Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Drew]

I agree!

At the risk of seeming cynical, I find that when Eph 2:8-9 is used to support the "good works don't matter" position, verses 11 and following are never mentioned.

Odd thing, that. Verse 11 begins with a "therefore", suggesting that what follows is a "working out of the implications" of 2:8-10. And, of course, verses 11 through 19 are precisely what one would expect Paul to say if, indeed, it is 'works of the Law of Moses' that do not save.

 

[Butch5]

At the risk of seeming cynical, I find that when Eph 2:8-9 is used to support the "good works don't matter" position, verses 11 and following are never mentioned.

Odd thing, that. Verse 11 begins with a "therefore", suggesting that what follows is a "working out of the implications" of 2:8-10. And, of course, verses 11 through 19 are precisely what one would expect Paul to say if, indeed, it is 'works of the Law of Moses' that do not save.

Hi Drew,

In all honesty, I believe it's because most Christians don't study they simply are repeating what they are taught. I can speak from experience, I did this very thing for many years. It wasn't until I was learning contradictory things from churches that I began to question things. Then listening to the Scriptures for hours a day I would hear things that contradicted what I was being taught. This started me on a search for the truth that continues to this day. Now I check things against the Scriptures. However, what has helped immensely is being familiar enough with the Scriptures to know if when something is said it aligns with Scripture.

I think the biggest problem is that many Christians simply don't want to invest the time necessary for study. A 45 minute Bible study once a week just isn't going to do it. It takes hours and hours of study and maybe even more importantly studying the correct material. It doesn’t' t matter much a person studies if what they study is wrong.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

Hello,

Unless you're Jewish you don't fall into that category that was chosen before the foundation of the world.

I don't think Mr Merton had it conrrect. Jesus called us to serve others not for an interior journey.

Hi butch,

Well, I will leave biblical analysis to others. Personally I see no reason to see the words in Ephesians by St Paul as relating solely to the Jewish race.

As far as the quote by Merton, such an "interior journey" inevitable unfolds into the "serving of others", as it did for Merton. True works unfold from faith, at least as I see it.

All the best

 

[smaller]

It doesn’t' t matter much a person studies if what they study is wrong.

If one studies on the basis that they are wrong they are apt to learn a little more.

Some will study and find out that from a factual position of weakness and infirmities they might in fact see more and are less apt to 'insulate' themselves from the more dire matters of Word that are meant to be found and personally applied. Most readers will hide and scurry from things they don't like or don't want to hear.

It's the 'natural' reaction to justify ones self. That really is an automatic response. Best to get over it.

When it comes to works any believer should be easily able to determine that all of us have both good works and bad works, period. And none have Perfect Works.

Some in this thread then say one must repent of the bad, and therefore they are excused from same. I might say, no, whatever has been done on either side of the ledgers will in fact be exposed, not covered up, in the judgment.

And in that 'factual' and 'honest' judgment of the Lord, both good and bad works WILL be measured on the scales for all of us.

So from there works adherents think they have in their own minds some tilting scale, that their good works will outweigh the bad and they therefore will be justified. As if they wouldn't justify every good work for themselves and try to forget about the bad.

If there are works believers here who hinge their salvation on same I might even say they are wasting time here when they should be doing same. Gotta pile up MORE on the good side of the scale ya know.

As it pertains to works, if one equates that for example to 'giving to the poor' Paul already told us we could give everything we have to the poor and even our bodies to be burned,

and if we did not love or have love, we would still be as nothing.

Works as a standard for salvation means one works to save their own hide.

Works are in fact a present reward for those who partake in same. It should bless ones heart in present time to give and give and give. That is present reward.

Then one must approach the subject of what is it one is giving? Their $. Obviously to feed, clothe, transport ones self to prison, visit the sick requires $. And there are a LOT of believers without any $ or very little of it.

So, is $ then the measure? If it is, the ones with more $ would seem to be able to produce 'more works.'

