "complex" for some people's liking.

I will begin my attempt at giving my position on this as follows: Yes, the Spirit does generate the 'good works' - this is really quite clear, not least from Romans 8. But, hte believer has to "yield" to the Spirit - allow the Spirit to work in them. So there is indeed a sense in which we "do something" related to our final salvation.

Now I know what will happen - there will be a torrent of objections that I am denying the sufficiency of what Jesus has done. Well, I will deal that when and if it happens.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

Hi,

This presumes that Luther's teaching on works is correct, I submit that it is not. I believe Drew would agree with that statement. Therefore the works issue must be addressed in order for the argument you've presented to be validated.

Butch, Thanks for the effort you have put in. I appreciate it. For my part, as non-Christians are excluded from putting forward any other Faith, or arguing for it, I must withdraw from this debate.

Though repeating once again the fine words of the medieval English mystic Julian of Norwich........

If there be anywhere on earth a lover of God who is always kept safe, I know nothing of it, for it was not shown to me. But this was shown: that in falling and rising again we are always kept in that same precious love.

Which, at least for me, hold the answer to the various disputes here.

:yes

 

[Drew]

It seems to me that you're defeating your own argument. If it is the spear that does the works and the Spirit cannot fail the believer isn't doing any works. This sounds Calvinistic to me.

Do you believe a believer can be lost?

As per my last post, I have intentionally "glossed" some of the details of my position. Here is what I believe:

1. When a believer accepts Jesus, that believer is given the Holy Spirit;

2. The Holy Spirit will be the agency that generates the good works, unless the believer basically 'turns away' and refuses to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit;

3. If the believer does 'turn his back', he can indeed be lost.

If you hold the view that it is "unaided moral self-effort" that produces saving 'good works', I will (sadly) have to say that we have a fundamental disagreement.

 

[Drew]

Then why go on and on Drew.. this is like 400 pages to say that ?

The reason I go "on and on" is because I am hoping that some readers will be prompted to realize what I did about 5 years ago: We cannot simply ignore texts that do not fit into our view or, worse, rework them to say something other than what they are clearly saying.