The widows mites is a good reminder. She cast in 'all' she had, and Jesus observed the value of that casting in remembrance.

For 2 mites did she buy His observance?

"but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

The cost of works is everything we have. Those who promote a works basis as measurement of salvation should, right now, have their pockets turned out and empty.

I already know in advance that measure will be met by 'no' works performers. The mind will fill with BUT'S and EXCUSES.

s

 

[Butch5]

Hi butch,

Well, I will leave biblical analysis to others. Personally I see no reason to see the words in Ephesians by St Paul as relating solely to the Jewish race.

As far as the quote by Merton, such an "interior journey" inevitable unfolds into the "serving of others", as it did for Merton. True works unfold from faith, at least as I see it.

All the best

Actually, If you look carefully at Paul's words in Ephesians 1:3-12 you can see that He is distingusihing between two groups of people, Jew and Gentile. If you're interested I can go into more detail.

 

[Drew]

Well, I will leave biblical analysis to others. Personally I see no reason to see the words in Ephesians by St Paul as relating solely to the Jewish race.

All right, lets look at verses 11 and following, which are set forth as a "therefore" to the verses that go before it:

Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised†by those who call themselves “the circumcision†(which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit

This is clearly about the dissolution of the Jew-Gentile distinction.

How is this possibly an unpacking of the implications of not being saved by 'goods works'?

By contrast, note how it makes perfect sense as the implications a statement that one is not saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses:

1. Only Jews can do the works of the Law of Moses (clearly true);

2. If one could be saved by doing the works of the Law of Moses, only Jews could be saved;

3. If the works of the Law of Moses do not save, then, yes, membership in the family of God is open to Gentiles too, and there is no distinction between the two groups in this respect.

Again: verses 11 and following makes such perfect sense out of a "works of the Law of Moses" reading of verse 9 that such a reading is most assuredly correct.

 

[Davies]

With all respect, how are you not simply rewording this passage?

You change what Paul has written from this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

...to this:

God “will repay each person according to what they have believed.”[a] 7 These people who are justified by their faith will demonstrate persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, and he will give eternal life on the basis of the faith, not the accompanying good works.

You basically change "according to what they have done" to "according to what they have believed" How can we proceed if you feel free to reword what Paul has written?

Two points:

1. I am quite sure you are a nice person and that you honestly believe that your "reworking" of the passage does not distort its intended meaning. Of course, for either of us, such an earnest belief can, of course, be mistaken.

2. You almost seem to be saying "Paul cannot be taken at his word in 2:6-7, hence we have to reword what he says, because unless we reword 2:6-7, we cannot make sense of other statements he makes about justification by faith". I believe to Paul's position to be this: The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works. Note how this view allows me to accept 2:6-7 at face value and to accept statements that we are justified by faith. I will have a lot more to say about this later.

For the moment, do you agree that you are essentially changing the "plain" or "surface" meaning of 2:6-7 in your answer above? If you disagree, we will proceed to more fundamental issues related to the structure of the english sentences that constitute 2:6-7, and the meanings of words in those sentences.

Good morning Drew,

I understand you think I'm changing the words of Paul, but rather I'm using the greater context of other inspired Scriptures instead of taking just taking one isolated quote.

I did give you John 3:36,

John 3:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


I did give you Paul's analysis of himself at the end of his life,


1 Timothy 1:15

New King James Version (NKJV)

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.



I gave the example of the thief on the cross, as well as the tax collector in the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector,



Luke 18:13-14

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


These are all examples showing what Paul is talking about regarding a man being justified by faith. I would agree with you that the abuse exists in turning the Gospel into license to sin. That's what Israel was doing in the Old Testament. But when someone shows this kind of behavior, they show their faith is suspect. We will know a tree by its fruit. I've heard it described that trusting in man's righteousness to justify himself is like trying to climb to heaven on a rope of sand. Offering your righteousness is a bribe, because let's face it, we can't act righteous all the time because we have to trust God all the time, and we don't. At best justification by works is only good until you sin. Your righteousness can't be separated from your unrighteousness and that's why we need an alien righteousness.



The only person who is justified by what they have done was Jesus. If my sins are imputed, His righteousness is imputed. Jesus fulfilled the law, that is anything we could do, and He grants us the gift of faith. We can do nothing without Him, and that includes having faith from which good deeds spring, sanctification not justification. Give God all the glory!


Along with the verses from the Bible I've quoted above, perhaps you would be willing to reconcile Romans 5:19 with justification by works.



Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.



- Davies

 

[Butch5]

If one studies on the basis that they are wrong they are apt to learn a little more.

Some will study and find out that from a factual position of weakness and infirmities they might in fact see more and are less apt to 'insulate' themselves from the more dire matters of Word that are meant to be found and personally applied. Most readers will hide and scurry from things they don't like or don't want to hear.

It's the 'natural' reaction to justify ones self. That really is an automatic response. Best to get over it.

When it comes to works any believer should be easily able to determine that all of us have both good works and bad works, period. And none have Perfect Works.

Some in this thread then say one must repent of the bad, and therefore they are excused from same. I might say, no, whatever has been done on either side of the ledgers will in fact be exposed, not covered up, in the judgment.

And in that 'factual' and 'honest' judgment of the Lord, both good and bad works WILL be measured on the scales for all of us.

So from there works adherents think they have in their own minds some tilting scale, that their good works will outweigh the bad and they therefore will be justified. As if they wouldn't justify every good work for themselves and try to forget about the bad.

If there are works believers here who hinge their salvation on same I might even say they are wasting time here when they should be doing same. Gotta pile up MORE on the good side of the scale ya know.

As it pertains to works, if one equates that for example to 'giving to the poor' Paul already told us we could give everything we have to the poor and even our bodies to be burned,

and if we did not love or have love, we would still be as nothing.

Works as a standard for salvation means one works to save their own hide.

Works are in fact a present reward for those who partake in same. It should bless ones heart in present time to give and give and give. That is present reward.

Then one must approach the subject of what is it one is giving? Their $. Obviously to feed, clothe, transport ones self to prison, visit the sick requires $. And there are a LOT of believers without any $ or very little of it.

So, is $ then the measure? If it is, the ones with more $ would seem to be able to produce 'more works.'

The widows mites is a good reminder. She cast in 'all' she had, and Jesus observed the value of that casting in remembrance.

For 2 mites did she buy His observance?

"but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."

The cost of works is everything we have. Those who promote a works basis as measurement of salvation should, right now, have their pockets turned out and empty.

I already know in advance that measure will be met by 'no' works performers. The mind will fill with BUT'S and EXCUSES.

s

I disagree that those who works are saving themselves. All the works in the world won't save anyone, it is God who saves. However, there are conditions to be met.

The parable of the talents is an example of works. The master gave different amounts to each of his servants. I believe it is the same with Christ, more will be required from some than others.

 

[Drew]

Good morning Drew,

I understand you think I'm changing the words of Paul, but rather I'm using the greater context of other inspired Scriptures instead of taking just taking one isolated quote.

That is simply not a legitimate argument. That would be like saying: "Even though Paul did say the sky was red in one place, the fact that he said the sky was blue in other places means that we need to "intepret" the one statement about the sky being red as meaning that the sky is blue".

Here is the really critical point: While, context, in this case the wider Biblical picture, does indeed legitimate resolving ambiguity in some other passage, it does not legitimate over-ruling what is unambiguously stated elsewhere in the scriptures.

If Paul had said this in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to "X".”[a] 7 To those who by manifest property "X", he will give eternal life.

...then you could argue that "X" - faith. X is ambiguous. But what you cannot do is replace this:

....according to what they have done:

to:

....according to what they have believed.

But, that is exactly what you are doing.

I am sorry, but you are changing Romans 2:6-7 to mean something that is incompatible with how the text reads as an assertion in English.

As to the other texts you list, I have already explained, multiple times, how "justification by faith" is compatible with "salvation by works at the end".

Here is the basic argument yet again:

The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

I suggest that this position works with all the texts you have provided. Are you prepared to make a case that this view I am ascribing to Paul in any way contradicts any scripture?

 

[Eventide]

IMO this argument comes down to one simple biblical fact..

That there are NONE GOOD BUT ONE, and that is God.

People simply will not believe that... they can't believe that there is nothing good in them (as Paul did) and everything good in Christ alone..

That's where ALL good works come from... God alone.. period, end of story.. and yet many simply can't get past this simple truth.

 

[Drew]

Or look at it like this: I challenge any reader to write a sentence in English of this form:

X will be given to you according to Y

...in which something other than Y is real "basis" for getting X.

 

[Drew]

IMO this argument comes down to one simple biblical fact..

That there are NONE GOOD BUT ONE, and that is God.

People simply will not believe that... they can't believe that there is nothing good in them (as Paul did) and everything good in Christ alone..

That's where ALL good works come from... God alone.. period, end of story.. and yet many simply can't get past this simple truth.

Who cannot get by this truth?

Certainly not me. I have been crystal clear: It is God in the form of the Holy Spirit who is the generator of the good works that save at the end.

Let me ask you the same question that I have asked others:

What is Paul saying here?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please don't tell me what he is saying elsewhere, what is he saying in these two verses.

Now let me clarify: I am not sure that you, like some others, are ignoring Romans 2:6-7. For all I know, you agree with 2:6-7 that final salvation is "according to good deeds", and are, as I have been, emphasizing that the "saving good works" are generated by the action of the Holy Spirit within the believer.

 

[smaller]

I disagree that those who works are saving themselves. All the works in the world won't save anyone, it is God who saves. However, there are conditions to be met.

The parable of the talents is an example of works. The master gave different amounts to each of his servants. I believe it is the same with Christ, more will be required from some than others.

It has already been factually observed that no believer does good works apart from the Spirit of Christ who is in them and with them to do so. And it is equally UNlikely that there will be ZERO good works if that is the case and it is equally UNlikely that same believer won't also have BAD WORKS.

It is impossible to hinge this matter upon the person alone as that is not the case. It's not a 'stand alone' matter and can not be if one is a believer.

And if God in Christ is in them, whom is going to judge whom? It is not just the believer alone to observe in the equation.

Put a person stranded on an island with a Bible who ends up believing and dies there, alone.

How could 'good works' possibly be a factor for same with no one else around to interact with?

There is also this fact of LOVE that every believer has regardless:

Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

s

 

[Eventide]

Who cannot get by this truth?

Certainly not me. I have been crystal clear: It is God in the form of the Holy Spirit who is the generator of the good works that save at the end.

Let me ask you the same question that I have asked others:

What is Paul saying here?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please don't tell me what he is saying elsewhere, what is he saying in these two verses.

Now let me clarify: I am not sure that you, like some others, are ignoring Romans 2:6-7. For all I know, you agree with 2:6-7 that final salvation is "according to good deeds", and are, as I have been, emphasizing that the "saving good works" are generated by the action of the Holy Spirit within the believer.

And yet it is also crystal clear that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH... is your argument here to change the doctrine of salvation to Grace by faith AND good works ?

I don't ignore Romans 2 at all, it applies perfectly imo to the whole of scripture.

 

[Drew]

And yet it is also crystal clear that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH... is your argument here to change the doctrine of salvation to Grace by faith AND good works ?

Basically yes, although I would need to explain further. I am claiming (and this is not my own idea, of course) that the reformation has indeed made some mistakes in its understanding of Paul re the issue of salvation. In short, notwithstanding all sorts of other things he believes, Paul believe that there will be a great judgement at which all humanity will appear and that eternal life will be granted according to, yes, what we have done.

I don't ignore Romans 2 at all, it applies perfectly imo to the whole of scripture.

Well, you did not answer my question. Here it is again:

What is Paul saying here?:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Please do not tell me about what he says elsewhere. What is Paul saying here - in these two particular verses.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

Actually, If you look carefully at Paul's words in Ephesians 1:3-12 you can see that He is distingusihing between two groups of people, Jew and Gentile. If you're interested I can go into more detail.

Please do, as I see St Paul addressing his words to the "saints" of Ephesus and the Faithful in Christ, who have been "chosen before the foundation of the world."

However, such is not the cornerstone of any rejection of salvation "by works". Such a cornerstone is simply the grace and the mercy of the divine, coupled with the gratitude of the person of faith, which will issue in a life of the "spirit", and has done so in people of all faiths.

 

[Drew]

Please do, as I see St Paul addressing his words to the "saints" of Ephesus and the Faithful in Christ, who have been "chosen before the foundation of the world."

If I may insert my snout.....

Yes Paul is addressing Gentiles (not Jews) at Ephesus. But the whole tenour of verses 11 through 19 is this: you Gentiles are just as much members of God's family as are Jews.

Why is this? Because you do not need to do the works of the Law of Moses to be saved!!

If that were indeed the "requirement", only Jews could be saved since only Jews are under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

 

[Davies]

That is simply not a legitimate argument. That would be like saying: "Even though Paul did say the sky was red in one place, the fact that he said the sky was blue in other places means that we need to "intepret" the one statement about the sky being red as meaning that the sky is blue".

Here is the really critical point: While, context, in this case the wider Biblical picture, does indeed legitimate resolving ambiguity in some other passage, it does not legitimate over-ruling what is unambiguously stated elsewhere in the scriptures.

If Paul had said this in Romans 2:

God “will repay each person according to "X".”[a] 7 To those who by manifest property "X", he will give eternal life.

...then you could argue that "X" - faith. X is ambiguous. But what you cannot do is replace this:

....according to what they have done:

to:

....according to what they have believed.

But, that is exactly what you are doing.

I am sorry, but you are changing Romans 2:6-7 to mean something that is incompatible with how the text reads as an assertion in English.

As to the other texts you list, I have already explained, multiple times, how "justification by faith" is compatible with "salvation by works at the end".

Here is the basic argument yet again:

The believer who, by faith alone, accepts Jesus is given the Spirit. The Spirit then generates good works. These are the good works that will be judged at the end and eternal life will be granted based on those works.

I suggest that this position works with all the texts you have provided. Are you prepared to make a case that this view I am ascribing to Paul in any way contradicts any scripture?

That's ok if you don't want to reconcile the passages I asked you to. Thank you for explaining what you have.

- Davies

 

[Butch5]

If I may insert my snout.....

Yes Paul is addressing Gentiles (not Jews) at Ephesus. But the whole tenour of verses 11 through 19 is this: you Gentiles are just as much members of God's family as are Jews.

Why is this? Because you do not need to do the works of the Law of Moses to be saved!!

If that were indeed the "requirement", only Jews could be saved since only Jews are under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

Hi Drew,

I believe we are talking about two different passages. I was referring to chapter 1 not chapter 2.

 

[Cobblers Apprentice]

If I may insert my snout.....

Yes Paul is addressing Gentiles (not Jews) at Ephesus. But the whole tenour of verses 11 through 19 is this: you Gentiles are just as much members of God's family as are Jews.

Why is this? Because you do not need to do the works of the Law of Moses to be saved!!

If that were indeed the "requirement", only Jews could be saved since only Jews are under the jurisdiction of the Law of Moses.

Drew, you may indeed insert your snout..................but can I get back to what I posted originally.....

the point being made is that our "salvation" does as I see it depend upon the constancy of the Divine and not on that of ourselves. If we are "chosen before the foundation of the world" then nothing we can do can make God love us more, nothing we can do can make God love us less.

For our "salvation" - or not - to change according to our latest "work", then we have a salvation of works, pure and simple.

True "works" spring from gratitude/faith.

All the best